[voyagergab]

Originally Posted by arwin

For me, I'd just want to make sure all is good with the car.

Thanks and what is the process of doing it?

[arwin]

Originally Posted by voyagergab

Thanks and what is the process of doing it?

With BM3, I think they have it built into the product UI where you flash the tune.

I don't think VF has that capability unless you add MHD or something as someone previously posted, but then I think u would have to pay extra to get that logging.

[F87_LCI]

MY car is finally ready for a tune as I just had the IC, charge, boost and inlet pipes replaced earlier this week. Also have 200 CEL DP and MPE. Intake is on the way (if it ever gets here). Then I should be FBO.

Been on the fence about which way to go, so I am interested to see the results of this poll/thread.

Like the OP I am a bit "under-knowlegded" in this area, so I am trying to do as much due diligence as I can before I commit to one platform.

I thought I had settled on BM3, but then I have been seeing guys like Nezil having knock issues and I'm wondering just how "safe" these tunes actually are. Just don't want to blow something up, lol.

Here is a shot of my best run with all the new "gear" in the car. I understand that this data is not the same as running the car on a dyno, but I figure that a "before and after" is a valid before and after as long as you use the same measurement tool.

Is anyone able to tell me what numbers (% increase) to expect with any of these tunes?

[MTWO]

You put bad octane in the car and you’ll see it too and for him he also reported seeing it on his stock tune. Is the stock tune not safe?

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by MTWO

You put bad octane in the car and you’ll see it too and for him he also reported seeing it on his stock tune. Is the stock tune not safe?

I didn't put 'bad' fuel in the car, it was Shell V-Power, from a high traffic area, so I'm sure it was pretty fresh. It was of course California E10 91 Octane, which is known to not be very good.

Knock was present with the stock tune as well, as you said, but for the reasons I'm about to state in my next post, I don't believe this is anything to worry about now.

My current 'plan', is to either run the 91 AKI Stage 2 OTS tune or a custom 91 AKI tune to optimise for my setup, and also have the 93 AKI OTS tunes ready to use as and when if I'm able to. I've just bought a VP Racing 5 gallon container, and will fill this with 100 AKI ethanol free fuel, which I can mix with CA 91 to get me to ~94 AKI. I don't plan on doing this very often, because of the hassle and cost, but I'd like to have the option, and I'd rather not use octane booster.

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by F87_LCI

I thought I had settled on BM3, but then I have been seeing guys like Nezil having knock issues and I'm wondering just how "safe" these tunes actually are. Just don't want to blow something up, lol.

Oh gosh, please don't take my comments as a reason not to go with BM3. As SeanWRT said, the logging options of BM3 (and I believe MHD) are very valuable, even though they can be somewhat worrying if you don't understand what you're seeing (like I did!).

If you were to go with the other popular tune, VF's Hex, then I'm sure it's a good tune. It is load and forget, doesn't offer logging, or customisation, and it's a bit more expensive. People say that they have good customer support, but I emailed VF with some questions and didn't get a response, posted in the VF thread and didn't get a response either, so I gave up, but that doesn't make the tune bad by any means. It has many followers and supporters and that says a lot.

proTUNING Freaks has responded within 24 hours to me, and that, combined with the support from SeanWRT and tehboost, was what made me go with BM3.

I started logging out of interest, and the 'knock detected' events scared me. I'm an engineer, but not a turbo engine engineer, and I knew that knock was bad, and that scared me. I spoke to a few friends who had tuned turbo cars, and read a bit around the internet about turbo engines, and concluded that the knock sensor system is a crucial part of a modern turbo engine.

In order to get as much performance as is possible from the fuel, the DME runs a fine line up to having the engine knock, then quickly pulls timing / adjusts fueling / boost pressure to make sure it doesn't get serious. With lower octane fuels, like the CA 91 AKI that is the best we have in pumps here, this line is lower than 93 AKI ethanol free fuel available in other parts of North America, and consequently, the DME ends up reducing the power these engines produce for cars in California, automatically...

I'd just flashed the firmware, and therefore reset adaptations. The DME is therefore trying to work out what octane fuel I have, and adjust it's behaviour accordingly. There is a chance that during this learning period, slightly more early knock might occur, but it's still nothing to worry about, and that's why it happens with the stock tune as well.

