[chris719]

Has anyone in the US ever gotten MSP/A at their 1200 mile service? I'm going in soon and curious if I will get SAF-XJ or MSP/A, or if I should care as long as it's not XO or XJ+FM.

[PackPride85]

No one is even sure what the difference between msp/a and saf-xj is to be honest. msp/a is not new, it's been around for at least a decade if not more we just don't know who makes it (could very well be castrol). Same with saf-xj. I don't think it's a coincidence that bmw switched to msp/a when castrol stopped selling saf-xj. It's impossible to even tell if BMW is just offloading SAF-XJ stock that castrol doesn't make anymore since there is no date printed on the bottles.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by chris719

Has anyone in the US ever gotten MSP/A at their 1200 mile service? I'm going in soon and curious if I will get SAF-XJ or MSP/A, or if I should care as long as it's not XO or XJ+FM.

I have never heard of anyone getting MSP/A in the US unfortunately. That's likely to be a result of the US making or relabeling their own bottles of oils and chemicals and they just don't make MSP/A. Like if you look at the bottles in the states everything is either made in the US or relabeled for the US, if you look at bottles we have in Canada or everywhere else they're literally the exact same as what you'd get from Germany (made in Germany and labeled in German). This is good and bad, good because we get exactly what bmw specifies, bad because it is expensive af (like brake fluid for example, we get the German bottles but it is 2-3x more than in the US and we only get a 250 mL bottle while the US has 355 mL bottles).



With that aside as long as you get saf-xj as a bare minimum you are good to go imo, it might not be exactly what bmw wants but it should be fine (it is still to bmw specs). If it was a huge deal bmw would have forced the switch to MSP/A or face the warranty replacement costs. So don't worry about it, just make sure you don't get SAF-XJ + FM or SAF-XO then you should be fine.

IMO the difference between MSP/A and SAF-XJ is minor as in not life and death but maybe it will cost you a small percentage of the diffs life in the long game (otherwise bmw wouldn't have put the effort in finding a new fluid for the E diff) but nothing too too appreciable. Like if you tune a car vs. not tuning it - maybe the stock car will make it to 300,000 km without a single issue and the tuned car makes it to 250,000 km or 275,000km without issue for instance. Eitherway they likely calculated that regardless of fluid the newly recalled diff will make it to 160,000 km (extended warranty coverage end point) without failure, then the maximum life of the diff will depend on useage and of course and a better spec'ed fluid will help. So I would expect MSP/A to make the diff last longer but if you don't have MSP/A I wouldn't strees out too much - like I said it would probably be a bit of a loss in life but it's nothing like half the diffs life or anywhere near that.



SO the long answer made short is don't worry about it, get OEM fluids like MSP/A if you can or SAF-XJ if you can't and avoid SAF-XJ + FM and SAF-XO.

[F87source]

Here's what MSP/A looks like btw (it also smells like absolute garbage - literally the worst smelling fluid in the car):

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by F87source

IMO the difference between MSP/A and SAF-XJ is minor as in not life and death but maybe it will cost you a small percentage of the diffs life in the long game (otherwise bmw wouldn't have put the effort in finding a new fluid for the E diff) but nothing too too appreciable. Like if you tune a car vs. not tuning it - maybe the stock car will make it to 300,000 km without a single issue and the tuned car makes it to 250,000 km or 275,000km without issue for instance. Eitherway they likely calculated that regardless of fluid the newly recalled diff will make it to 160,000 km (extended warranty coverage end point) without failure, then the maximum life of the diff will depend on useage and of course and a better spec'ed fluid will help. So I would expect MSP/A to make the diff last longer but if you don't have MSP/A I wouldn't strees out too much - like I said it would probably be a bit of a loss in life but it's nothing like half the diffs life or anywhere near that.

SAF-XJ decreasing the life of the differential is purely speculation without a UOA. The only wording in any BMW document describing a possible difference is that MSP/A is considered a "life time fill", which we all know there is no such thing as a true life time fill fluid.

