[omasou]

Originally Posted by champignon

I find it more useful for rejecting a car purchase than for encouragement to buy one. You can find out where the car was owned, which might make you wary of road salt corrosion, for example. If accident(s) have been reported, that is good information to have. If the vehicle has titling issues, that's also good to know.

With any used car, I always buy the seller first, and the car, second.

Do not disagree and perhaps I should clarify.

Carfax does not report all problems with a car, especially damage. Not all body shop repairs are on a Carfax.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by champignon

I find it more useful for rejecting a car purchase than for encouragement to buy one. You can find out where the car was owned, which might make you wary of road salt corrosion, for example. If accident(s) have been reported, that is good information to have. If the vehicle has titling issues, that's also good to know.

With any used car, I always buy the seller first, and the car, second.

I would say the only good thing about Carfax is the fact that they record all the maintenance and service visits.. Free if you're a Geico customer btw.. I wouldn't count on them for a accurate accident history, based on my experience..

[BEM-S4]

I didn't read through the whole thread but for others perhaps getting into a similar situation, always have your bmw Dealer - not whoever is selling the car - run the VIN for you. BMW maintains a carfax on crack super detailed file on every car.

[ShelJW]

I don't want to pour salt on the wound of the OP, but I would recommend anyone purchasing a used car take it to an authorized dealer for the manufacturer, and do a PPI.

It'll cost you a small amount relative to what it can save you. If the OP had done this, I would imagine the BMW dealership would have caught the flag and notified him about it.

My 2 cents...

I do feel for the OP...hopefully, it'll all get worked out.

[McGary911]

Good luck with this, OP.

Another way dealers can get around the MMA is charging you for labor on the time the spend proving your part caused the failure, even though that burden is on them. I’m sure they take their time.

[Poochie]

Not guaranteed an official BMW dealer would of caught it but they would of been more than likely to help resolve the issue, if discovered post-sale..

Bought a certified M4 and just found out it has a Dinan tune - how? https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1480362

[DETRoadster]

OP, when you bought the car there should have been a window sticker or some paperwork with a check box that indicates "warranty" or "As is". Looks like this:



Do you have this and what does it show? If it shows "Warranty" marked and the car lot sold you the car under the premise that it had the balance of the factory warranty, case closed. They either honor the factory warranty or admit to making false claims in order to sell you the car. Any lawyer could draft up a letter for you to give to the car lot for a couple hundred well spent dollars.

[stefan]

This is fascinating and the first time I have heard of BMW "flagging" a car. What does this even look like? How can it be that nobody has seen this in person? Is it a code in the ECU? Is it the judgement of a SA and put on the VIN? How on earth does it void the whole car's warranty?! WTF?

[pz619]

Originally Posted by stefan

This is fascinating and the first time I have heard of BMW "flagging" a car. What does this even look like? How can it be that nobody has seen this in person? Is it a code in the ECU? Is it the judgement of a SA and put on the VIN? How on earth does it void the whole car's warranty?! WTF?

To my knowledge cars are flagged when they hook it up for diagnostics. If they noticed codes/parameters have been changed from factory setting, then the VIN gets flagged. From what I understand it's not up to the SA, but it's done automatically. The whole warranty isn't voided but the powertrain is. If you have a piggyback, you'll probably want that removed before giving it to BMW for service.

OP - let us know how it goes. Hopefully they arrive at an agreeable solution for you.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by pz619

To my knowledge cars are flagged when they hook it up for diagnostics. If they noticed codes/parameters have been changed from factory setting, then the VIN gets flagged. From what I understand it's not up to the SA, but it's done automatically. The whole warranty isn't voided but the powertrain is. If you have a piggyback, you'll probably want that removed before giving it to BMW for service.

OP - let us know how it goes. Hopefully they arrive at an agreeable solution for you.

Well hang on though.. how does that work exactly? Are those parameters really that tightly controlled? I doubt it. So if I take my M2 up Highwood pass in AB and the damn turbo is working overtime, is the dealer going to assume there's a tune on the car? Seems a little dubious. I mean I totally agree if you're running a piggyback but I just doubt the process.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by stefan

This is fascinating and the first time I have heard of BMW "flagging" a car. What does this even look like? How can it be that nobody has seen this in person? Is it a code in the ECU? Is it the judgement of a SA and put on the VIN? How on earth does it void the whole car's warranty?! WTF?

This is nothing new, I've been hearing about this since the E82/92 first came out, when COBB and Vishnu tuning was big at the time.

BMW flagging the VIN, basically voids the warranty. It is usually a subjective decision. I am not sure how they read the ECU data but apparently it is possible, to a degree.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by champignon

I find it more useful for rejecting a car purchase than for encouragement to buy one. You can find out where the car was owned, which might make you wary of road salt corrosion, for example. If accident(s) have been reported, that is good information to have. If the vehicle has titling issues, that's also good to know.

With any used car, I always buy the seller first, and the car, second.

How does buying the seller come in to play when buying used from a dealer? Seems like it's harder to get a feel for anything from a salesman.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by Poochie

This is nothing new, I've been hearing about this since the E82/92 first came out, when COBB and Vishnu tuning was big at the time.

BMW flagging the VIN, basically voids the warranty. It is usually a subjective decision. I am not sure how they read the ECU data but apparently it is possible, to a degree.

