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      02-20-2016, 11:21 AM   #1
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Lightbulb Let's discuss the BMW "M2 CS" rumor: will there be a hardcore M2 variant 2019/2020 ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cc3 View Post
Car magazine this month says a 400 bhp lighter weight M2 CS model is already under development. So will it get full CSL label or just CS for club sport ?


M2 CS ? Now that's interesting ! OK, catch my 'hit-or-miss' drift for a moment.

CS = Coupé Sport

CSL = Coupé Sport Leichtbau = Coupé Sport Lightweight construction.

It was already hinted in the past that BMW plans to reboo(s)t "CSL" as a brand through future BMW model variants, showcasing BMW's advanced technology (especially eDrive):
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
CSL will only be available for the Coupe models.
CSL Concept car will be shown in 2016.
CSL will use the ideas from the hommage [BMW 3.0 CSL Hommage] such as stuck on but blended in aerodynamics to bring a fresh visual perspective to these more extreme hardcore M cars over standard M cars.
CSL cars will not only be the most extreme variants but will also be used as the innovation test lab to test new and exciting innovation to enhance performance but meeting legislation. That includes variations of Power eDrive that have been developed to enhance and assist performance whilst delivering exceptional sustainability.
CSL cars will be innovative in using lightweight materials, the BMW M4 GTS has its upper body completely fabricated with CFRP. And BMW have done additional developments with parts of the M4 chassis also using CFRP in reference to Motorsport purpose, but it would not be unthinkable for application within a road car.
CSL continues the historic decision to use the then E9 and its Motorsport innovations within conventional road cars. But today the field is much further in terms of advanced innovation not only aimed at performance but also sustainability.
Updated 9/1/15:
The purpose and ability to bring something radical to the performance segment lies within the genes of the CSL Hommage [BMW 3.0 CSL Hommage]. BMW and BMW M through BMWi are now at an exciting stage even ahead of their competitors to introduce an exciting new linage of CSL remodels evoking the very same reasons they were introduced in the first place to develop Motorsport technology and innovation for the road.
If we look at the M4 GTS: it's lighter, faster and more precise than the standard car plus it uses very new exciting innovation with Water Injection Technology to distinguish it further from the standard M4 Coupe as does the increase in weight reduction innovation and the more direct response of the dynamics.
You might question what purpose for an M4 CSL?
It could use the same ideas but distinguish further by an increase in weight reduction innovation but incorporate some of BMWs latest thinking in getting the best of performance with an e-boost system demonstrated on the CSL Hommage [BMW 3.0 CSL Hommage]. And that innovation is being tested on M4s today.
As everything begins for Motorsport BMW M have fabricated chassis sections and components out of CFRP including actual wheels and steering wheels as well as areas in the suspension out of CFRP for Motorsport evaluation, it is not impossible to include in a special road car. There is a conceptual lab in Munich that [is] testing various CFRP applications in BMW, Rolls-Royce and even MINI's with some Cooper S models testing a CFRP hood.
The programme I have seen to reflect the creative conception of BMW Ms new strategy starts from Road Car - Road Car Special Packet (Competition) - GTS - CSL. Identity is important so that is why there is an evolution for each stage with the CSL using conceptual visual ideas from the CSL Hommage [BMW 3.0 CSL Hommage] but applying them realistically. It will be the first modern BMW Batmobile. And again its mission is to bring the competitive edge of Motorsport innovation to the road exactly like the E9 set out to do.
Of course this needs further funding to innovate and apply so there will be new but for the first time a BMW X3M and BMW X4M as well as M Performance versions of the BMW X1 and upcoming BMW X2. The forthcoming BMW Z sports car will be positioned like BMWi as a book between the BMWi and BMW M.
One or two CSL concept models are rumored for 2016. We still got to guess which coupé models those might be. Maybe we get to see one at the occasion of the 100 Year BMW festivities next September.

Now, if BMW wants to do justice to the letter "L" in "CSL", a 6-cyl might not be quite the preferred engine-layout choice. 3/4/5-cyl = less weight, improved fuel consumption figures, less CO2 emissions, etc.

As indicated in a previous comment (and see also here and here), some at 2erTalk claim that BMW has been testing an M2 featuring an S55 engine that turned out to be "over 8 seconds faster than an M4" on the Nürburgring Nordschleife (which should give an impressive 07:43 or 07:44 lap time | M4 GTS = 07:28 | Porsche Cayman GT4 = 07:40 (claimed without video) | M4 = 07:52 | base M2 = 07:58 | 1M = 08:15).