So I've personally logged the BM3 91 AKI Stage 1 OTS tune and the stock tune, both with CA E10 91 AKI fuel and now with a blend of 100 AKI that brings me up above 93 AKI. I'm seeing some amount of 'knock detected' events in all of these cases, though with better octane, I do see slightly less. To my knowledge, no-one has ever logged the load and forget tunes like VF's Hex, but I'm pretty sure there would be 'knock detected' events with that tune as well, but again, nothing to be concerned about.

One final thought... Any OTS tune is always going to be a compromise, because it's not optimised for your specific engine, bolt ons, fuel and local weather. It's likely to be somewhat conservative because of that, but the safest tune, would be a custom tune, done by a good tuner. BM3 and MHD are ideal platforms for that.

[Nezil]

This article was very enlightening, because it describes the use of a knock sensor on a 1982 Saab 900 Turbo engine. It's a crude design by today's standards, but its simplicity makes it easy to understand, and gave me some peace of mind:

Turbocharger with a brain

[SeanWRT]

Originally Posted by Nezil

To my knowledge, no-one has ever logged the load and forget tunes like VF's Hex.

Well, I did. And I logged AA too.

VF has a similar load curve to BM3 of early 2017 versions, but they achieve target via different approaches.

BM3 evolved vastly in the Nov 2017 update (I was one of the testers) and dominate the competitions since then. That isn't an opinion, that is the fact from log testing. I'd call post Nov 2017 BM3 the BM3 LCI.

AA is mild and conservative at the beginning but market seems don't agree. They raise the aggressiveness low down later on to please those who need to know their turbo is flowing 18psi in peak somewhere.

Funny stories happen in this little game all the time. I'll stop from there

[arwin]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Well, I did. And I logged AA too.

VF has a similar load curve to BM3 of early 2017 versions, but they achieve target via different approaches. BM3 evolved vastly in the Nov 2017 update (I was one of the testers) and dominate the competitions since then. That isn't an opinion, that is the fact from log testing.

AA is mild and conservative at the beginning but market seems don't agree. They raise the aggressiveness low down later on to please those who need to know their turbo is flowing 18psi in peak somewhere.

Funny stories happen in this little game all the time. I'll stop from there

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Well, I did. And I logged AA too.

VF has a similar load curve to BM3 of early 2017 versions, but they achieve target via different approaches. BM3 evolved vastly in the Nov 2017 update (I was one of the testers) and dominate the competitions since then. That isn't an opinion, that is the fact from log testing.

AA is mild and conservative at the beginning but market seems don't agree. They raise the aggressiveness low down later on to please those who need to know their turbo is flowing 18psi in peak somewhere.

Funny stories happen in this little game all the time. I'll stop from there

what tools did you use to log the vf tune?

[SeanWRT]

Originally Posted by arwin

what tools did you use to log the vf tune?

Mostly JB4.

Also a US friend logged VF with BM3 logger.

[arwin]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Mostly JB4.

Also a US friend logged VF with BM3 logger.

looks like I won't be able to log anything without more investment. lol

[F87_LCI]

Originally Posted by Nezil

Oh gosh, please don't take my comments as a reason not to go with BM3. As SeanWRT said, the logging options of BM3 (and I believe MHD) are very valuable, even though they can be somewhat worrying if you don't understand what you're seeing (like I did!).

If you were to go with the other popular tune, VF's Hex, then I'm sure it's a good tune. It is load and forget, doesn't offer logging, or customisation, and it's a bit more expensive. People say that they have good customer support, but I emailed VF with some questions and didn't get a response, posted in the VF thread and didn't get a response either, so I gave up, but that doesn't make the tune bad by any means. It has many followers and supporters and that says a lot.

proTUNING Freaks has responded within 24 hours to me, and that, combined with the support from SeanWRT and tehboost, was what made me go with BM3.

I started logging out of interest, and the 'knock detected' events scared me. I'm an engineer, but not a turbo engine engineer, and I knew that knock was bad, and that scared me. I spoke to a few friends who had tuned turbo cars, and read a bit around the internet about turbo engines, and concluded that the knock sensor system is a crucial part of a modern turbo engine.

In order to get as much performance as is possible from the fuel, the DME runs a fine line up to having the engine knock, then quickly pulls timing / adjusts fueling / boost pressure to make sure it doesn't get serious. With lower octane fuels, like the CA 91 AKI that is the best we have in pumps here, this line is lower than 93 AKI ethanol free fuel available in other parts of North America, and consequently, the DME ends up reducing the power these engines produce for cars in California, automatically...

