BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
M2 Technical Topics > Mechanical Maintenance: Break-in | Oil & Fluids | Servicing | TSB | Recalls > Confused about what oil to use

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-10-2022, 09:16 PM   #287
edycol
Major
1486
Rep
1,477
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
BTW I think shell improved PPE 5w40 alot, they probably either used more GTL or added some PAO because pour point iirc dropped from the low mins 20's to minus 30's to -40C
https://www.shell-livedocs.com/data/...2b4b5dbce0.pdf


Here's an old TDS showing the 3.88 HTHS btw: https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/for...40-pdf.363257/
That current SP version is out almost a year. I actually think they had this version few years back, then they introduced SN+ version which was bit lighter, then reintroduced this for SP purposes.
-40 pour point indicates GTL, not PAO. PAO drops pour point a lot. I would say heavy GTL stock, that is why high pour point, but high HTHS and low Noack.
Yes, that 3.88 is older version when they just introduced GTL.
Appreciate 1
F87source7179.00
      01-10-2022, 09:22 PM   #288
F87source
Major General
F87source's Avatar
No_Country
7179
Rep
7,343
Posts

Drives: Bmw M2
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: .

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by edycol View Post
That current SP version is out almost a year. I actually think they had this version few years back, then they introduced SN+ version which was bit lighter, then reintroduced this for SP purposes.
-40 pour point indicates GTL, not PAO. PAO drops pour point a lot. I would say heavy GTL stock, that is why high pour point, but high HTHS and low Noack.
Yes, that 3.88 is older version when they just introduced GTL.
Yeah that makes sense, seeing mobil1 with high PAO has a ~-60C pour point. This is the probably the same formulation from last year when I emailed shell and they told me it was a 3.8 HTHS, not quite 3.88 but still really good. I wish we had it in paper proof though. I also really hope specifications stay frozen or improve in the coming years, I hate it when it flucctutaes so much (well only if hths drops).

Interesting, is that why HTHS dropped to 3.66 when the introduced SN+ back then?
__________________
Click on the link below to see a compiled list of every review I have ever written:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...2#post30368242
Appreciate 0
      01-10-2022, 09:25 PM   #289
F87source
Major General
F87source's Avatar
No_Country
7179
Rep
7,343
Posts

Drives: Bmw M2
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: .

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by edycol View Post
TPT 0W40 M is specifically made for BMW. Lot's of PAO, -52c pour point, HTHS around 3.9 and Noack as far as I remember in 7% value range. It us really good stuff.
WOW that really is good oil! Too bad it is relatively expensive, and doesn't offer too much higher of an HTHS.

Is this oil discontinued and bmw canada is just pulling it from whatever is left in storage? Or is it still being made? I know MSP/A (I wish I stocked up if this was the case, but it was really dang expensive so I wouldn't have bought alot) might be pulled in Canada soon which absolutely sucks, I think (but am not sure) we will no longer get the German bottled products like MTF, diff oil, and brake fluid and get the same stuff the US gets.
__________________
Click on the link below to see a compiled list of every review I have ever written:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...2#post30368242
Appreciate 0
      01-10-2022, 09:41 PM   #290
edycol
Major
1486
Rep
1,477
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by edycol View Post
That current SP version is out almost a year. I actually think they had this version few years back, then they introduced SN+ version which was bit lighter, then reintroduced this for SP purposes.
-40 pour point indicates GTL, not PAO. PAO drops pour point a lot. I would say heavy GTL stock, that is why high pour point, but high HTHS and low Noack.
Yes, that 3.88 is older version when they just introduced GTL.
Yeah that makes sense, seeing mobil1 with high PAO has a ~-60C pour point. This is the probably the same formulation from last year when I emailed shell and they told me it was a 3.8 HTHS, not quite 3.88 but still really good. I wish we had it in paper proof though. I also really hope specifications stay frozen or improve in the coming years, I hate it when it flucctutaes so much (well only if hths drops).

