[ghost_m2c]

I was thinking about putting on a JB4 Tuner but I have a warranty. Will this void the warranty and if so, is there any way to take it out and/or make it undetectable?

[Bumpinjeep]

1. Yes this will void your warranty
2. No. If something goes wrong with the car and you take it in for warranty related work, it will be void.

[ghost_m2c]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

1. Yes this will void your warranty
2. No. If something goes wrong with the car and you take it in for warranty related work, it will be void.

Is there any way to detach without having anything logged on the ecm?

[MadM2C]

Originally Posted by ghost_m2c

Is there any way to detach without having anything logged on the ecm?

Actually according to jb4, if it’s installed and uninstalled correctly each time. The dealership would have no way of seeing any tampering.

[hlm2c]

Bmw will detect your JB4 if they dig deep enough. Read the new ISTA thread and how easy it is to flag your car now.

[nioh_lbbm2]

Originally Posted by MadM2C

Actually according to jb4, if it’s installed and uninstalled correctly each time. The dealership would have no way of seeing any tampering.

They're wrong or lying for sales. BMW will know if you try to make a power train related warranty claim.

Whether or not one's local dealership will turn a blind eye varies but don't go in assuming they will.

[Poochie]

If you remove a hypothetical piggyback tune (i.e any
external device that does not flash and overwrite the original programming), even if a dealer gives your vehicle a thorough colonoscopy, they will factually not be able to detect it was ever there.

I'm a 100,000,000% positive about this and I'm speaking off personal experience, as someone who knows how to the play the game..

Now, before any of you fear-mongers believe I'm wrong and feel the need to jump at my throat, please first provide actual bonafide proof that BMW can detect a previously installed piggyback device, such as a JB4, merely from a ECU data dump and PayPal you a $100, no BS..

I'll just patiently wait here with my good old friend Benjamin Franklin, to be proven wrong.

[MadM2C]

Originally Posted by Poochie

If you remove a hypothetical piggyback tune (i.e any
external device that does not flash and overwrite the original programming), even if a dealer gives your vehicle a thorough colonoscopy, they will factually not be able to detect it was ever there.

I'm a 100,000,000% positive about this and I'm speaking off personal experience, as someone who knows how to the play the game..

Now, before any of you fear-mongers believe I'm wrong and feel the need to jump at my throat, please first provide actual bonafide proof that BMW can detect a previously installed piggyback device, such as a JB4, merely from a ECU data dump and PayPal you a $100, no BS..

I'll just patiently wait here with my good old friend Benjamin Franklin, to be proven wrong.

Yep I agree, There won’t be a way for BMW to discover this if properly used. The Ecu/DME doesn’t realize its running more power. Perhaps the ONLY way they can maybe make the assumption of more power, is if they can maybe see there is more load than normal. But that can be due to very many variables and would not trigger any flags.

[beanfritter]

Originally Posted by MadM2C

There won’t be a way for BMW to discover this if properly used.

Originally Posted by Poochie

they will factually not be able to detect it was ever there.

Source: dude, trust me.

The statements you've made here require knowledge of the innards of the ECU that you almost certainly do not have.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by beanfritter

Source: dude, trust me.

The statements you've made here require knowledge of the innards of the ECU that you almost certainly do not have.

Source? Of what exactly? My engine that did not fail?

I understand how a piggyback and vehicle's ECU works but I don't need to break it down to folks that don't care to accept it, I already have common sense and a Google, as a backstop.

At this juncture, if a piggyback tune was the result numerous engine failure and later detection, the internet would exploded with bitching and conspiracy theories; folks just love to hearing their own voice but yet, not even one single case. Weird right 🤷🏻

I get that would never convince some of you guys that there are no monsters in the closet, so believe whatever makes you sleep better at night but factually, a simple piggyback tune, once removed and the vehicle adaptions are resettled, [COLOR="DarkRed"]cannon[/COLOR] be detected.

https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=21988588

https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=19459154

.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by MadM2C

Yep I agree, There won't be a way for BMW to discover this if properly used. The Ecu/DME doesn't realize its running more power. Perhaps the ONLY way they can maybe make the assumption of more power, is if they can maybe see there is more load than normal. But that can be due to very many variables and would not trigger any flags.

