[Egress]

I own a 17 DCT M2 and I really want to buy the new bigger brakes when they release it as an MPerformance Upgrade!
Does anyone of you know when it will be available and what the estimated costs are?
How much could be asked for lightly used M2 brakes about 7000km old?

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Agree with you here.. they will squeal more and then less depending on how much pad material is embedded on the rotor.

I drove my car to a track event this past weekend.. .... drove my car hard Saturday am in two sessions with DSC off.. and very little squeal.. My GF drove the car two sessions that afternoon with DSC on and they began squealing like a stuck pig (on track even!) and when I drove back to the hotel even the lightest touch of the brakes made a loud squawl. The next day I drove on track with DSC off on Sunday and cleaned them up again and the squeal went away mostly... just in time for the trek home thankfully.

I agree with your comments.


With regards to HAWK vs PF-C brake pads..

Hawk is the KING of initial bite. If you want LOTS of braking force at the moment you hit the pedal.. then Hawk Pads are for you. Many people get addicted to this initial bite.. Once you go Hawk.. you probably won't go away from them.

However... I personally prefer a pad with torque characteristics that give MORE torque the harder you push the pedal.... not just a bunch of torque on the initial press.. For me... when I am braking on track...I want the pads to have good initial torque... and *more* torque when I need more braking force. In other words... if I have made my initial braking effort.. and realize.. OH CRAP.. I need to brake even harder.. I want my brakes to work even harder too.

So.. while some prefer more initial torque.. .. no way man.. I want brake torque equal through the travel.. or.. more brake torque the harder that I push the pedal...... I am an Performance Friction fan all the way and have been for two decades or more. Another good pad with torque characteristics that are steady through the pedal travel is Ferodo.

If you think Hawks are grabby try some Cobalts, you will launch your head through the windshield on accident.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

If you think Hawks are grabby try some Cobalts, you will launch your head through the windshield on accident.

LOL True Story! i almost mentioned Cobalt.. i only used one set.. XP something.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Agree with you here.. they will squeal more and then less depending on how much pad material is embedded on the rotor.

I drove my car to a track event this past weekend.. .... drove my car hard Saturday am in two sessions with DSC off.. and very little squeal.. My GF drove the car two sessions that afternoon with DSC on and they began squealing like a stuck pig (on track even!) and when I drove back to the hotel even the lightest touch of the brakes made a loud squawl. The next day I drove on track with DSC off on Sunday and cleaned them up again and the squeal went away mostly... just in time for the trek home thankfully.

I agree with your comments.


With regards to HAWK vs PF-C brake pads..

Hawk is the KING of initial bite. If you want LOTS of braking force at the moment you hit the pedal.. then Hawk Pads are for you. Many people get addicted to this initial bite.. Once you go Hawk.. you probably won't go away from them.

However... I personally prefer a pad with torque characteristics that give MORE torque the harder you push the pedal.... not just a bunch of torque on the initial press.. For me... when I am braking on track...I want the pads to have good initial torque... and *more* torque when I need more braking force. In other words... if I have made my initial braking effort.. and realize.. OH CRAP.. I need to brake even harder.. I want my brakes to work even harder too.

So.. while some prefer more initial torque.. .. no way man.. I want brake torque equal through the travel.. or.. more brake torque the harder that I push the pedal...... I am an Performance Friction fan all the way and have been for two decades or more. Another good pad with torque characteristics that are steady through the pedal travel is Ferodo.

I knew that going in, that the PFC's would be as you described, which actually sounded good on paper, but in reality is not what works for me. I am smooth with all my inputs, and thus, having a pad that doesn't have a lot of initial bite probably is not for me. It would be one thing if the PFC's would end up grabbing like I am used to, but it seems to me, even when I start to really step on them, they just refuse to bite as much as I want. I drove a friend's car back to back and he has Stoptech brakes and their pads and they felt much better than the PFC's also.

