[CoffeeLife]

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

That's why I dropped the money on the ap racing kit. I reached my potential and the tire potential of the mps4s so the next street tire on the 19s would have been cup 2s at $2400 a set or R compound tires which I'm not ready for.

This size opens up like 9 options of progression for me to try.

Nice thread! I also have a set of square 18 x 10 et33 on the way. Running AST 5100s, so ill see how they fit

[Anonymoose]

Originally Posted by CoffeeLife

Nice thread! I also have a set of square 18 x 10 et33 on the way. Running AST 5100s, so ill see how they fit

They will fit great with 12mm spacer. They don't fit great when the tire shop leaves the 5 mm spacer and adds the 12mm spacer so you end up with a 17MM spacer wedged in up front :|

I'm running ohlins so the spring perch is bigger. You might not even need the 12mm and can run 10mm or possibly less.

[blitzyo]

Should I install a m2csR front sway or move to stiffer nitron springs (3way)? I have their softest springs.
Having trouble at some offcamber turns, especially uphill ones.

[David.m]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

We need to have a serious talk here in the track section... what is the best way to disable the audio buttons on the steering wheel??? I keep freaking hitting it on hot laps when the steering wheel is flying all over the place! More than once I have somehow switched from music to an audiobook. Nothing kills the mindset during a lap like having some of the nerdy shit I read all of the sudden playing at full blast. Proper music is one of the biggest keys to good pace in non wheel to wheel situations - can't be having this!

I have wanted to disable the speed limiter button, 3 times on tight mountain twisties I've accidently turned it on when shifting gears (6MT), 1st time thought I had broken something as gas pedal stopped working and I had no idea what the dash light meant! Not yet been a problem on track though

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by blitzyo

Should I install a m2csR front sway or move to stiffer nitron springs (3way)? I have their softest springs.
Having trouble at some offcamber turns, especially uphill ones.

If your spring setup doesn't produce flat ride, you shouldn't only increase the front sway bar IMO.

[Daytona_550]

Fyi, Castrol SRF 1 liter at $60 on amazon. Lowest I've seen in a while.

[M2_CircuitHero]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

We need to have a serious talk here in the track section... what is the best way to disable the audio buttons on the steering wheel??? I keep freaking hitting it on hot laps when the steering wheel is flying all over the place! More than once I have somehow switched from music to an audiobook. Nothing kills the mindset during a lap like having some of the nerdy shit I read all of the sudden playing at full blast. Proper music is one of the biggest keys to good pace in non wheel to wheel situations - can't be having this!

You can listen to music while driving on track? How are you able to distinguish between the subtleties of the car?


One thing that immediately comes to mind is identifying the onset of over-rotation that's all too common with this chassis. As a general consensus, it seems like most of you guys drive without any nannies on. With music blasting, how can you tell if your roll on throttle is too much at any given point?


You mention that the wheel is 'flying all over the place'-- perhaps this is a byproduct of essentially driving with "one hand tied behind your back"? Like, think of it this way, we only receive so much input from a car when driving (feedback through the steering wheel, the seat of your pants, visual references and the audial queues) when you take one of those things away, you limit yourself from being able to accurately interpret what's going on with the car beneath you. You're always carrying the baggage from the previous corner, so your approach, while similar, is never the same. Trying to put yourself in a rhythm, or pump yourself up with music, could be the reason it feels like the car always wants to bite your hand off.


When driving at the absolute limit, it should look effortless. It should look like you're on a Sunday drive, you just so happen to be traveling at 140 mph. Ideally, there should be only 1 instance of each input, throughout any given corner. See-sawing at the wheel, on and off throttle multiple times per corner, etc are big no no's and quite dangerous in a car with that can pull as much speed as an M2.


I hope this doesn't come off knocking you or anything, just some food for thought.. I always make sure the radio is off when working with students

[M2_CircuitHero]

Originally Posted by blitzyo

Should I install a m2csR front sway or move to stiffer nitron springs (3way)? I have their softest springs.
Having trouble at some offcamber turns, especially uphill ones.

I agree with Farkle, that's a loaded question. Could be a lot of things contributing to those feelings.