The ECU doesn't log high-boost, it doesn't even see the increase boost pressure and AFR from a piggyback, that's the beauty.

The only time you have to worry about detection is if the vehicle throws a [COLOR="DarkRed"]201101 DME: Protection against tampering: Program or data manipulation detected[/COLOR]
error code.

Then you're certainly fvcked, as that's permanently recorded to the ECU's EPROM but is only known to happen with flash tunes.

The vehicle does what's called a checksum against the data currently running and what's originally programmed at the factory, when there is a mismatch (possible tune), it triggers a tamper code, which is how a field engineer detects an aftermarket tune.


https://www.tech-faq.com/checksum-error.html

Other than that, you're fine with a piggyback.

.

[GregInNewMexico]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Source? Of what exactly? My engine that did not fail?

I understand how a piggyback and vehicle's ECU works but I don't need to break it down to folks that don't care to accept it, I already have common sense and a Google, as a backstop.

At this juncture, if a piggyback tune was the result numerous engine failure and later detection, the internet would exploded with bitching and conspiracy theories; folks just love to hearing their own voice but yet, not even one single case. Weird right ����

I get that would never convince some of you guys that there are no monsters in the closet, so believe whatever makes you sleep better at night but factually, a simple piggyback tune, once removed and the vehicle adaptions are resettled, cannon be detected.

https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=21988588

https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=19459154

.

As a software developer and computer security expert, never make the assumption that you know an entire system and what it does:

Do these cars have computers? Yes
Do these cars have sensors everywhere? Yes
Do these sensors connect to the computer? Duh
Do these cars have logging? Yes

Here is where it gets fun:

Do these cars measure power output?

Yes, one location that you can confirm yourself is in the sport display. Not sure if that is very accurate however and I don't have a tuned car. So I don't know if it would show 450bhp or 500bhp etc.. We *don't know* if they are capturing something more accurate elsewhere. We don't have a very clear picture of what they are logging at all.

As a dev, I have certainly captured inputs and outputs that are unexpected in my programs to detect anomalies, bugs and bad user behavior. That is a universal development practice. Considering if BMW detects an engine tune, that they would put that into the bad user behavior bucket., and that would be a significant cost savings to the tune of 25k a pop if they were able to detect it.

Next:
Can an unexpected increase of output be logged?

Since we can see at least a psuedo power output in the sport display, if anywhere near accurate, it would be *trivial* to log. So I would say yes. I don't know that BMW designed the software to do that, or if the gauge is accurate. If I was a BMW programmer, and that gauge is anywhere near correct and I wanted to detect tampering, that would be one way to do so. Super easy. Not saying that is the only way however.

A psuedo code example of what BMW could log would sorta be like the following:
EnginePowerDisplay > 420 HP = add line caughtredhanded to variable LogOverPower
Write LogOverPower to voidwarranty.log


So the data side of my brain then asks...How would you explain an engine detuned to make 410hp, now making 500bhp? That would certainly peak the minds of those BMW folks who have never heard of JB4, Dinan, or aftermarket engine tuning.

Just food for thought. Some might say I am paranoid about computer security and subjects like data logging and analytics. If you aren't, you should be.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by GregInNewMexico

If I were to use anecdotal data that you are using as proof... Fine the JB4 grenaded his engine and he got it fixed. Wait it looks like the JB4 grenaded his engine! No thanks on that tune.

You don't know what blew his engine, it could of been anything. His car had full bolts on and much more. He probably dogged the shit out of that motor and killed it. Even stock motors can grenade.

The point was, he was running a JB4 and they still paid from his engine. No detection. The end.

[GregInNewMexico]

Originally Posted by Poochie

You don't know what blew his engine, it could of been anything. His car had full bolts on and much more. He probably dogged the shit out of that motor and killed it. Even stock motors can grenade.

