[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

What misinformation are you talking about? No one even remotely implied that BMW does, or should be, building a motor with aftermarket potential in mind.

That doesn't mean that as a buyer/enthusiast, we don't want that potential.

Speaking of misinformation...

For the 5th time now, the N54 continued to be used in the 335is and the Z4 for years beyond 2011. If BMW wanted to build the 1M longer, the N54 would not have prevented them from doing so.

Yes. We agree on the n54 production. Please research 2012 and 2016 cafe standards. As a start, see this article from 2010 which details some of the specifics and explains the steps in cafe figures for 2012 and 2016.


http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...afe-standards/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://www.popularme...standards/</a>" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://<a href="http...dards/</a></a>


The 1m made it just under the bar and BMW purposely made it a 2011 rather than 2012 so it wouldn't be subject to the 2012 standards.

We are 4 years down the road. The m2 will come out next year as a 2016 or 2017 model and all models will be Subject to tougher standards. Bread and butter models like the 335 (340) , 435(440), 535 (540) 235(240) etc will need a more fuel efficient motor. Back in 2012 they got the n55. Now they get the b58.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Where are you hearing that tuned N55 cars have turbo reliability issues in the long term?

That's news to us I think...

It's been a little while now, but I believe that Dackel had convos with some guys that were doing serious modifications to one of the early 235s, and that after the N55 was torn down, the general consensus was that 365-ish BHP was the most horsepower the N55 could reaosnably handle with the stock internals.

Now that doesn't translate into reliability issues directly, but perhaps an argument could be made that the horsepower number (365) was arrived at for that exact reason. It's the most power this engine can make without significant (aka expensive) upgrades.

It will be interesting to see how the engine is dialed up for sure.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

The 1m made it just under the bar and BMW purposely made it a 2011 rather than 2012 so it wouldn't be subject to the 2012 standards.

It makes sense to me that BMW could have made the decision for the CAFE standard changes that were coming in 2012 - but how does the N54 end up in any car afterwards if those same standards were the reason behind the 1M's shortened production run ?

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

It's been a little while now, but I believe that Dackel had convos with some guys that were doing serious modifications to one of the early 235s, and that after the N55 was torn down, the general consensus was that 365-ish BHP was the most horsepower the N55 could reaosnably handle with the stock internals.

Now that doesn't translate into reliability issues directly, but perhaps an argument could be made that the horsepower number (365) was arrived at for that exact reason. It's the most power this engine can make without significant (aka expensive) upgrades.

It will be interesting to see how the engine is dialed up for sure.

Or that they'll tweak stock internals..

[SeanHay]

Anyone think we'll get further interior options later?

[sth519]

In case the M2 is a regular production model (as opposed to the 1M) with a multi-year production run, I wouldn't rule out additional color options (both interior and exterior) in later model years. Maybe with the 2-series LCI.

[W///]

Originally Posted by cSurf

Or that they'll tweak stock internals..

Exactly. We have absolutely no idea what changes will be made to the engine. Some of you guys assume that they'll just crank up the boost and call it a day

[SeanHay]

Originally Posted by sth519

In case the M2 is a regular production model (as opposed to the 1M) with a multi-year production run, I wouldn't rule out additional color options (both interior and exterior) in later model years. Maybe with the 2-series LCI.

That would be my preference! Black interiors are boring. lol

I'm praying for the day that BMW will finally do individual on the 2-series... sigh wonder if that will ever happen.

[bim2er]

Originally Posted by B-1Pilot

The color choices should have been:

Alpine White
Imola Red
Lemans Blue
Jet Black
Silverstone, for those who want a metallic.

I see a lot of wraps in the future.

+1

[bim2er]

Originally Posted by imported_TheStig

Other = Donington Gray

Another Other = Donington Grey

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

It makes sense to me that BMW could have made the decision for the CAFE standard changes that were coming in 2012 - but how does the N54 end up in any car afterwards if those same standards were the reason behind the 1M's shortened production run ?

Because you have to look at more than the one big figure of corporate average for the fleet and see how penalties work based on model and production figures. Sprinkle some n54t motors among a lot of n55s and it's no big deal to do that on a 135 or z4. Make a ton of cars all with the same motor (ie an S motor or n5xT) and it changes how the penalties for the mpg for that vehicle is calculated. Have too many vehicles that boost your figures and if affects the fleet average.

There is some science to this and a balancing act that most people don't look into the details to understand.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

It's been a little while now, but I believe that Dackel had convos with some guys that were doing serious modifications to one of the early 235s, and that after the N55 was torn down, the general consensus was that 365-ish BHP was the most horsepower the N55 could reaosnably handle with the stock internals.

Now that doesn't translate into reliability issues directly, but perhaps an argument could be made that the horsepower number (365) was arrived at for that exact reason. It's the most power this engine can make without significant (aka expensive) upgrades.

It will be interesting to see how the engine is dialed up for sure.

Link to that? There are literally thousands of N55 cars running around with much more power than that, with no reliability issues.

The 365ish number has much more to do with the turbo, as that's approaching its limits when used with factory cats and a factory-suitable tune.

The rotating assembly is good for much, much more than that. Maybe not quite N54 strong, but very, very strong none-the-less.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Because you have to look at more than the one big figure of corporate average for the fleet and see how penalties work based on model and production figures. Sprinkle some n54t motors among a lot of n55s and it's no big deal to do that on a 135 or z4. Make a ton of cars all with the same motor (ie an S motor or n5xT) and it changes how the penalties for the mpg for that vehicle is calculated. Have too many vehicles that boost your figures and if affects the fleet average.

There is some science to this and a balancing act that most people don't look into the details to understand.