I should say that I only switched the front pads, and the rears are still Hawks, but I don't think that matters. Maybe it is something else? Rotors glazed or brake fluid not good anymore? The reality is that my times are very close, so the results are not much different, but it feels like I am having to brake a bit sooner, which should be slower.

I have a track day next Friday and will bleed my brakes and put the old Hawk pads on for a couple of sessions. They still have a few mm on them and i'll see if I can make rhyme or reason of what is going on.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by norMcal

I knew that going in, that the PFC's would be as you described, which actually sounded good on paper, but in reality is not what works for me. I am smooth with all my inputs, and thus, having a pad that doesn't have a lot of initial bite probably is not for me. It would be one thing if the PFC's would end up grabbing like I am used to, but it seems to me, even when I start to really step on them, they just refuse to bite as much as I want. I drove a friend's car back to back and he has Stoptech brakes and their pads and they felt much better than the PFC's also.

I should say that I only switched the front pads, and the rears are still Hawks, but I don't think that matters. Maybe it is something else? Rotors glazed or brake fluid not good anymore? The reality is that my times are very close, so the results are not much different, but it feels like I am having to brake a bit sooner, which should be slower.

I have a track day next Friday and will bleed my brakes and put the old Hawk pads on for a couple of sessions. They still have a few mm on them and i'll see if I can make rhyme or reason of what is going on.

track pads really do impart a lot of materials onto the rotors. In my experience, the pad materials between Hawk and PFC are not very compatible. It might even take a full event for the PFC pads to transfer enough onto the rotors for them to become effective.

For people that swap pads for street and track.. it helps to stay within the brand... Just as if one were to play tennis or basketball... if you normally wear a Reebok or a Nike show for casual activity.. one probably should keep with the same brand for heavy activity.


I imagine if you swap pads back... it likely may take some time for the Hawk pad material to transfer back onto the rotors before the Hawk pads feel like they are in good order again.. I would endeavor to give the PFC a second chance.. only because they likely are just coming into their own with regards to pad transfer. Clearly you aren't radically SLOWER.. so that's a good thing.

interesting on the feeling that you need to brake sooner with the PFCs... I guess that it may technically be true.. that one can feel the need to brake a little sooner with the PFCs because of the lack of the sensation of the initial bite of the hawk pads.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the PFC are worse.. to me.. the high initial bite also creates heavier front end dive. getting on the brakes a little sooner and not having the weight transfer forward as much may end up with better chassis balance at turn in.

I would trust the lap times...but certainly driver comfort is a concern. If you have a chance to check out the PFC a second time.. I would do so... if you still dislike them then rip them off and go back to Hawk. As stated previously., the Hawk initial bite is very addictive.. and many people once they have that sensation... cant get away from it as it becomes a bit of a security blanket.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

track pads really do impart a lot of materials onto the rotors. In my experience, the pad materials between Hawk and PFC are not very compatible. It might even take a full event for the PFC pads to transfer enough onto the rotors for them to become effective.

For people that swap pads for street and track.. it helps to stay within the brand... Just as if one were to play tennis or basketball... if you normally wear a Reebok or a Nike show for casual activity.. one probably should keep with the same brand for heavy activity.


I imagine if you swap pads back... it likely may take some time for the Hawk pad material to transfer back onto the rotors before the Hawk pads feel like they are in good order again.. I would endeavor to give the PFC a second chance.. only because they likely are just coming into their own with regards to pad transfer. Clearly you aren't radically SLOWER.. so that's a good thing.

interesting on the feeling that you need to brake sooner with the PFCs... I guess that it may technically be true.. that one can feel the need to brake a little sooner with the PFCs because of the lack of the sensation of the initial bite of the hawk pads.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the PFC are worse.. to me.. the high initial bite also creates heavier front end dive. getting on the brakes a little sooner and not having the weight transfer forward as much may end up with better chassis balance at turn in.