The point was, he was running a JB4 and they still paid from his engine. No detection. The end.

*I never said I knew what blew his engine*. I was making a snarky comment. Reread my post Not the end.

[GregInNewMexico]

I don't think BMW can detect everything, but if there is a way, they will do it. We know some folks have had their cars flagged without an engine failure. Your one story is anecdotal, sort of like the handful of smokers who never die of cancer. I am glad the guy got his car fixed. You never know, perhaps it was a manufacturing issue. Assumptions go both ways brother.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by GregInNewMexico

I don't think BMW can detect everything, but if there is a way, they will do it. We know some folks have had their cars flagged without an engine failure. Your one story is anecdotal, sort of like the handful of smokers who never die of cancer. I am glad the guy got his car fixed. You never know, perhaps it was a manufacturing issue. Assumptions go both ways brother.

Ironic; all you have are unfounded fears but my actual, real-world testimonials are not enough to satify you. 🤷🏻

I ran out of reasonable ways of convincing some of you of this, so let's just agree to disagree.

Like I said, if you are buying into the belief that a mere piggyback tune will ruin your engine/warranty, then just keep your car stock and move on but factually, those that know what they are doing have very little to worry about - no guts, no glory

[GregInNewMexico]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Ironic; all you have are have is unfounded fears but my actual, real-world testimonials are not enough to satify you. ����

I ran out of reasonable ways of convincing some of you of this, so let's just agree to disagree.

Like I said, if you are buying into the unfouded fears that a mere piggyback tune will ruin your engine/warranty, then just keep your car stock and move on but factually, those that know what they are doing have very little to worry about - no guts, no glory

Definition of anecdotal evidence : evidence in the form of stories that people tell about what has happened to them or others. <This is what you are providing. Anecdotal evidence is not meaningful statistics.

There is no fear at all on my side. It is called decades of experience education in programming, computers, control systems, and information systems and a successful career keeping folks protected from their own ignorance.

You pretty much ignored my thread about how easy it would be to log extra power which would be indicative of a tune. Fine.

Considering you don't seem to have any worries about modern compute, I would get rid of your smart phones and computers for your own good. Hint: They ARE far more dangerous than you understand. Better yet, educate yourself by taking a computer security course as well as programming for control systems (another word for your cars computer) and get a healthy dose of reality You will be far less likely to make the claims you are, and will have the education to back it.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by GregInNewMexico

Not fear at all. It is called decades of experience education in programming, computers, and information systems and a successful career keeping folks protected from their own ignorance. You pretty much ignored my thread about how easy it would be to log extra power which would be indicative of a tune. Fine.

Considering you don't seem to have any worries about modern compute, I would get rid of your smart phones and computers for your own good, or take a computer security course and get a healthy dose of reality

You work in software and Jesus was a bricklayer, what's your point?

We are taking about a piggyback tune and it's ability to be detected, after removal.

If all that you're countering with is humble bragging and cheap shots, then we are just going around in circles on the subject.

Look, I'll let you have the last word and just leave this subject right here.

[GregInNewMexico]

Originally Posted by Poochie

You work in software and Jesus was a bricklayer, what's your point?

We are taking about a piggyback tune and it's ability to be detected, after removal.

If all that you're countering with is humble bragging and cheap shots, then we are just going around in circles on the subject.

Look, I'll let you have the last word and just leave this subject here..

Look: I disagree with your assertion that tuning these machines is safe for your *warranty*. I do so based on the fact that BMWs control systems in your car are incredibly complex and have lots of sensors at every stage of combustion and have a high degree of logging which is *retained* for an undetermined period. Probably years or forever.

Logging happens before, during, and after you have removed modifications from your car. That is the point you are missing.

BMW devs are world class and know that folks are tuning their cars, and have a financial interest in detecting modified firmware or boltons that might lose them money.