Interesting, is that why HTHS dropped to 3.66 when the introduced SN+ back then?
Yeah, it dropped to 3.66 and not sure why they had that drop. Probably some logistics issues.
Appreciate 0
      01-10-2022, 09:42 PM   #291
edycol
Major
1486
Rep
1,477
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by edycol View Post
TPT 0W40 M is specifically made for BMW. Lot's of PAO, -52c pour point, HTHS around 3.9 and Noack as far as I remember in 7% value range. It us really good stuff.
WOW that really is good oil! Too bad it is relatively expensive, and doesn't offer too much higher of an HTHS.

Is this oil discontinued and bmw canada is just pulling it from whatever is left in storage? Or is it still being made? I know MSP/A (I wish I stocked up if this was the case, but it was really dang expensive so I wouldn't have bought alot) might be pulled in Canada soon which absolutely sucks, I think (but am not sure) we will no longer get the German bottled products like MTF, diff oil, and brake fluid and get the same stuff the US gets.
I think it is discontinued. Canada probably had more in stock bcs. 0W while here they used TPT 5W30.
Appreciate 0
      01-10-2022, 09:57 PM   #292
F87source
Major General
F87source's Avatar
No_Country
7179
Rep
7,343
Posts

Drives: Bmw M2
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: .

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by edycol View Post
Yeah, it dropped to 3.66 and not sure why they had that drop. Probably some logistics issues.
Lets just hope that it was a one time logisitcal issue and HTHS can only go up from here on out.

Overall me personally, I am pretty happy with the new reformulation. It has a much better additive package (lowered sodium by 50% in favor of magnesium, and more moly, phosphorous, and zinc) imo and HTHS is right back up where it needs to be at 3.8. Hopefully next update zinc will go up a bit more to reach 1k ppm and flash point issues go away, and if we are really lucky a bit higher hths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edycol View Post
I think it is discontinued. Canada probably had more in stock bcs. 0W while here they used TPT 5W30.
Ah that's unfortunate.
__________________
Click on the link below to see a compiled list of every review I have ever written:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...2#post30368242
Appreciate 0
      01-10-2022, 10:02 PM   #293
M1500Z
First Lieutenant
M1500Z's Avatar
400
Rep
336
Posts

Drives: a white BMW
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: TX

iTrader: (4)

I just did a quick search and you can still get the BMW M Power 0w40 oil in various places. Prices range from $10-15 a quart ($15 a quart is flashbacks to my S62 days). I could run that, do a UOA and then pick up more old stock if it looks good.

Next option is Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5w40 LL01. This looks comparable although I guess you've got to dig if you want to find the HTHS, NOACK, etc.

Another option a friend found while digging was Redline Professional 5w40 which is LL01 and Porsche A40 certified, similar price point, etc. The HTHS is a hair lower at 3.7.

Oh, and I should add that my reasoning for extending OCIs with more track use isn't due to monetary constraints/hassle of changing oils, but because it seems wasteful to be changing oil after every weekend when I'm doing 5-6 weekends a year.
Appreciate 1
vrooooom317.50
      01-10-2022, 10:09 PM   #294
vrooooom
New BMW owner
vrooooom's Avatar
Philippines
318
Rep
832
Posts

Drives: 2018 BMW M2 LCI
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Philippines

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by edycol View Post
But, if one is just occasionally go to track, street oils are best solution. They still have a lot if additives that will easily deal with track. Also, Porsche A40 approved oils are track capable. That approval has specific track test (8hrs Nurburgring simulation).
Good to know. Thanks. The Castrol A3/B4 I got has A40.
__________________
2018 BMW M2 LCI BM3 Stage 2 + MPE + FTP charge pipe + MST V2 Inlet + TurboSmart DV + CSF FMIC + AA Hi-flow Downpipe + Turner Rear Shifter Bushing + Wiechers Strut Brace + Bilstein B16 PSS10 + Apex VS-5RS
Appreciate 0
      01-10-2022, 10:19 PM   #295
F87source
Major General
F87source's Avatar
No_Country
7179
Rep
7,343
Posts

Drives: Bmw M2
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: .