Anecdotally, I installed the CSR front sway bar a few months ago and it made a world of difference and I love it! I don't have any valuable advice for your question, but tinkering with the sway bar seems like a cheap and easy way to find out if it helps. It can easily be swapped out between sessions on track.

[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by M2_CircuitHero

You can listen to music while driving on track? How are you able to distinguish between the subtleties of the car?


One thing that immediately comes to mind is identifying the onset of over-rotation that's all too common with this chassis. As a general consensus, it seems like most of you guys drive without any nannies on. With music blasting, how can you tell if your roll on throttle is too much at any given point?


You mention that the wheel is 'flying all over the place'-- perhaps this is a byproduct of essentially driving with "one hand tied behind your back"? Like, think of it this way, we only receive so much input from a car when driving (feedback through the steering wheel, the seat of your pants, visual references and the audial queues) when you take one of those things away, you limit yourself from being able to accurately interpret what's going on with the car beneath you. You're always carrying the baggage from the previous corner, so your approach, while similar, is never the same. Trying to put yourself in a rhythm, or pump yourself up with music, could be the reason it feels like the car always wants to bite your hand off.


When driving at the absolute limit, it should look effortless. It should look like you're on a Sunday drive, you just so happen to be traveling at 140 mph. Ideally, there should be only 1 instance of each input, throughout any given corner. See-sawing at the wheel, on and off throttle multiple times per corner, etc are big no no's and quite dangerous in a car with that can pull as much speed as an M2.


I hope this doesn't come off knocking you or anything, just some food for thought.. I always make sure the radio is off when working with students

Brings up a question for the track gurus. I have seen fast and smooth track driving and fast with a lot of steering corrections mid corner. usually just quick small movements. Why that? Are they trying to find the slip limit? I don't think the M2C is good enough steering feel to be that precise.

I personally try as little steering input as possible mid corner.

[M2_CircuitHero]

Originally Posted by richard in NC

Brings up a question for the track gurus. I have seen fast and smooth track driving and fast with a lot of steering corrections mid corner. usually just quick small movements. Why that? Are they trying to find the slip limit? I don't think the M2C is good enough steering feel to be that precise.

I personally try as little steering input as possible mid corner.

You're right! They say, 'he who turns least is fastest'-- and I believe that! Producing dynamism in the chassis is one of the most important aspects of driving. You can introduce a lot of direction/trajectory/rotation in car simply by your brake/throttle application.


Driving is rarely ever black and white. So, I can't speak to why some things work in certain situations and why some things don't. But, I will say as a general rule of thumb-- corrections are just that, corrections. It implies a mistake was made (big or small) and you needed to fix it

[blitzyo]

Originally Posted by M2_CircuitHero

I agree with Farkle, that's a loaded question. Could be a lot of things contributing to those feelings.


Anecdotally, I installed the CSR front sway bar a few months ago and it made a world of difference and I love it! I don't have any valuable advice for your question, but tinkering with the sway bar seems like a cheap and easy way to find out if it helps. It can easily be swapped out between sessions on track.

I've ordered both stiffer springs and the sway bar now.
I'd just have to experiment, I guess.
I have nitron's lightest 685/400 lbin (rear coilover) springs on currently.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by M2_CircuitHero

You can listen to music while driving on track? How are you able to distinguish between the subtleties of the car?


One thing that immediately comes to mind is identifying the onset of over-rotation that's all too common with this chassis. As a general consensus, it seems like most of you guys drive without any nannies on. With music blasting, how can you tell if your roll on throttle is too much at any given point?


You mention that the wheel is 'flying all over the place'-- perhaps this is a byproduct of essentially driving with "one hand tied behind your back"? Like, think of it this way, we only receive so much input from a car when driving (feedback through the steering wheel, the seat of your pants, visual references and the audial queues) when you take one of those things away, you limit yourself from being able to accurately interpret what's going on with the car beneath you. You're always carrying the baggage from the previous corner, so your approach, while similar, is never the same. Trying to put yourself in a rhythm, or pump yourself up with music, could be the reason it feels like the car always wants to bite your hand off.