I'd just flashed the firmware, and therefore reset adaptations. The DME is therefore trying to work out what octane fuel I have, and adjust it's behaviour accordingly. There is a chance that during this learning period, slightly more early knock might occur, but it's still nothing to worry about, and that's why it happens with the stock tune as well.

So I've personally logged the BM3 91 AKI Stage 1 OTS tune and the stock tune, both with CA E10 91 AKI fuel and now with a blend of 100 AKI that brings me up above 93 AKI. I'm seeing some amount of 'knock detected' events in all of these cases, though with better octane, I do see slightly less. To my knowledge, no-one has ever logged the load and forget tunes like VF's Hex, but I'm pretty sure there would be 'knock detected' events with that tune as well, but again, nothing to be concerned about.

One final thought... Any OTS tune is always going to be a compromise, because it's not optimised for your specific engine, bolt ons, fuel and local weather. It's likely to be somewhat conservative because of that, but the safest tune, would be a custom tune, done by a good tuner. BM3 and MHD are ideal platforms for that.

Wow. Thanks for the great answer. I have access to 94 octane and only put this in the car. If I was to run the 93 OTS BM3 map, how does this change the characteristics of the car? Meaning does the change come over the entire power band or do you have to really get on the throttle to notice? FWIW, I pretty much run in Sport+ all the time. I just prefer the throttle response in this mode.

[voyagergab]

So who can tune bootmod3 remotely to account for a specific car, fuel, weather etc.?

[horsepower_and_hounds]

Originally Posted by voyagergab

So who can tune bootmod3 remotely to account for a specific car, fuel, weather etc.?

Once you purchase a license and set your account up there are a whole list of tuners in the database that can custom tune. I know Carythelableguy that is on the M3/M4 forum can. Great guy, main expertise is S55 but he has offered to custom tune for me. I will go that route later if I decide to complicate my platform.

But to start off you can go the OTS like i am to get feet wet and a feeling of your car on a tune

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by F87_LCI

Wow. Thanks for the great answer. I have access to 94 octane and only put this in the car. If I was to run the 93 OTS BM3 map, how does this change the characteristics of the car? Meaning does the change come over the entire power band or do you have to really get on the throttle to notice? FWIW, I pretty much run in Sport+ all the time. I just prefer the throttle response in this mode.

I can't say for sure what the BM3 93 OTS maps are like, but I assume they're similar to the 91 OTS maps, but perhaps a little less conservative.

From my perspective, the 91 OTS map brought the car to life. I've tried to describe what I mean by that before, and I'll try again now...

With the stock tune, I felt that the car was far from slow, but you had to work at it to get the performance; it wasn't 'effortlessly fast'. This made the character of the car bipolar. It was either pretty pedestrian performance, or aggressively fast performance.

My previous car was a Jaguar XF, from the year when they made a 5.0 V8 NA model. It had 385hp and 380 lb-ft of torque. The power delivery was very very smooth, and you could drive fast, without scaring your women passengers. Obviously the M2 is a very different type of car, but I was always frustrated that it didn't feel fast if I was just driving around town in medium traffic.

After the BM3 Stage 1 91 OTS tune, the comfort mode is much improved. There is still the hesitancy pulling away, but other than that, it's great. Much more push on part throttle, and this isn't just due to throttle mapping I don't think. Comfort now feels more like something between Sport and Sport+ in stock tune, but there is more to give as you press the pedal further, so it's not just mapping. Sport takes this up a bit more, with the throttle feeling like Sport+ in the stock tune, but again, as I said, more as you press the pedal further.

So to answer your question... the change comes over the whole power band, yes, and the throttle response is improved.

[F87_LCI]

Originally Posted by Nezil

The power delivery was very very smooth, and you could drive fast, without scaring your women passengers.

LOL! I don't mind scaring the wife a little...then maybe she won't want to get it. After changing the suspension, I had the car corner balanced for only me so the extra 110lbs wasn't accounted for

Ok, that's it. I'm biting the bullet. Ordering BM3 right now. Any advice on install that isn't in the install thread? Do I actually need to keep a battery charger on the car?

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by F87_LCI

Ok, that's it. I'm biting the bullet. Ordering BM3 right now. Any advice on install that isn't in the install thread? Do I actually need to keep a battery charger on the car?

I wish there was a referral discount... I need the OTS tune pack still - hint hint proTUNING Freaks!

I don't think anyone would advise you NOT to keep a battery charger on the car, but I also don't know anyone who does this. A good indication of the state of your battery, is if the Auto Stop Start is functioning. Go for a drive, and if that kicks in, then you're probably safe to flash without a charger. That's the rule I go by anyway. Of course its on you though; I take no responsibility!