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1500Z View Post
I just did a quick search and you can still get the BMW M Power 0w40 oil in various places. Prices range from $10-15 a quart ($15 a quart is flashbacks to my S62 days). I could run that, do a UOA and then pick up more old stock if it looks good.

Next option is Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5w40 LL01. This looks comparable although I guess you've got to dig if you want to find the HTHS, NOACK, etc.

Another option a friend found while digging was Redline Professional 5w40 which is LL01 and Porsche A40 certified, similar price point, etc. The HTHS is a hair lower at 3.7.

Oh, and I should add that my reasoning for extending OCIs with more track use isn't due to monetary constraints/hassle of changing oils, but because it seems wasteful to be changing oil after every weekend when I'm doing 5-6 weekends a year.
1) I would try PPE 5w40 (quaker state euro 5w40 is the same oil so buy the one that is easiest to find/cheaper) first and see if that is enough before scouring the earth to find the remenants of m power 0w40 for what could possibly be minor gains. Also the additive package in PPE is alot newer and extremely robust so that could close the performance delta down even further especially since hths is not much higher on the mpower oil and the amount of pao's might not be enough to make a huge difference.


2) if PPE is not enough then go valvoline

3) then go redline (as it is a bit more expensive)

4) then go m power last as it really is an unreliable source and I wouldn't want to depend on a discontinued oil whose future supply is unknown.


But yeah understandable about not wanting to change filters so much, but it is cheap insurance for your engine so I would probably want to do it again before hitting the track. Street use should be fine but not for the track.
__________________
Click on the link below to see a compiled list of every review I have ever written:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...2#post30368242
Appreciate 1
M1500Z399.50
      01-10-2022, 10:40 PM   #296
F87source
Major General
F87source's Avatar
No_Country
7179
Rep
7,343
Posts

Drives: Bmw M2
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: .

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vrooooom View Post
Good to know. Thanks. The Castrol A3/B4 I got has A40.
Don't you have access to shell helix ultra as well? That is essentially the same thing as PPE (well some say PPE is the slightly watered down version of helix) but might even be a bit better.
__________________
Click on the link below to see a compiled list of every review I have ever written:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...2#post30368242
Appreciate 0
      01-10-2022, 11:26 PM   #297
edycol
Major
1486
Rep
1,477
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1500Z View Post
I just did a quick search and you can still get the BMW M Power 0w40 oil in various places. Prices range from $10-15 a quart ($15 a quart is flashbacks to my S62 days). I could run that, do a UOA and then pick up more old stock if it looks good.

Next option is Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5w40 LL01. This looks comparable although I guess you've got to dig if you want to find the HTHS, NOACK, etc.

Another option a friend found while digging was Redline Professional 5w40 which is LL01 and Porsche A40 certified, similar price point, etc. The HTHS is a hair lower at 3.7.

Oh, and I should add that my reasoning for extending OCIs with more track use isn't due to monetary constraints/hassle of changing oils, but because it seems wasteful to be changing oil after every weekend when I'm doing 5-6 weekends a year.
Redline Professional is rebadged Phillips 66 Kendall. Literally!!!
Appreciate 1
M1500Z399.50
      01-10-2022, 11:29 PM   #298
edycol
Major
1486
Rep
1,477
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by edycol View Post
Yeah, it dropped to 3.66 and not sure why they had that drop. Probably some logistics issues.
Lets just hope that it was a one time logisitcal issue and HTHS can only go up from here on out.