SAF-XJ has been ran in probably hundreds of thousands of BMWs at this point with zero issues. Including the F87 differential which it shares back to the F10 M5. The differential recall for the F87 was a manufacturing defect that QC should have caught. Nothing more.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

SAF-XJ decreasing the life of the differential is purely speculation without a UOA. The only wording in any BMW document describing a possible difference is that MSP/A is considered a "life time fill", which we all know there is no such thing as a true life time fill fluid.

SAF-XJ has been ran in probably hundreds of thousands of BMWs at this point with zero issues. Including the F87 differential which it shares back to the F10 M5. The differential recall for the F87 was a manufacturing defect that QC should have caught. Nothing more.

1) absolutely life decrease is speculation, it was just an analogy on my part. However bmw wouldnt change fluids after a long time on saf-xj without reason.


2) I don't think a UOA will work on the diff because the clutch pack releases alot of metal just by nature and depending on use, so it's impossible to extrapolate wear accurately especially without a large sample size as no one really does uoa on the diff.


3) yup no such as a lifetime fill, agreed here too. Bmw does every say much about their fluid but I was able to find a thread elsewhere discussing how msp/a was thinner. I will look for it again.


4) the f10 m5 diff isn't completely the same, maybe they share similar components hence the recall but they're not identical. Here's a list of all the diff p/n's https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/par...&q=33108090473


Some terminate in 2017 some don't. Theres 5 variations in this page + 1 more on the initial diagram page. So there are changes to this unit since launch.


5) I'm pretty sure it wasn't a QC issue but a mechanical issue hence the FAQ of the recall mentioning premature wear. The QC issue causing a recall was the rear subframe bolts iirc.


If you look for the f8x diff failure you'll see how many failed on track due to clutch pack wear (it was extremely common pre LCI aka pre recall), and then you can see even street cars have failed - there was an m2c here that blew a diff crossing a Texas gate. There are also threads of fluid induced failure +FM (not the cars fault). So all that together doesn't give me tremendous confidence that the diff is bullet proof but it's giving me the feeling it's finicky - hence why I recommend oem fluids. If bmw knows they have a wear issue and deliberately switched to msp/a - a reportedly thinner oil they must have done it for a reason.

[F87source]

Essentially what I'm seeing is that the fluids are a key part to the diff not failing, here's my thought process. The diffs had excessive wear issues in the past prior to the recall that also acknowledged premature wear. Post recall the diffs are still failing but I'm seeing less reports on the forum. They also fail both on the track and the street.

Next is the fluid, despite saf-xj being around for a long time bmw still moved the diff to msp/a globally while having access to both saf-xj and msp/a. So there's a reason they did this, if you had a choice of both then why did they choose msp/a during the recall that also acknowledged premature wear.

Also, the diff is known to fail with saf-xj + FM, so this makes after market oils a risk if they cater to the e9x diff as well which requires the FM booster.


All in all that's why I recommend oem fluids, you get exactly what the car needs no questions and msp/a if you can get it because bmw didn't move to it for no reason if they had access to both choices.

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by F87source

Essentially what I'm seeing is that the fluids are a key part to the diff not failing, here's my thought process. The diffs had excessive wear issues in the past prior to the recall that also acknowledged premature wear. Post recall the diffs are still failing but I'm seeing less reports on the forum. They also fail both on the track and the street.

Next is the fluid, despite saf-xj being around for a long time bmw still moved the diff to msp/a globally while having access to both saf-xj and msp/a. So there's a reason they did this, if you had a choice of both then why did they choose msp/a during the recall that also acknowledged premature wear.

Also, the diff is known to fail with saf-xj + FM, so this makes after market oils a risk if they cater to the e9x diff as well which requires the FM booster.


All in all that's why I recommend oem fluids, you get exactly what the car needs no questions and msp/a if you can get it because bmw didn't move to it for no reason if they had access to both choices.