Pointing out my qualifications is completely relevant here. Not humble bragging. Most car guys I have known over my life are utterly clueless about the control systems in their cars. I have specialized knowledge that you do not, and have even shared an easy way to *potentially* detect a tune. Which you ignored. Sorry for pushing you deeper into your confirmation bias.

If you have tuned your car, I sincerely hope it lasts forever. I wouldn't want to be on the dole for 25k.

Peace.

[beanfritter]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Source? Of what exactly?

You backed your assertion (essentially that the ECU maintains no state that could indicate use of a piggypack tune) by saying that you're really sure about it. Not very convincing!

Originally Posted by Poochie

factually, a simple piggyback tune, once removed and the vehicle adaptions are resettled, cannon be detected.

Proof by repeated assertion. I like it. Is your basis for treating this as true that you've never seen evidence to the contrary? You know of no cases where BMW denied a warranty claim due to detected piggyback tune, therefore such detection is impossible?

There are threads like the following that claim the opposite.
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1746443


I ran a JB4 on a different platform (MK7 VW GTI) because I didn't want to void the warranty with a flash tune. I shouldn't have worried, and in retrospect I am trying to imagine the absurdity of blowing the turbo, pulling over, and crawling around under the car on the side of the interstate trying to get the JB4 disconnected from that damned plug D before the tow truck arrives to take it to the dealer, where I can pretend that I have no idea how such a thing could happen...

Later on I got a flash tune and it was much better. Since there are S55 flash tunes that come with a warranty, my suggestion to the OP is to get one of those instead. That being said, the JB4 was a lot of fun to play with and unless you are a complete idiot with it, it is unlikely that you are going to damage your motor adding a little more boost.

The debate about detection aside, know that BMW is well within their right to deny a drivetrain warranty claim if you've ever tuned your car.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by beanfritter

You backed your assertion (essentially that the ECU maintains no state that could indicate use of a piggypack tune) by saying that you're really sure about it. Not very convincing!

Proof by repeated assertion. I like it. Is your basis for treating this as true that you've never seen evidence to the contrary? You know of no cases where BMW denied a warranty claim due to detected piggyback tune, therefore such detection is impossible?

There are threads like the following that claim the opposite.
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1746443


I ran a JB4 on a different platform (MK7 VW GTI) because I didn't want to void the warranty with a flash tune. I shouldn't have worried, and in retrospect I am trying to imagine the absurdity of blowing the turbo, pulling over, and crawling around under the car on the side of the interstate trying to get the JB4 disconnected from that damned plug D before the tow truck arrives to take it to the dealer, where I can pretend that I have no idea how such a thing could happen...

Later on I got a flash tune and it was much better. Since there are S55 flash tunes that come with a warranty, my suggestion to the OP is to get one of those instead. That being said, the JB4 was a lot of fun to play with and unless you are a complete idiot with it, it is unlikely that you are going to damage your motor adding a little more boost.

The debate about detection aside, know that BMW is well within their right to deny a drivetrain warranty claim if you've ever tuned your car.

The thread you linked, I don't care what that OP said, that supposed 330i he referenced was previously benched flashed. A piggyback doesn't cause that.
You attempting to convince me of this is like I'm
looking at the sky and seeing it's clearly blue but you're claiming it's pink.

That member (see post below) has several detailed threads decided to the on flash tuning and staunchly supports that medium, hence, is well aware of the inherent risk but there, he was acting all ignorant and innocent, attempting to install fear about some phantom JB4 issue, we don't have first-hand details on.

I'm sure his "friend" at the dealer knew what time it was and just told him go kick rocks.

The DME's encryption has been bypassed through the bootloader, triggering a checksum mismatch, causing that specific error. I already referenced it about.

If anyone has actual proof and is not all talk, that a piggyback brings out the boogieman, then throw at the fridge, let's see if it's sticks. Until then, it's all hearsay

Like I said, if a mere piggyback makes you shake in your boot, then just don't use it. For the other tens of thousands that will and have successfully used them, I promise they won't lose any sleep over it.


.