A BMW 6-cyl, compact sized Porsche Cayman GT4 fighter (price-tag may be accordingly) ? Now that's the kind of pocket rocket speak that sounds like cool music to many ears (except for those of the competition). If that interesting S55 rumor would be accurate (let's not take it for granted yet), then I doubt that BMW is testing this test mule without a bigger plan in mind. Maybe not for now or the near future, but for a more distant future. Especially when considering that the M2 base version is out on the streets from April 16 onwards and an M2 lifecycle impulse (LCI) is rumored for no earlier than MY 2018.

SCOTT26 may have hinted to that particular M2 variant - rather than to an M2 CSL - when he referred a couple of times in the past to a more aggressive, faster M2 'sibling' who's an even closer relative to the BMW Vision Concept GT6 than the base M2 is + features M235i Racing width (width without mirrors: BMW M235i Racing = 1862mm/73.3in | base M2 = 1854mm/73.0in):
"The standard M2 is a more realistic version of the Vision GT which when you bring it back into typical M proportions you still get a muscular body and uniquely honed aerodynamic packet. The "sibling" packs on more "visual" bulk so it looks like an M2 but with additional equipment it's slightly wider but this is helped by the add-on wheel arches at the same width of the M235i Race Car. Not too big and not too wide but the differences in width between standard [base M2] and "sibling" are apparent as is the aerodynamics aided with a more race-like splitter, diffuser and spoiler. It's the first BMW "Batmobile" since the E21.
The body is not the only difference between both cars. Crucial performance figures will differ as will weight with the sibling being tuned more for the track."

(source: comment by "Herr26" here - March 2015)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
It looks as if they are investigating a more hardcore M2 having seen one at a test track, mixing aerodynamics of the Vision GT and the [M235i] Racing but identifiable as the M2 but far more muscular and brutal than the standard M2. It could be for racing purpose showcase but I like to think of it as a potential rival to the Porsche Cayman GT4 and the first modern BMW "Batmobile" since the E9.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Just seen an interesting car. It's an M2 but has the widened aerodynamic kit of the Vision GT but in more production form in the same width as the M235i Racing. There was a Carbon Roof on this car.
It reminds me of the old 2002/E9/E21 racing cars. It does have a rear wing. This could be a proposal for "Further Progress" or Motorsport purpose but it was more "Street Orientated".
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
The M2 is standard M. Muscular front and rear with striking and unique aerodynamics.
The Secondary car [M2 variant] is a slimmer variant of the Vision GT car more in tune with the width of the M235i Racing Car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Interesting rumor about the "Sibling" but will need to follow through.
But it could feature a version albeit with less power of the M4 GTS innovative Water Injection Technology to make the more harder edged M cars stand out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
As I keep telling a small majority hear you are far too impatient and patience is what you must have because BMW M needs the time and patience to create this car [base M2] and its sibling [M2 variant].
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
IF we do a lightweight M2 (emphasis on IF). Then I do not see it being offered in the USA because of the cost to get some items from the above past legislation.
For now there will be an M2.
I may be perfectly wrong (I know that some will comment that Scott26's comments ain't to be taken for the gospel, but he may be spot on with this one), but to me it makes sense: a new pocket rocket capable of sending BMW track aficionados into 'cloud nine' mode. An interesting niche market featuring a car boosting furthermore the global image of the brand. Bring it on !

And, though it's mere speculation, that might eventually explain why the daily driver oriented base M2 does not feature some of the more recent hallmark ///M goodies (S engine, CF roof, powerdome, one-piece front seats, 'discussed to death' dedicated mirrors, etc.). Not giving it all away right from the start - reserve some stuff for the track-oriented expensive puppy.