I would trust the lap times...but certainly driver comfort is a concern. If you have a chance to check out the PFC a second time.. I would do so... if you still dislike them then rip them off and go back to Hawk. As stated previously., the Hawk initial bite is very addictive.. and many people once they have that sensation... cant get away from it as it becomes a bit of a security blanket.

It depends what Hawk pad. I tried HPS 5.0 and they had poor initial bite for me but YMMV. I know the HP+ and dedicated track pads are much more aggressive.

[Cavpilot2k]

Question:
How many members here complaining about the additional rotational mass and curb weight of the new brakes are actually competitive racers with anything at stake beyond pride?

None?

Thought so.

So either way, does a tenth of a second added to or subtracted to your weekend track warrior lap time at Watkins Glen or Willow Springs really matter one iota?

No?

Well then how about we just enjoy the car and stop nit-picking irrelevant minutiae?

Just my two cents, but trying to put this all in perspective.

[Twt]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

Question:
How many members here complaining about the additional rotational mass and curb weight of the new brakes are actually competitive racers with anything at stake beyond pride?

None?

Thought so.

So either way, does a tenth of a second added to or subtracted to your weekend track warrior lap time at Watkins Glen or Willow Springs really matter one iota?

No?

Well then how about we just enjoy the car and stop nit-picking irrelevant minutiae?

Just my two cents, but trying to put this all in perspective.

I am afraid you may have it backwards. Those of us that track and race care a great deal about unsprung weight, but, perhaps more importantly we care about wheel/tire options, lower CG with 18 inch wheels, etc. The bigger brakes are mostly for the bling factor....which has value to many. Many of us were hoping the M2C would move closer to the e46 rather than the M4. If BMW had really wanted a track focused car they could have improved/lightened the brakes, created a bespoke track seat that weighed less and could accommodate a harness. Even a carbon roof would be nice....and don't get me started on a usable oil/water temp gauge. In the end the M2C is a great car for the money , but missed the chance to evolve in the direction a lot of us wanted.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Twt

I am afraid you may have it backwards. Those of us that track and race care a great deal about unsprung weight, but, perhaps more importantly we care about wheel/tire options, lower CG with 18 inch wheels, etc. The bigger brakes are mostly for the bling factor....which has value to many. Many of us were hoping the M2C would move closer to the e46 rather than the M4. If BMW had really wanted a track focused car they could have improved/lightened the brakes, created a bespoke track seat that weighed less and could accommodate a harness. Even a carbon roof would be nice....and don't get me started on a usable oil/water temp gauge. In the end the M2C is a great car for the money , but missed the chance to evolve in the direction a lot of us wanted.

Never say never. It ain't end of 2020 yet and rumor has it that Sarah Connor is still alive.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by Egress

I own a 17 DCT M2 and I really want to buy the new bigger brakes when they release it as an MPerformance Upgrade!
Does anyone of you know when it will be available and what the estimated costs are?
How much could be asked for lightly used M2 brakes about 7000km old?

Should have more info in November.

[CSBM5]

No matter how much it might be marketed, discretely, with pictures on a track etc, the M2C, like the M2 before it is simply....a competent street car which is where 99+% of them will spend essentially near 100% of their time. It is what it is -- a nice combination of essentially bin available parts that will allow BMW to make a profit selling into a niche in the marketplace.

We'll know BMW is barely becoming serious when they allow front camber adjustment so these M-cars don't lean on the outer 2" of the front outside tire and rapidly overheat and chunk/cord the tires at the track. They've gone the other direction after the E9x generation and have taken away what little extra negative camber adjustment there was back then. In SCCA street class autox competition, where no modifications beyond one sway bar are allowed, competitor American iron have adjustable front camber that puts BMW to shame.