The only think I would suggest you do, is either build up a Raspberry Pi or buy the OBD Agent Hardware Device (which is exactly the same thing), so that you can flash and log using your phone rather than a laptop. I've ordered a slimline OBD extension and plan to have the cabling setup so that it's extremely easy and discrete to plug in the OBD Agent any time I want. It's a bit annoying having the E-Net cable over your legs while you're driving and a laptop on the passenger seat!

[BMW DIY Guy]

Originally Posted by F87_LCI

LOL! I don't mind scaring the wife a little...then maybe she won't want to get it. After changing the suspension, I had the car corner balanced for only me so the extra 110lbs wasn't accounted for

Ok, that's it. I'm biting the bullet. Ordering BM3 right now. Any advice on install that isn't in the install thread? Do I actually need to keep a battery charger on the car?

I absolutely put my car on the trickle charger when I did the FIRST flash from Active Autowerke. They strongly recommended it, and I had one anyway handy.. the first flash took a significant amount of time, but all of the updates since then have been quick.

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Well, I did. And I logged AA too.



AA is mild and conservative at the beginning but market seems don't agree. They raise the aggressiveness low down later on to please those who need to know their turbo is flowing 18psi in peak somewhere.

Funny stories happen in this little game all the time. I'll stop from there

Sean I beg to differ unless proof is provided.
Since BMW DIY GUY has the AA tune and has gone through different revisions in all fairness he can give more feedback on what the AA tune feels like in his car. Hopefully a new log will be posted soon.
Not sure what one would consider conservative. I can’t go off of the California nor Washington state cars because these cars with the AA tune do run a more conservative tune BMW GUY included due to their 91 octane fuel vs our 93 octane here in the North Eastern US.
I have the tune but have yet to install it ,nor my fmic due to circumstances . It will be done soon and I will report.

Originally Posted by Nezil

I can't say for sure what the BM3 93 OTS maps are like, but I assume they're similar to the 91 OTS maps, but perhaps a little less conservative.

From my perspective, the 91 OTS map brought the car to life. I've tried to describe what I mean by that before, and I'll try again now...

With the stock tune, I felt that the car was far from slow, but you had to work at it to get the performance; it wasn't 'effortlessly fast'. This made the character of the car bipolar. It was either pretty pedestrian performance, or aggressively fast performance.

My previous car was a Jaguar XF, from the year when they made a 5.0 V8 NA model. It had 385hp and 380 lb-ft of torque. The power delivery was very very smooth, and you could drive fast, without scaring your women passengers. Obviously the M2 is a very different type of car, but I was always frustrated that it didn't feel fast if I was just driving around town in medium traffic.

After the BM3 Stage 1 91 OTS tune, the comfort mode is much improved. There is still the hesitancy pulling away, but other than that, it's great. Much more push on part throttle, and this isn't just due to throttle mapping I don't think. Comfort now feels more like something between Sport and Sport+ in stock tune, but there is more to give as you press the pedal further, so it's not just mapping. Sport takes this up a bit more, with the throttle feeling like Sport+ in the stock tune, but again, as I said, more as you press the pedal further.

So to answer your question... the change comes over the whole power band, yes, and the throttle response is improved.

The characteristics of a normally aspirated V8 will always feel smoother than a 3.0 l inline force induction 6 under most and every circumstance due to its physical nature. Drive the E39M5 or even the newer FI M5/6 and you will see the same V8 smoothness and torque. That goes for any V8.

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by Nezil

One final thought... Any OTS tune is always going to be a compromise, because it's not optimised for your specific engine, bolt ons, fuel and local weather. It's likely to be somewhat conservative because of that, but the safest tune, would be a custom tune, done by a good tuner. BM3 and MHD are ideal platforms for that.

When you talk about a compromise are we talking about safety or power. An OTS tune would be safer than a custom tune because a custom tune is meant to try to get more or as much power as possible which can sometimes create a safety compromise due to running a tune that is on the edge,advanced timing,more or less boost based on timing,fuel octane etc. I have seen way more cars blowup with a custom tune than I have ever seen compared to cars with OTS tunes. So as far as safety OTS will be it. There are far less compromises where safety is concerned but as far as power is concerned I can more or less see why you would say there is a compromise and that would certainly be because the tuner wants to protect the car due to unknown real situations,gas octane,altitude,engine mods. Can be confusing when you say Compromise and conservative.