[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Two turbos combined with "BMW Vtec" VANOS is tuned so the car will always have enough boost and not run out of breath or lag.

It is more complex than this. The reason there are two turbos is mainly to improve response (reduce lag). The same level of boost can be more efficiently achieved with a single bigger turbo but it would have more inertia and hence would take longer to spool.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Targeting higher boost doesn't mean laggier. In most cases DME is targeting lower boost than it would on WOT. Does that make a laggy car less laggy?

A little more on lagginess with S55 and N55:

S55 is inherently a little laggy compared to N55, if you look for the push with say 10+psi. Hence you'll see spool up at higher rpm on a dynograph.

But at a lower boost threshold, maybe 2-5psi, S55 gets there pretty quick, even quicker than N55. It all comes down to different turbo different characteristics.

It’s funny you say that, because I find the N55 in the M2 to have more lag than the S55.

[SeanWRT]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

It's funny you say that, because I find the N55 in the M2 to have more lag than the S55.

What you 'find' or 'feel' is correct. S55 does have better power response than N55, even N54 does too. On day to day driving, S55/N54 is more eager to get going for its smaller twin turbo gets up earlier albeit each of them driven by 3 cylinder.

What I also pointed out is that when you apply WOT or anything close to that, S55 takes more time to achieve turbo shaft rpm that's demanded with the power DME asks, meaning turbo lag. Those characteristics are well reflected on the dynograph. On 5th gear dyno pull, flooring it from 1k5, S55 will see its maximum torque at 3k-3k2 while M2 N55 does that at 2k3-2k5. On 4th both do it quicker but delta remains.

In real world at any time WOT, downshift to 4K+, neither N55 nor S55 will have instant power. Turbo still need time to spin up to make air flow and thus boost. Turbo lagginess exists and can't be avoided.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

What you 'find' or 'feel' is correct. S55 does have better power response than N55, even N54 does too. On day to day driving, S55/N54 is more eager to get going for its smaller twin turbo gets up earlier albeit each of them driven by 3 cylinder.

What I also pointed out is that when you apply WOT or anything close to that, S55 takes more time to achieve turbo shaft rpm that's demanded with the power DME asks, meaning turbo lag. Those characteristics are well reflected on the dynograph. On 5th gear dyno pull, flooring it from 1k5, S55 will see its maximum torque at 3k-3k2 while M2 N55 does that at 2k3-2k5. On 4th both do it quicker but delta remains.

In real world at any time WOT, downshift to 4K+, neither N55 nor S55 will have instant power. Turbo still need time to spin up to make air flow and thus boost. Turbo lagginess exists and can't be avoided.

I think you might be confusing turbo lag and boost threshold here.

I agree that all turbo engines have inherent lag to some extent though, but the S55 has less than the N55.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

It is more complex than this. The reason there are two turbos is mainly to improve response (reduce lag). The same level of boost can be more efficiently achieved with a single bigger turbo but it would have more inertia and hence would take longer to spool.

I get what you're saying but I always read that ever since the N54 days that each turbo releases different boost pressure under certain RPM range or as the ECU determine one (or two) is needed, this is what eliminates lag... This is better than one big turbo running out of boost and adding lag as it spools up.. Double VANOS and Valvetronic just adds to it as a supplement.

I don't want to keep going back and forth on this subject but I would like to get it correct, can you direct me to any articles or forum discussion where I could research a it little more in-depth. I will do my own search also. Thanx.

[Wilsm2]

Originally Posted by Levente_CSL

im pretty sure in Germany this car will cost more then 70k EUR

I agree

There is a big Jump in price from a standard M2 to M3/M4. You could see the jump is acceptable as they have different engines and more luxurious.

New M2C Same engine, same seats and more, for a bargain price less than a M3/M4 don't seam right. M3 and M4 little difference in price but the M2 is in another postcode lol

[Bluenose-2er]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

What you 'find' or 'feel' is correct. S55 does have better power response than N55, even N54 does too. On day to day driving, S55/N54 is more eager to get going for its smaller twin turbo gets up earlier albeit each of them driven by 3 cylinder.

FWIW, moving from a 135i with N54 to an M2 with N55 that was not my experience at all. My N55 M2 is much smoother than my N54 135i.


Still waiting to find out what a "weight-optimized twin turbo" means.

[boostspoon]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Yep, when ONE turbo runs out of boost, the second turbo is already primed and ready to go.. That's why having two turbos are special, they're like a tag team..

Please don’t explain how turbo systems work 🤦

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Poochie

I get what you're saying but I always read that ever since the N54 days that each turbo releases different boost pressure under certain RPM range or as the ECU determine one (or two) is needed, this is what eliminates lag... This is better than one big turbo running out of boost and adding lag as it spools up.. Double VANOS and Valvetronic just adds to it as a supplement.

I don't want to keep going back and forth on this subject but I would like to get it correct, can you direct me to any articles or forum discussion where I could research a it little more in-depth. I will do my own search also. Thanx.

Sorry to say, but either you misread or what you read was wrong.

What you describe is possible in sequential turbo arrangement like on the Mazda RX8 rotary engine or the triple turbo M550d. But it simply isn't the case for the turbo arrangement on the N54 and S55.

When turbos are setup in parallel, such as with the N54 and S55, they both work concurrently at the same level. Each turbo is fed by their own individual trio of cylinders, so the engine would not be in balanced operation if they were set to supply different boost levels.