Just like all prior BMWs, if one seriously wants to track this car, you need: decent coilovers with adjustable camber plates, adj sway bars, etc; however, you can probably get away with using these new brakes, even with R-comps and limits of the car driving, if you use a good fluid, Ti shims between piston and backing plate, and a good race pad. Ditch the front pads when they are 2/3 worn to keep heat transfer to caliper down. It'll work fine.

However, that takes away the point of an M2C -- which is that it is a street car. Serious track driving should be done in a serious track car -- full cage, fire system, seat, harness, HANS, window net, etc, in my opinion (and fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your view, the growing opinion of insurance industry underwriters -- just look what they did here in NC to the liability policy language (all companies required to use same policy - regulated) for people who use their car on track!)

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

I would trust the lap times...but certainly driver comfort is a concern. If you have a chance to check out the PFC a second time.. I would do so... if you still dislike them then rip them off and go back to Hawk. As stated previously., the Hawk initial bite is very addictive.. and many people once they have that sensation... cant get away from it as it becomes a bit of a security blanket.

I appreciate your input. Maybe I forgot to mention, but I have had the PFC's on my car for 3 or 4 events now. I did notice right away that they weren't as aggressive, but my first day with them was on a track I wasn't familiar with, so I could not judge it completely. Then the second time (at Laguna Seca) I thought the braking zones had no grip, and attributed the sensation to that, but now that I have had a few days, and on 2 tracks that I am familiar with, I think the material has transferred on to the rotors and that should not be an excuse any longer.

You raise a good point/concern, maybe it would not be ideal to swap pads back and forth. Although I think a day of street driving usually removes the impeded material on the rotor and I drive a couple hundred miles to get to Laguna Seca, so I would think the rotors would be preped by the time I get there. Just swapping back mid day would not be a good strategy.

Originally Posted by Twt

I am afraid you may have it backwards. Those of us that track and race care a great deal about unsprung weight, but, perhaps more importantly we care about wheel/tire options, lower CG with 18 inch wheels, etc. The bigger brakes are mostly for the bling factor....which has value to many. Many of us were hoping the M2C would move closer to the e46 rather than the M4. If BMW had really wanted a track focused car they could have improved/lightened the brakes, created a bespoke track seat that weighed less and could accommodate a harness. Even a carbon roof would be nice....and don't get me started on a usable oil/water temp gauge. In the end the M2C is a great car for the money , but missed the chance to evolve in the direction a lot of us wanted.

Well said, and pretty much how I feel.

I don't want to sound like a broken record and keep bringing up my e46 M3, but since this M2 was supposes to be the replacement for it, I tend to compare all aspects against it. If i was in the market for a new street car that I would occasionally take to a HPDE, then the M2 is a fabulous car, I'm sure.
But for guys like me, that want it as a second car, and want it to be a track toy, it does appear like it missed the mark a bit. Getting heavier than the regular M2 was definitely not what I was looking for, and I do care a lot about un-sprung weight. However, I also know from a guy that tracks his M2 a lot, that the stock brakes are at best, at the very limit of being able to take the abuse.
I am all for going with the smallest/lightest brakes one can get away with. And I have never been someone who is aggressive on brakes. I am more of a momentum driver. But, with the added pork and power of this car, I have a feeling the bigger brakes are necessary.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by norMcal

I appreciate your input. Maybe I forgot to mention, but I have had the PFC's on my car for 3 or 4 events now. I did notice right away that they weren't as aggressive, but my first day with them was on a track I wasn't familiar with, so I could not judge it completely. Then the second time (at Laguna Seca) I thought the braking zones had no grip, and attributed the sensation to that, but now that I have had a few days, and on 2 tracks that I am familiar with, I think the material has transferred on to the rotors and that should not be an excuse any longer.

You raise a good point/concern, maybe it would not be ideal to swap pads back and forth. Although I think a day of street driving usually removes the impeded material on the rotor and I drive a couple hundred miles to get to Laguna Seca, so I would think the rotors would be preped by the time I get there. Just swapping back mid day would not be a good strategy.