It's also possible castrol just doesn't make saf-xj anymore (removed from their website) and the US is just using the massive stock until it's gone. Bmw bottles do not print any dates on their saf-xj.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

It's also possible castrol just doesn't make saf-xj anymore (removed from their website) and the US is just using the massive stock until it's gone. Bmw bottles do not print any dates on their saf-xj.

lets hope thats the case, then you guys can eventually get MSP/A as well.

But It's hard to imagine a stock pile that fricken big of just diff oil. Especially when all M cars get a diff oil change on break in + all the bottles that they do sell as well.


Castrol could still be making SAF-XJ for bmw still and not reselling it elsewhere, just like shell made bmw tpt 0w30 which was LL01fe, I couldn't find it anywhere. So that's another highly likely possibility.

[M Fifty]

I think they now make Castrol Transmax Limited Slip LL 75W-140. Interestingly, they recommend this should be changed every 90000 km/ 72 months.

[vrooooom]

MSP/A.

I just did. What came out is really dark grey. It’s only 3000 kms. 3 yrs.

The new one is THICK! It was kinda tough to pump it in.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by vrooooom

I just did. What came out is really dark grey. It’s only 3000 kms. 3 yrs.

The new one is THICK!

Wow, thats not a great sign. It means there was alot of wear from the clutch packs. Did you car have the break in diff oil change?

Because my car with like 8500km with 3 years on the diff oil had very clean amber colored fluid when it was drained. It was a bit darker than the new oil but not bad at all.

[vrooooom]

Originally Posted by F87source

Did you car have the break in diff oil change?

No, this is the first change since new. The first owner only changed the oil. Should I worry (no point)?

So when do you think I'll need to change that again— after a year?

This differential is not serviceable right?

MSP/A.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by vrooooom

No, this is the first change since new. The first owner only changed the oil.

So when do you think I'll need to change that again? This differential is not serviceable right?

MSP/A.

That's not right, all cars are supposed to have their diff oil changed as well during the break in service.

You should change it every 4 years, iirc bmw says 5 years but I would not leave it past 4 due to oxidation. So 4 years or 48,000 km (this is around half of what bmw wants you to do it at) whatever comes first, I also wouldn't leave it to super high mileage due to the build up of metal particles which increases wear. So if it is not to expensive I would go even lower mileage intervals.


Yes the differential oil is servicable - make sure you change the fill and drain plugs each time though, or else a leak may occur. But in terms of the diff itself only the seals are servicable along with the diff cover and other small bits like the temp sensor and screws and fasteners, the major componenets like the clutch packs are not serviceable.

[vrooooom]

So if indeed my clutch pack is worn... I'm toast? I guess w/ such low mileage per year of use, this should last me at least a decade.

This unit was imported from Canada by an individual, skipping the official local dealer. So the first service wasn't done, unfortunately.

So how would one know if it's worn prematurely?

Thanks.

[vrooooom]

60 N.m or 44 ft.lbs for the drain & fill bolt right?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by vrooooom

So if indeed my clutch pack is worn... I'm toast? I guess w/ such low mileage per year of use, this should last me at least a decade.

This unit was imported from Canada by an individual, skipping the official local dealer. So the first service wasn't done, unfortunately.

So how would one know if it's worn prematurely?

Thanks.

If a break in service hasn't been done, the excess metallic particles could just be a result of break in and nothing to be concered of. But if your next differential oil flush results in dark fluid and the mileage was low then it might be a concern because these diffs are known to have clutch packs that fail prematurely but that should have been fixed on 2017+ cars from the factory. Otherwise you should be ok.


You won't know, it will just fail or you will get diff lock errors.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by vrooooom

60 N.m or 44 ft.lbs for the drain & fill bolt right?

I will have to check.

[vrooooom]

Ops correction, it’s 6000 kms on ODO.

I’ll just do this again after a year and chk what comes out.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by vrooooom

Ops correction, it’s 6000 kms on ODO.

I’ll just do this again after a year and chk what comes out.

Good plan. BTW what oil did you use?

[vrooooom]

MSP/A.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by vrooooom

MSP/A.

Ok that's good.