Also about the likely CSL brand reboo(s)t:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
They did evaluate 4 cylinders for application in the M2.
We have a four cylinder with Power eDrive and eBoost which can produce around 450 PS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
But the idea is also to create more hardcore versions of its current M models especially in Coupe format. The first BMW M3 CSL was criticized for being just a standard M3 and the M3 GTS was criticized for being an M3 with an aftermarket spoiler, even though their understatedness illustrated they were far from regular.
The concept [BMW 3.0 CSL Hommage] is to show an internal idea on mixing the past philosophy of CSL with today's advancement in materials to revive the lucrative CSL insignia for the ultimate M models.
Which means that the cars will be more definitive than their standard versions even more. The first example to take the exclusive road will be the all new BMW M4 GTS which will be shown as a preview concept at Pebble Beach in August [2015].
Essentially the M4 GTS will be a production model of the BMW M4 Safety Car which was the M4 GTS "Concept". In 2016 BMW M will provide its first look at concepts of two models which will wear the CSL badge as well as more pronounced bodywork, efficiency technology and lightweight features to illustrate exciting and lucrative possibilities for progressive performance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
What I meant was that back in history the CSL E9 brought its Motorsport innovation to the road. It parallels with what M are going to do to enhance the more hardcore M versions from the standard cars.
Today in general the innovation field has increased immensely as is the ever important journey to enhance performance but increase sustainability.
We are at the time where an M car with eDrive is inevitable. It won't be the M2 but an M car using some form of sustainable technology is coming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Hypothetically,
This [BMW Vision Concept GT6] would be your BMW M2 CSL...
You can definitely see similarities between both concepts, the Hommage [BMW 3.0 CSL Hommage] is a concept but the Vision GT you can see the more realistic elements applied to an existing car in this case the 2er or the M2 in which the aerodynamic packet is heavily carried over but adapted for the road and reality.
You are about to witness a new radical side of BMW M. But using the same philosophy as used within the E9 CSL series. The adaptation of Motorsport innovation for the road but this time its a much larger player field in terms of what innovation means today.
That means a variation of an eDrive drivetrain designed to enhance performance whilst also showcasing sustainability.
UPDATE (February 2017): other dedicated M2 CS threads at Bimmerpost:And to please (also) the North American forum fellows:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Both M2 CS and M4 CS are to be offered in the North American market.
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Last edited by Artemis; 08-19-2017 at 12:55 PM.. Reason: Added the excerpt picture
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      02-20-2016, 01:10 PM   #2
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YES, PLEASE.
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      02-20-2016, 01:19 PM   #3
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What is e drive? Is that BMW speak for hybrid? How are they going to cut weight adding that technology to an already heavy car...even with a 4 banger?
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      02-20-2016, 01:22 PM   #4
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400 bhp +
100kg + less weight
More downforce
Racing bucket seats
Harness option
Carbon brakes
Carbon roof
Carbon bonnet
Lighter wheel options
Cup 2 tyres
M mirrors
Bigger wing but better looking than GTS
Wider arches
Carbon front splitter
Different colour options
Ability to delete rear seats
Akrapovic exhaust
Adjustable suspension
Say £65000 basic price like GT4 say £75k for a decent spec
M decal option
Limited numbers
Delivery mid 2017

Full CSL needed please not a half way house
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      02-20-2016, 01:46 PM   #5
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I'm going to register interest and lay down a token deposit, just in case...
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      02-21-2016, 06:01 AM   #6
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Sorry, to summarise, are you after an M2 CS or M2 CSL, or indeed both?
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      02-21-2016, 07:00 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retime View Post
Sorry, to summarise, are you after an M2 CS or M2 CSL, or indeed both?
I got a base M2 on order = street-oriented. 4 seats.

M2 CS or M2 CSL, if ever commercialized = track-oriented. Hardcore.

I cannot make sound statements about the M2 CS or M2 CSL, as we got zero information confirmed. Just assuming, as we speak.
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      02-21-2016, 07:22 AM   #8
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Just like the E46 M3 CSL, the M3 GTS and the M4 GTS, IF there comes an M2 CS(L) it will only be with a DCT like gearbox and not with a manual tranny...

And it will cost even more, like the M2 already is a bargain, in my country it certainly is not

I will be excited if/when an M2 CS/L comes out offcourse.

But first >3 months waiting for my 'normal' M2...



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      02-21-2016, 07:25 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cc3 View Post
400 bhp +
100kg + less weigh
More downforce
Racing bucket seats
Harness option
Carbon brakes
Carbon roof
Carbon bonnet
Lighter wheel options
Cup 2 tyres
M mirrors
Bigger wing but better looking than GTS
Wider arches
Carbon front splitter
Different colour options
Ability to delete rear seats
Akrapovic exhaust
Adjustable suspension
Say £65000 basic price like GT4 say £75k for a decent spec
M decal option
Limited numbers
Delivery mid 2017

Full CSL needed please not a half way house
Full bankaccount needed overhere

Cheers
Robin
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      02-21-2016, 08:04 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
I got a base M2 on order = street-oriented. 4 seats.

M2 CS or M2 CSL, if ever commercialized = track-oriented. Hardcore.

I cannot make sound statements about the M2 CS or M2 CSL, as we got zero information confirmed. Just assuming, as we speak.
Your encyclopedic-like references and analyses are tantalizing, to say the least.
I remain hopeful for a hardcore M2 version, hopefully in the not-too-distant future.
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      02-21-2016, 08:30 AM   #11
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I'm guessing we'll get an M2 ZCP in the US and that's probably it for this model generation. It will have the ZCP wheels, optional adaptive suspension from the M3/M4, an ecu tune, new MDM settings, and possibly a few other smaller changes.
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      02-21-2016, 08:45 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bemo View Post
Your encyclopedic-like references and analyses are tantalizing, to say the least.
I remain hopeful for a hardcore M2 version, hopefully in the not-too-distant future.
Maybe earlier than expected. The German source at 2erTalk - who claims to have spoken to an M2 test driver - commented:
"I have never said that it will be a series car, but there won't be an M2 GTS either.
Something else is coming
HOWEVER with the M3 [E]36 once also came a 3.2L engine, with the Z3M an S54 ;-)
Simply let yourself surprise
I won't be driving long the M2 "
"Ich hab nie gesagt das der in serie kommt, aber einen m2 gts wird es auch nicht geben.
Da kommt was anderes
ABER beim M336 kam aufeinmal auch ein 3,2L Motor, beim Z3M der S54 ;-)
Lasst euch einfach überraschen
Lang werde ich den M2 nicht fahren "