Well said, and pretty much how I feel.

I don't want to sound like a broken record and keep bringing up my e46 M3, but since this M2 was supposes to be the replacement for it, I tend to compare all aspects against it. If i was in the market for a new street car that I would occasionally take to a HPDE, then the M2 is a fabulous car, I'm sure.
But for guys like me, that want it as a second car, and want it to be a track toy, it does appear like it missed the mark a bit. Getting heavier than the regular M2 was definitely not what I was looking for, and I do care a lot about un-sprung weight. However, I also know from a guy that tracks his M2 a lot, that the stock brakes are at best, at the very limit of being able to take the abuse.
I am all for going with the smallest/lightest brakes one can get away with. And I have never been someone who is aggressive on brakes. I am more of a momentum driver. But, with the added pork and power of this car, I have a feeling the bigger brakes are necessary.

Awesome post, thanks for the reply on the pads - definitely keep up with the hawks- and I wholeheartedly agree on the M2.

The M2 Competition has bigger brakes because Big Bertha has added on more weight in the M2 Competition years.

[Franzino]

When you read this M performance list: http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1503472

According to this list; the Retrofit Kit 19-inch compound Brake system are not available for the normal M2... Strange?

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by Franzino

When you read this M performance list: http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1503472

According to this list; the Retrofit Kit 19-inch compound Brake system are not available for the normal M2... Strange?

BMW doesn't have a good track record publishing 100% accurate press releases or documentation so I wouldn't solely rely on that PDF. It's quite possible that they missed it.

[Franzino]

Originally Posted by cntzl

BMW doesn't have a good track record publishing 100% accurate press releases or documentation so I wouldn't solely rely on that PDF. It's quite possible that they missed it.

The standard M2 comp brakes are the same as the M2...so I would presume the bigger brakes would fit on both...Maybe BMW don't want owners of the M2 to fit them, but that is another matter.

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by Franzino

The standard M2 comp brakes are the same as the M2...so I would presume the bigger brakes would fit on both...Maybe BMW don't want owners of the M2 to fit them, but that is another matter.

I think the whole point behind the red M performance BBK is to make more money by selling it to M2C owners who went with the smaller blue brakes as well as the original M2 owners. So I'm pretty sure you can retrofit them on your M2.

[Franzino]

Originally Posted by cntzl

I think the whole point behind the red M performance BBK is to make more money by selling it to M2C owners who went with the smaller blue brakes as well as the original M2 owners. So I'm pretty sure you can retrofit them on your M2.

I would still rather have the silver 2NH calipers...but ordering those in parts will indeed be more expensive then the red kit.

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by Franzino

I would still rather have the silver 2NH calipers...but ordering those in parts will indeed be more expensive then the red kit.

If you were in the US, I would sell you the ones that are gonna come out of my car for a reasonable price

[Franzino]

Originally Posted by cntzl

If you were in the US, I would sell you the ones that are gonna come out of my car for a reasonable price

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by cntzl

If you were in the US, I would sell you the ones that are gonna come out of my car for a reasonable price

You won’t have any problem selling them. I know some M4 owners interested. Many M4 CCB owners have switched to iron rotors, essentially creating a 2NH. RB has a two piece iron rotor set for CCB. They should theoretically work on 2NH, they will save about 12lbs over 2NH oem rotors. Definitely an option when rotor replacement is needed.

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

You won’t have any problem selling them. I know some M4 owners interested. Many M4 CCB owners have switched to iron rotors, essentially creating a 2NH. RB has a two piece iron rotor set for CCB. They should theoretically work on 2NH, they will save about 12lbs over 2NH oem rotors. Definitely an option when rotor replacement is needed.

Yea, that's what I'm thinking too. They should sell pretty easily. I will upgrade to Essex AP Racing BBK which is already 20lbs lighter than smaller blue brakes (total weight savings both front and rear) and fit 18" wheels.