When driving at the absolute limit, it should look effortless. It should look like you're on a Sunday drive, you just so happen to be traveling at 140 mph. Ideally, there should be only 1 instance of each input, throughout any given corner. See-sawing at the wheel, on and off throttle multiple times per corner, etc are big no no's and quite dangerous in a car with that can pull as much speed as an M2.


I hope this doesn't come off knocking you or anything, just some food for thought.. I always make sure the radio is off when working with students

This notion is true at the novice levels, as the saying goes "smooth is fast". But that's up to a very limited threshold, upon which fast isn't necessarily smooth.

Seesawing the wheel is different than constantly catching the car which is by definition the "limit". So if you're driving around effortlessly than there is no way you're anywhere near the limit. Looking at data the steering inputs and throttle inputs generally should be isolated such that one is at constant at any given point. If your steering is wild and throttle is wild concurrently then yes there's opportunity to smooth it out.

EDIT: realize we're largely saying the same thing as it relates to concurrent inputs.

[M2_CircuitHero]

Originally Posted by DRLane

This notion is true at the novice levels, as the saying goes "smooth is fast". But that's up to a very limited threshold, upon which fast isn't necessarily smooth.

Seesawing the wheel is different than constantly catching the car which is by definition the "limit". So if you're driving around effortlessly than there is no way you're anywhere near the limit. Looking at data the steering inputs and throttle inputs generally should be isolated such that one is at constant at any given point. If your steering is wild and throttle is wild concurrently then yes there's opportunity to smooth it out.

Yeah definitely, I can see that. Maybe this is reflective of the way one chooses to ride that limit. At the end of the day, there's no "right" way to do it (all things being fundamentally sound). Steering isn't the only way to introduce motion into the equation. Akin to what you said, what I've found to be really important is the rate at which you introduce inputs to the car. Cars turn better when you let them know what's coming next.


Ya know, all of this stuff is relative.. There's only so much you can convey through words over the internet, but I do see where you're going. My point about seesawing was more directed to his comment on the wheel flying around. Like you said, seesawing is different than constantly catching the car.

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by M2_CircuitHero

You can listen to music while driving on track? How are you able to distinguish between the subtleties of the car?


One thing that immediately comes to mind is identifying the onset of over-rotation that's all too common with this chassis. As a general consensus, it seems like most of you guys drive without any nannies on. With music blasting, how can you tell if your roll on throttle is too much at any given point?


You mention that the wheel is 'flying all over the place'-- perhaps this is a byproduct of essentially driving with "one hand tied behind your back"? Like, think of it this way, we only receive so much input from a car when driving (feedback through the steering wheel, the seat of your pants, visual references and the audial queues) when you take one of those things away, you limit yourself from being able to accurately interpret what's going on with the car beneath you. You're always carrying the baggage from the previous corner, so your approach, while similar, is never the same. Trying to put yourself in a rhythm, or pump yourself up with music, could be the reason it feels like the car always wants to bite your hand off.


When driving at the absolute limit, it should look effortless. It should look like you're on a Sunday drive, you just so happen to be traveling at 140 mph. Ideally, there should be only 1 instance of each input, throughout any given corner. See-sawing at the wheel, on and off throttle multiple times per corner, etc are big no no's and quite dangerous in a car with that can pull as much speed as an M2.


I hope this doesn't come off knocking you or anything, just some food for thought.. I always make sure the radio is off when working with students

I know what you are saying here, not taking it as a knock or anything like that.

The wheel flying all over the place was a bit of an exaggeration... yes smooth is the preference but as you know at the limit quick corrections are sometimes necessary (not talking about seesawing the wheel, on/off throttle through corners - that is a whole different discussion beyond yes/no to music). Feel & visual cues are my go to's - I can react much quicker to them than any audio input. That being said - I pick & chose my music time. Obviously when racing there is no music (if only because there is no radio in my race car ) Kidding... but I do actively dampen my hearing like many others to compensate for loud racecar & also to be able to communicate with my crew on the radio. Also if the only way you can tell that you have applied too much throttle is through audible cues then yes you are certainly at a point where music should be off... And if you are in a teaching environment then absolutely no music as well (although I do not really like riding passenger on the track I will often go out with friends/customers that ask me to).

[M2_CircuitHero]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

I know what you are saying here, not taking it as a knock or anything like that.