Overall me personally, I am pretty happy with the new reformulation. It has a much better additive package (lowered sodium by 50% in favor of magnesium, and more moly, phosphorous, and zinc) imo and HTHS is right back up where it needs to be at 3.8. Hopefully next update zinc will go up a bit more to reach 1k ppm and flash point issues go away, and if we are really lucky a bit higher hths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edycol View Post
I think it is discontinued. Canada probably had more in stock bcs. 0W while here they used TPT 5W30.
Ah that's unfortunate.
HTHS won't go above 4cp, ever. It would not meet fuel economy requirements by MB229.5, LL01 etc.
Also, Zinc has to stay in 900-1000ppm range. Too much Zinc is really not good for timing chain guides. And new API SP, updated LL approvals have timing chain tests.
Appreciate 0
      01-10-2022, 11:30 PM   #299
edycol
Major
1486
Rep
1,477
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1500Z View Post
I just did a quick search and you can still get the BMW M Power 0w40 oil in various places. Prices range from $10-15 a quart ($15 a quart is flashbacks to my S62 days). I could run that, do a UOA and then pick up more old stock if it looks good.

Next option is Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5w40 LL01. This looks comparable although I guess you've got to dig if you want to find the HTHS, NOACK, etc.

Another option a friend found while digging was Redline Professional 5w40 which is LL01 and Porsche A40 certified, similar price point, etc. The HTHS is a hair lower at 3.7.

Oh, and I should add that my reasoning for extending OCIs with more track use isn't due to monetary constraints/hassle of changing oils, but because it seems wasteful to be changing oil after every weekend when I'm doing 5-6 weekends a year.
Don't shy away from Valvoline.
Appreciate 1
M1500Z399.50
      01-11-2022, 12:02 AM   #300
F87source
Major General
F87source's Avatar
No_Country
7179
Rep
7,343
Posts

Drives: Bmw M2
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: .

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by edycol View Post
HTHS won't go above 4cp, ever. It would not meet fuel economy requirements by MB229.5, LL01 etc.
Also, Zinc has to stay in 900-1000ppm range. Too much Zinc is really not good for timing chain guides. And new API SP, updated LL approvals have timing chain tests.
I see, well hopefully it will reach 3.9 again, but i'm not holding my breath. But as long as HTHS doesn't drop lower than 3.8 I am ok.

But I do hope shell addresses flash point drops, and brings zinc as close to the 1k ppm range that would be nice (but since it is in the 900 range already I don't think that will change so hopefully it doesn't drop).
__________________
Click on the link below to see a compiled list of every review I have ever written:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...2#post30368242
Appreciate 0
      01-11-2022, 07:50 AM   #301
edycol
Major
1486
Rep
1,477
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by edycol View Post
HTHS won't go above 4cp, ever. It would not meet fuel economy requirements by MB229.5, LL01 etc.
Also, Zinc has to stay in 900-1000ppm range. Too much Zinc is really not good for timing chain guides. And new API SP, updated LL approvals have timing chain tests.
I see, well hopefully it will reach 3.9 again, but i'm not holding my breath. But as long as HTHS doesn't drop lower than 3.8 I am ok.

But I do hope shell addresses flash point drops, and brings zinc as close to the 1k ppm range that would be nice (but since it is in the 900 range already I don't think that will change so hopefully it doesn't drop).
I would not be that stuck on HTHS. Porsche is using in actual races Mobil1 0W40 with HTHS of 3.6. M2 cooling capability is exceptional, so I think one has to thread fine line not to compromise performance with oil that has too high of HTHS.
Appreciate 2
F87source7179.00
chris7197273.00
      01-11-2022, 08:24 AM   #302
vrooooom
New BMW owner
vrooooom's Avatar
Philippines
318
Rep
832
Posts

Drives: 2018 BMW M2 LCI
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Philippines

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Don't you have access to shell helix ultra as well? That is essentially the same thing as PPE (well some say PPE is the slightly watered down version of helix) but might even be a bit better.
Yeah I have and it’s what in the car right now. But I also bought a box of the Castrol Edge A3B4 so I’m good for a while. .