So yeah if you told me an SA was diagnosing something and looked into ECU values, I'd buy that. Makes me think a lot of this stuff happens when people buy cheap mods or rag the car causing some other abuse related issue prompting the dealer visit.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by stefan

So yeah if you told me an SA was diagnosing something and looked into ECU values, I'd buy that. Makes me think a lot of this stuff happens when people buy cheap mods or rag the car causing some other abuse related issue prompting the dealer visit.

They can't read a piggyback if you remove it but trust me, if your vehicle appears as though it has/had been modified or stressed, they're going make up some BS to deny the claim or warranty (Tire tread wear, stickers, even a lot of MP parts, ect...)

I know people here are going to doubt me and say something like "No they can't; Magnuson Moss blah blah" that's cute but I live in the real world and if a dealer wants to be a dick and deny a claim for any arbitrary reason, they can, will and HAVE. Not much you can do but bitch and moan.. Think about it..

I am speaking off a lot experience and perception, not conjecture.. Too many examples to type but trust me on this; you won't know until you're in that position.

[boostm3]

Originally Posted by stefan

Well hang on though.. how does that work exactly? Are those parameters really that tightly controlled? I doubt it. So if I take my M2 up Highwood pass in AB and the damn turbo is working overtime, is the dealer going to assume there's a tune on the car? Seems a little dubious. I mean I totally agree if you're running a piggyback but I just doubt the process.

First, there are shadow codes, telltale footprints left behind that can be seen.. Second, any of the stock parameters that have been surpassed, eg, boost for example will be detected and is prima facia evidence of tune. Then you have timing, map values, and a slew of other sensor readings that will have deviated from what the stock tune will produce and will be seen. Believe me, its not hard to spot a car that has been tuned by the diagnostics BMW uses. And once spotted, the VIN gets flagged and will be entered into BMW computers forever more. You pay your fare; you take your chances.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by boostm3

You pay your fare; you take your chances.

Words to live by..

[arwin]

Originally Posted by boostm3

First, there are shadow codes, telltale footprints left behind that can be seen.. Second, any of the stock parameters that have been surpassed, eg, boost for example will be detected and is prima facia evidence of tune. Then you have timing, map values, and a slew of other sensor readings that will have deviated from what the stock tune will produce and will be seen. Believe me, its not hard to spot a car that has been tuned by the diagnostics BMW uses. And once spotted, the VIN gets flagged and will be entered into BMW computers forever more. You pay your fare; you take your chances.

If you run bm3 or a vf tune and go back to the stock tune before bringing it to the dealer, can they see that?

[boostm3]

Originally Posted by arwin

If you run bm3 or a vf tune and go back to the stock tune before bringing it to the dealer, can they see that?

I could be wrong and this would better be answered by the vendor, but logic tells me that while running any tunes, stock parameters will be exceeded and stored. Also shadow codes. Im not saying theyll see these automatically, but if they have reason to search, like if the dealer faces a large warranty job, I believe these stored values can be discovered.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by Poochie

They can't read a piggyback if you remove it but trust me, if your vehicle appears as though it has/had been modified or stressed, they're going make up some BS to deny the claim or warranty (Tire tread wear, stickers, even a lot of MP parts, ect...)

I know people here are going to doubt me and say something like "No they can't; Magnuson Moss blah blah" that's cute but I live in the real world and if a dealer wants to be a dick and deny a claim for any arbitrary reason, they can, will and HAVE. Not much you can do but bitch and moan.. Think about it..

I am speaking off a lot experience and perception, not conjecture.. Too many examples to type but trust me on this; you won't know until you're in that position.

The dealer will deny warranty because you have stickers and M Performance parts?

[nomade30]

Originally Posted by arwin

If you run bm3 or a vf tune and go back to the stock tune before bringing it to the dealer, can they see that?

You'd have a better life if you assumed they can.

At the end of the day, every OBD flash leaves a marker whether it be a flash counter or marker in the EEPROM of the module. The only way to truly avoid it would be a boot backup of your stock ECU. There can be solutions made, but by the time a tuner develops that BMW might start pulling the tricks that VAG is pulling (storing fastest acceleration rate in many modules).

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by akkando

The dealer will deny warranty because you have stickers and M Performance parts?

Obviously, no.. What I was trying to convey is that a collective amount of subjective evidence of "performance" driving might make them form a profile of the vehicle's usage, which works against you.

When it comes to larger claims (eg. defective diff), they WILL profile the vehicle before it is approved.

Perfect Example:

Another Warranty Denial https://www.6post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1174774

[stefan]

Originally Posted by boostm3

First, there are shadow codes, telltale footprints left behind that can be seen.. Second, any of the stock parameters that have been surpassed, eg, boost for example will be detected and is prima facia evidence of tune. Then you have timing, map values, and a slew of other sensor readings that will have deviated from what the stock tune will produce and will be seen. Believe me, its not hard to spot a car that has been tuned by the diagnostics BMW uses. And once spotted, the VIN gets flagged and will be entered into BMW computers forever more. You pay your fare; you take your chances.

If it's anything like the ecu shadow codes from the e46/e39 days then they can be seen and cleared with diag tools. Just saying like I don't see how any of that is a smoking gun for warranty denial. Like what would you be logging? In everyday conditions boost isn't perfectly controlled. So there would need to be some crazy realtime modeling of each parameters statistical distribution to auto log outliers. I don't buy it, but who knows eh. I could be wrong.

fascinating about VW though.. pretty damn aggressive. Suppose BMW could be the same.