The wheel flying all over the place was a bit of an exaggeration... yes smooth is the preference but as you know at the limit quick corrections are sometimes necessary (not talking about seesawing the wheel, on/off throttle through corners - that is a whole different discussion beyond yes/no to music). Feel & visual cues are my go to's - I can react much quicker to them than any audio input. That being said - I pick & chose my music time. Obviously when racing there is no music (if only because there is no radio in my race car ) Kidding... but I do actively dampen my hearing like many others to compensate for loud racecar & also to be able to communicate with my crew on the radio. Also if the only way you can tell that you have applied too much throttle is through audible cues then yes you are certainly at a point where music should be off... And if you are in a teaching environment then absolutely no music as well (although I do not really like riding passenger on the track I will often go out with friends/customers that ask me to).

Cheers! That's understandable. When it comes to audial queues, I don't think anyone solely relies on it. But it's definitely there, and a useful part of the equation for sure! It's almost like ripe fruit in my mind. Why not try and take it ya know? Listening to what the car is doing/telling you isn't necessarily a bad thing, is it? Especially when running plugs, comms, etc. I almost feel like it's intentionally blinding yourself in a sportscar like the M2 with very little feedback to give. Listening and distinguishing between unintentional/unplanned events, can not only save you, but I think is a big part of driving to the best of your ability.


I like to operate under the premise that something is better than nothing. They're all just pieces to the puzzle. If you can get even 1% better, or 1% clearer information, anything at all.. Then, when you put it all together at the end, you'll have amounted to a noticeable and measurable gain. It's a point from the book Atomic Habits. But there's definitely truth to the madness. If you haven't given it a read, check it out, it's worth the experience


Like I mentioned before, it's purely food for thought

[M2_CircuitHero]

Originally Posted by DRLane

This notion is true at the novice levels, as the saying goes "smooth is fast". But that's up to a very limited threshold, upon which fast isn't necessarily smooth.

Seesawing the wheel is different than constantly catching the car which is by definition the "limit". So if you're driving around effortlessly than there is no way you're anywhere near the limit. Looking at data the steering inputs and throttle inputs generally should be isolated such that one is at constant at any given point. If your steering is wild and throttle is wild concurrently then yes there's opportunity to smooth it out.

EDIT: realize we're largely saying the same thing as it relates to concurrent inputs.

One last thing lol! I agree we are saying a lot of the same thing. But I do want to disagree with the notion smooth isn't necessarily fast! I don't buy it! Relatively speaking, with all things being equal, the less disturbance you can introduce, the better everything else will work for you. However, I do understand that you sometimes have introduce "poverty" to achieve a desired outcome-- think introducing a smidge of on-throttle understeer, to lift off and gain rotation for corner exit opportunity. You can definitely play with the car's inherent limitations. But if I can play less than you, I will be faster... All things being equal of course

[richard in NC]

Plus, I imagine there's a difference between qualifying (getting the fastest lap possible), driving for consistency and longevity (fast but make the tires last) and situational ability (correcting for oil/marbles/traffic/tire wear).

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by M2_CircuitHero

One last thing lol! I agree we are saying a lot of the same thing. But I do want to disagree with the notion smooth isn't necessarily fast! I don't buy it! Relatively speaking, with all things being equal, the less disturbance you can introduce, the better everything else will work for you. However, I do understand that you sometimes have introduce "poverty" to achieve a desired outcome-- think introducing a smidge of on-throttle understeer, to lift off and gain rotation for corner exit opportunity. You can definitely play with the car's inherent limitations. But if I can play less than you, I will be faster... All things being equal of course

The principles of smooth is faster is true. Less disruptive inputs = eek out every last bit of tire grip. But in reality as a human and not a computer model, you don't get to that limit without constantly testing, adapting, rinse repeat. You can't take a fast corner at the limit without fast hands, and if there is nothing but smooth inputs then you're leaving time on the table to a more receptive and willing driver. "Looking effortless" =\ driving at the tire's limit. Maybe at the driver's limit 🤷🏻*♂️

[M2_CircuitHero]

Originally Posted by DRLane

The principles of smooth is faster is true. Less disruptive inputs = eek out every last bit of tire grip. But in reality as a human and not a computer model, you don't get to that limit without constantly testing, adapting, rinse repeat. You can't take a fast corner at the limit without fast hands, and if there is nothing but smooth inputs then you're leaving time on the table to a more receptive and willing driver. "Looking effortless" =\ driving at the limit.