(source: here)
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      02-21-2016, 08:47 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmanstyle
I'm guessing we'll get an M2 ZCP in the US and that's probably it for this model generation. It will have the ZCP wheels, optional adaptive suspension from the M3/M4, an ecu tune, new MDM settings, and possibly a few other smaller changes.
If there were no M235 racing , I would agree.

However, it surely appears that all the materials to develop a CSL are being are/already developed and are being tested right in front of us.

I doubt that there the CCBs on the M2 Motorsport pace car are there just for looks and I also question any " need" There was a 1M pace car running pace for the same series on the same race tracks without custom developed brakes Iirc.

- start with M235 update racing chassis
- throw the M performance catalog at it
- add CCBs that are on the Motorsport pace car
- add meth injection system and tune
- add rear wing and other aero recently tested with tacked on bits on the M235 racing about 6 months ago.

Add a little eye of M and wing of GTS and let the cauldron bubble... There is room and time to make a CSL concept with more carbon fiber core and roof ala M4 GTS and have it go on sale next summer as a full CSL. Then a year or two later an M2 Comp pkg model for the final years of M2 as the next M3/M4 are being readied.
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      02-21-2016, 09:38 AM   #14
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You've left out the money angle.
That is, any car which carries the CSL badge is going to draw a lot of attention, particularly at the start. And that means the profit potential on such a car is huge. IMO, that's how the discussion starts, i.e., what platform will yield the highest profit. I don't think the M2 platform will do that. There have been a number of discussions why the M2 is considered a "limited availability" car. A strictly M2 CSL platform would be faced with those same constraints, and constraints would lower profit. No such constraints seem to exist with the M3/M4 production. Which is why I think the first CSL platform will be M4 sized - unconstrained production.
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      02-21-2016, 09:57 AM   #15
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I love how a core group of you guys keeps perpetuating this baseless rumor in the hopes that if you say it often enough it will become true
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      02-21-2016, 10:52 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuddman
You've left out the money angle.
That is, any car which carries the CSL badge is going to draw a lot of attention, particularly at the start. And that means the profit potential on such a car is huge. IMO, that's how the discussion starts, i.e., what platform will yield the highest profit. I don't think the M2 platform will do that. There have been a number of discussions why the M2 is considered a "limited availability" car. A strictly M2 CSL platform would be faced with those same constraints, and constraints would lower profit. No such constraints seem to exist with the M3/M4 production. Which is why I think the first CSL platform will be M4 sized - unconstrained production.
Good point.. And I agree. I'm not concerned about which comes first. The M4 is in a cycle ahead of the M2 and has been since the E9x.

However we have an M4 GTS so if we also get an M4 CSL that would be interesting. It would have to be over $150K in US however and in serious super car territory.

I envision a CSL homage vehicle perhaps and M2 CSL because the chassis is available.
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      02-21-2016, 11:00 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Die ///M Rakete
I love how a core group of you guys keeps perpetuating this baseless rumor in the hopes that if you say it often enough it will become true
Car magazine in the UK this month says a light weight 400 bhp M2 under development so not totally baseless. Also Scott has alluded to such a car. Will get some clues when new concepts launched for 100th anniversary
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      02-21-2016, 02:34 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush View Post
What is e drive? Is that BMW speak for hybrid? How are they going to cut weight adding that technology to an already heavy car...even with a 4 banger?
E-Boost is a performance feature developed with BMW M. And was introduced on the CSL Hommage concept cars.
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      02-22-2016, 05:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Die ///M Rakete View Post
I love how a core group of you guys keeps perpetuating this baseless rumor in the hopes that if you say it often enough it will become true
It's not baseless rumors when you know the right people...
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      02-22-2016, 06:47 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Die ///M Rakete View Post
I love how a core group of you guys keeps perpetuating this baseless rumor in the hopes that if you say it often enough it will become true
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      02-22-2016, 08:16 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Die ///M Rakete View Post
I love how a core group of you guys keeps perpetuating this baseless rumor in the hopes that if you say it often enough it will become true
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      02-22-2016, 08:35 PM   #22
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Well, the M4 CS was just unofficially announced, so why not an M2 CS?
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