As I posted previously, a large turbo is actually more efficient at producing large amounts of boost. However, a large turbo has much more inertia and needs more mass flow to operate, so it will have a much higher boost threshold and significantly more lag. A parallel multi turbo arrangement is a compromise to be able to achieve higher boost levels while minimizing lag and lowering the boost threshold.

Vanos is BMW's designation for variable valve timing while Valvetronic is BMW's designation for variable valve lift. These technologies can also be applied on normally aspirated engines or turbo engines of different configurations. They can be tuned to optimize turbo operation, but their presence is not related to the quantity nor the arrangement of turbos.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Sorry to say, but either you misread or what you read was wrong.

What you describe is possible in sequential turbo arrangement like on the Mazda RX8 rotary engine or the triple turbo M550d. But it simply isn't the case for the turbo arrangement on the N54 and S55.

When turbos are setup in parallel, such as with the N54 and S55, they both work concurrently at the same level. Each turbo is fed by their own individual trio of cylinders, so the engine would not be in balanced operation if they were set to supply different boost levels.

As I posted previously, a large turbo is actually more efficient at producing large amounts of boost. However, a large turbo has much more inertia and needs more mass flow to operate, so it will have a much higher boost threshold and significantly more lag. A parallel multi turbo arrangement is a compromise to be able to achieve higher boost levels while minimizing lag and lowering the boost threshold.

Vanos is BMW's designation for variable valve timing while Valvetronic is BMW's designation for variable valve lift. These technologies can also be applied on normally aspirated engines or turbo engines of different configurations. They can be tuned to optimize turbo operation, but their presence is not related to the quantity nor the arrangement of turbos.

Thank you very much for the detail clarification and also for not using it as an opportunity to be condescending.. I guess I had it wrong. Beautiful M4 BTW

[Artemis]

Earlier today BMW M posted this picture on its Instagram account + #M2 (see ):



But don't be fooled: that ain't the new 788M wheel (M2 Competition). To my eyes that's the 405M 2-Series M Performance wheel (19" forged light alloy wheels) of Autumn 2013 (see here). In Spring 2014 BMW presented the virtual BMW Vision Concept GT6 featuring exactly those wheels, though with full black finish + red-colored rim protector.

Posted by the same photographer (https://www.instagram.com/thomasschornfotografie/?hl=en) (M2 LBB under neon lights):





For the record: 405M 2-Series M Performance wheel (Autumn 2013) (the bi-color BMW GT6 Vision concept wheel):

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Thank you very much for the detail clarification and also for not using it as an opportunity to be condescending.. I guess I had it wrong. Beautiful M4 BTW

CanAutM3 is a wealth of knowledge.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Earlier today BMW M posted this picture on its Instagram account + #M2 (see ):

But don't be fooled: that ain't the new 788M wheel (M2 Competition). To my eyes that's the 2-Series M Performance wheel (19" forged light alloy wheels) of Autumn 2013 (see here). In Spring 2014 BMW presented the virtual BMW Vision Concept GT6 featuring exactly those wheels, though with full black finish + red-colored rim protector.

Posted by the same photographer (https://www.instagram.com/thomasschornfotografie/?hl=en) (M2 LBB under neon lights):

For the record: 2-Series M Performance wheel (Autumn 2013) (the bi-color BMW GT6 Vision concept wheel):

I think they look better with the two-tone application, rather than the all black/gray. Can't wait to see them for real.

[n55co]

Originally Posted by Levente_CSL

im pretty sure in Germany this car will cost more then 70k EUR

any reason why it should be more expensiv then in the UK?

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by n55co

any reason why it should be more expensiv then in the UK?

Brexit.

[chmura]

So the M2c will be revealed tomorrow April 18 in Germany?

[thaalrasha]

it's a great evolution, I just personally don't like the S55 sound, otherwise i would have bought an M4 for cheaper than i got my M2...

[n55co]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Brexit.

shouldn't it be the other way around then
cant wait for the final pricing

[AlpsRider]

Originally Posted by Poochie

An automotive journalist should of mentioned that the price conversion includes VAT. But I guess you have to consider the source..

All prices for goods throughout Europe and the UK include VAT, it's just the way they do it. It is common knowledge there.

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I think you might be confusing turbo lag and boost threshold here.

I agree that all turbo engines have inherent lag to some extent though, but the S55 has less than the N55.

You are not allowed to say that on the M2 forum.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

You are not allowed to say that on the M2 forum.

I guess I'll be allowed to say so on the M2-Competition forum

[M2PDX]

Originally Posted by JRobUSC

CarFax service records (or lack thereof) don’t mean anything. Many dealers don’t report to CarFax because they don’t want to share their customer info, and often the items that do show up on CarFax aren’t what was actually done. Bottom line, if you want to know the real service history of any BMW, get it from any BMW dealer, not from CarFax or a third party.

Thanks for the snarky response. LOL.

The vast majority of dealer services are recorded and picked up by Carfax. Sometimes an oil change isn't listed specifically, and it may be listed as "scheduled maintenance performed." So then I call the dealer.

Autocheck is a whole 'nother issue (and basically a scam).

So, let me put it this way: "You wouldn't believe how many dealers I've called to ask about a service record for an M2 and found there were no oil changes done until 9,000, or 10,000 or 12,000 miles." Some dealers will give you that information if you have a VIN #. Others won't unless you own the car. In which case, I pass on that car.

Trust me, I'm doing my homework before I buy.

Would you want to buy a car that had an owner who didn't care about maintaining their car? I wouldn't.