It feels like you're stuck on that on that quote, yet still somehow agree with it. I guess there's more than one way to skin a cat. I would rather see a driver stay ahead of himself, be in control of what's coming next, than have to rely on his "fast hands".. It implies and sounds like reactive driving, to me at least. Perhaps, your definition of fast hands is different than mine(?) I don't think I've ever come across a driver, coach, or instructor that encouraged the faster your inputs, the faster you'll drive.


Again, just want to reiterate, I'm not saying you always want one singular input, all the time, always. Driving is rarely ever black and white. Yes I understand and encourage drivers to be sensitive to the occurrences (testing, adapting, rinsing process you mentioned) that happen throughout the span of a corner.

EDIT:

My last statement applies to drivers in the category you're referring to in your replies-- seasoned drivers, top-tier level competitors in their domain type of people.. 9 times outta 10 you're slowing these guys down, because their default is always faster, deeper, later to try and make the time work for them.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by M2_CircuitHero

It feels like you're stuck on that on that quote, yet still somehow agree with it. I guess there's more than one way to skin a cat. I would rather see a driver stay ahead of himself, be in control of what's coming next, than have to rely on his "fast hands".. It implies and sounds like reactive driving, to me at least. Perhaps, your definition of fast hands is different than mine(?) I don't think I've ever come across a driver, coach, or instructor that encouraged the faster your inputs, the faster you'll drive.


Again, just want to reiterate, I'm not saying you always want one singular input, all the time, always. Driving is rarely ever black and white. Yes I understand and encourage drivers to be sensitive to the occurrences (testing, adapting, rinsing process you mentioned) that happen throughout the span of a corner.

EDIT:

My last statement applies to drivers in the category you're referring to in your replies-- seasoned drivers, top-tier level competitors in their domain type of people.. 9 times outta 10 you're slowing these guys down, because their default is always faster, deeper, later to try and make the time work for them.

Yeah we're going in circles. We're largely in agreement, but Ive been around too many club level instructors that only want to hammer the "smooth is fast" approach. Which is smart and safer especially for the willing body riding shotgun.

My point is sure, but "fast isn't always smooth". As of result of these instructors, too many focus on smooth, smooth, smooth, and therefore are uncomfortable with the reality that going faster means getting comfortable with variables moving faster as well. Which means you have to be faster in recognizing what you're feeling and what the inputs are needed to direct the outcome. This won't necessarily be smooth or look effortless. That's it.

[M2_CircuitHero]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Yeah we're going in circles. We're largely in agreement, but Ive been around too many club level instructors that only want to hammer the "smooth is fast" approach. Which is smart and safer especially for the willing body riding shotgun.

My point is sure, but "fast isn't always smooth". As of result of these instructors, too many focus on smooth, smooth, smooth, and therefore are uncomfortable with the reality that going faster means getting comfortable with variables moving faster as well. Which means you have to be faster in recognizing what you're feeling and what the inputs are needed to direct the outcome. This won't necessarily be smooth or look effortless. That's it.

Wow, yeah that's a good way to put it-- I'm gonna use that in the future, thank you


You are correct fast isn't always smooth and HPDE instructors definitely mindlessly preach smooth is king!


I think some context helps here, because it seems like we've strayed very far off the original topic I was shooting for-- we were originally talking about a guy that listens to music while driving at the limit, complaining that the steering wheel is "flying" all about. That seemed like a dangerous combination to me lol


FWIW, I've found HPDE Instructors to be uncomfortable with a lot of things too. Engaging kerbs and rumbles immediately comes to mind.. I think it might be a byproduct of "experience" that breeds instructors, more than anything else. You hang around long enough, go to enough events, sooner or later you'll get approached about instructing. Instructing doesn't make you Michael Schumacher, nor does being Michael Schumacher mean you should instruct. Instructors are almost like gate keepers for people that want to begin the journey of driving. So, I see where you're coming from.

[Wolfman’s Brother]

I cant read good