Right - my point is that the limit of the 1M to a 2011 model doesn't make sense on the CAFE standards argument alone - they sold what, 2,000-ish 1Ms worldwide? They could have made it for more than one year without adversely affecting the overall numbers of the BMW fleet.

[antzcrashing]

Im surprised so many people are picking the blue, to me its not a good blue. Maybe its bc the 1M lacked a blue people are jumping on this one. I would go for the gray or black i think

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Link to that? There are literally thousands of N55 cars running around with much more power than that, with no reliability issues.

The 365ish number has much more to do with the turbo, as that's approaching its limits when used with factory cats and a factory-suitable tune.

The rotating assembly is good for much, much more than that. Maybe not quite N54 strong, but very, very strong none-the-less.

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showt...=978175&page=6

I wasn't claiming that the N55 is unreliable - just relaying what had been said earlier. I am not a fan of the N55, but I am not making shit up either.

Obviously, if the M guys start fiddling with stuff, the motor is capable of much more - look at the S55. But the S55 shares <15% or whatever with the original N55 (two turbos instead of one being the most obvious difference).

Because the N54 was a better place from which to start, it's not surprising that the lightly massaged one in the 1M was so good. They're going to have to do better massaging for the version of the N55 that ends up in the M2 to create the same overall effect IMO.

[Diver]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

It's been a little while now, but I believe that Dackel had convos with some guys that were doing serious modifications to one of the early 235s, and that after the N55 was torn down, the general consensus was that 365-ish BHP was the most horsepower the N55 could reaosnably handle with the stock internals.

Now that doesn't translate into reliability issues directly, but perhaps an argument could be made that the horsepower number (365) was arrived at for that exact reason. It's the most power this engine can make without significant (aka expensive) upgrades.

It will be interesting to see how the engine is dialed up for sure.

I wonder... The key word is "reasonably". It means one thing for a single owner who is modding his car and is willing to take a "reasonable" risk it will fail. The standards are higher for a manufacturer who will build thousands of cars knowing some will be owned by complete nut cases and that manufacturer has to pick up the bill for warranty repairs.

Well, that doesn't prove anything and it will be interesting, as you say. If the M2 drives right nobody will care if it has "only" 365 hp, what kind of internals the motor has or if it is only available in 4 colors and none of them is orange. All it has to be is a reincarnated 1M kicked up a notch with enough of a price gap with the M3/M4.

[sth519]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showt...=978175&page=6

Thanks for the link!

So even tuners don't go above 360PS with the N55 for reliability reasons, yet for some reason, everyone assumes the rumored 365HP/370PS version for the M2 will basically be nothing more than an ECU reflash. That just doesn't make sense to me.

We "know" that several engines were in discussion for the M2 and that the decision for the N55B30T0 was made when development was already well underway (early 2014). I don't think that they'd made that decision if it would "ruin" the car, as some here suggest.

Originally Posted by Diver

I wonder... The key word is "reasonably". It means one thing for a single owner who is modding his car and is willing to take a "reasonable" risk it will fail. The standards are higher for a manufacturer who will build thousands of cars knowing some will be owned by complete nut cases and that manufacturer has to pick up the bill for warranty repairs.

Well, that doesn't prove anything and it will be interesting, as you say. If the M2 drives right nobody will care if it has "only" 365 hp, what kind of internals the motor has or if it is only available in 4 colors and none of them is orange. All it has to be is a reincarnated 1M kicked up a notch with enough of a price gap with the M3/M4.

+1

[Diver]

From Autospies:

"As of now it seems that the BMW forum members are split on whether the M2 is going to be a STUD or DUD."

Fair enough, but kind of funny.

[mxa121]

Any ideas if an S65 will fit in this?

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Diver

I wonder... The key word is "reasonably". It means one thing for a single owner who is modding his car and is willing to take a "reasonable" risk it will fail. The standards are higher for a manufacturer who will build thousands of cars knowing some will be owned by complete nut cases and that manufacturer has to pick up the bill for warranty repairs.

Well, that doesn't prove anything and it will be interesting, as you say. If the M2 drives right nobody will care if it has "only" 365 hp, what kind of internals the motor has or if it is only available in 4 colors and none of them is orange. All it has to be is a reincarnated 1M kicked up a notch with enough of a price gap with the M3/M4.

Agreed - my guess is that BMW will need to fiddle with the internals of the N55 to get to the 360 BHP AND keep the engine reliable for the typical range of an ///M motor. They just didn't need as much of that with the 1M because the N54 was a little better equipped to handle the higher power loads.

Originally Posted by sth519

Thanks for the link!

So even tuners don't go above 360PS with the N55 for reliability reasons, yet for some reason, everyone assumes the rumored 365HP/370PS version for the M2 will basically be nothing more than an ECU reflash. That just doesn't make sense to me.

We "know" that several engines were in discussion for the M2 and that the decision for the N55B30T0 was made when development was already well underway (early 2014). I don't think that they'd made that decision if it would "ruin" the car, as some here suggest.

Oh, I am sure the car will be good - it is just fun to toss around the possibilities at this point. Once we know more, all of this will be moot, and we will be able to have fun in terms of who was right or closest to being right about the final product.

You gotta remember, the 1M started off with some pretty bootleg looking prototypes - where they didn't even bother with camo and shit was all bolted on in a Frankenstein manner. and it turned out pretty damn well - I am sure the M2 will as well, because it was gotten "more" of the traditional ///M treatment from the beginning.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by mxa121

Any ideas if an S65 will fit in this?

If people can squeeze the V10 into the E46 M3, then I would think yes.

[verbs]

If there's one thing everyone here should know by now is that rated hp #s from BMW on turbo motors mean jack squat. I think it's fair to see how it performs on the dyno first before annointing this car an underpowered failure.

No way they're going to rate this car's hp anywhere near the M3's 425hp......which isn't exactly making 425hp either.