I used to think that oil is oil. Synthetic is synthetic but you guys are talking like it’s fine wine. Actually more than that.
Appreciate 0
      01-11-2022, 09:54 AM   #303
edycol
Major
1486
Rep
1,477
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vrooooom View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Don't you have access to shell helix ultra as well? That is essentially the same thing as PPE (well some say PPE is the slightly watered down version of helix) but might even be a bit better.
Yeah I have and it’s what in the car right now. But I also bought a box of the Castrol Edge A3B4 so I’m good for a while. .

I used to think that oil is oil. Synthetic is synthetic but you guys are talking like it’s fine wine. Actually more than that.
While I like fine wine, I prefer single malt whiskey in BMW
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 1
F87source7179.00
      01-11-2022, 12:54 PM   #304
F87source
Major General
F87source's Avatar
No_Country
7179
Rep
7,343
Posts

Drives: Bmw M2
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: .

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by edycol View Post
I would not be that stuck on HTHS. Porsche is using in actual races Mobil1 0W40 with HTHS of 3.6. M2 cooling capability is exceptional, so I think one has to thread fine line not to compromise performance with oil that has too high of HTHS.
Cooling is ok stock, but if you tune it oil temps will be right up to limp mode.
__________________
Click on the link below to see a compiled list of every review I have ever written:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...2#post30368242
Appreciate 0
      01-11-2022, 03:04 PM   #305
edycol
Major
1486
Rep
1,477
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by edycol View Post
I would not be that stuck on HTHS. Porsche is using in actual races Mobil1 0W40 with HTHS of 3.6. M2 cooling capability is exceptional, so I think one has to thread fine line not to compromise performance with oil that has too high of HTHS.
Cooling is ok stock, but if you tune it oil temps will be right up to limp mode.
Ok. But in that case improved cooling is an answer. Higher HTHS will further push oil temperatures up.
Once we are in 3.6-4cp category, unless endurance racing, it is more important what additives oil has and shear stability of an oil.
Even 300V 5W40 is 4cp. And that thing is like bench mark of race oils.
Appreciate 0
      01-11-2022, 03:45 PM   #306
F87source
Major General
F87source's Avatar
No_Country
7179
Rep
7,343
Posts

Drives: Bmw M2
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: .

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by edycol View Post
Ok. But in that case improved cooling is an answer. Higher HTHS will further push oil temperatures up.
Once we are in 3.6-4cp category, unless endurance racing, it is more important what additives oil has and shear stability of an oil.
Even 300V 5W40 is 4cp. And that thing is like bench mark of race oils.
Those temperatures are with improved cooling. The n55 m2 does have a weakness in its cooling system for a few reasons:

1) The bumper openings are relatively small vs. the m2c and even m235i.

2) The large intercooler cuts a massive chunk out of the radiator.

3) The oil cooler is smaller than the s55 due to its mounting location and there really isn't much option for alternatives unless you mount one behind the grilles but that will be impossible for dct guys and it will really restrict flow to the already suffering radiator.
__________________
Click on the link below to see a compiled list of every review I have ever written:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...2#post30368242
Appreciate 0
      01-11-2022, 05:14 PM   #307
edycol
Major
1486
Rep
1,477
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by edycol View Post
Ok. But in that case improved cooling is an answer. Higher HTHS will further push oil temperatures up.
Once we are in 3.6-4cp category, unless endurance racing, it is more important what additives oil has and shear stability of an oil.
Even 300V 5W40 is 4cp. And that thing is like bench mark of race oils.
Those temperatures are with improved cooling. The n55 m2 does have a weakness in its cooling system for a few reasons:

1) The bumper openings are relatively small vs. the m2c and even m235i.

2) The large intercooler cuts a massive chunk out of the radiator.

3) The oil cooler is smaller than the s55 due to its mounting location and there really isn't much option for alternatives unless you mount one behind the grilles but that will be impossible for dct guys and it will really restrict flow to the already suffering radiator.
Hmmm. That is not good.
Bcs. yes higher HTHS will offer better protection, but it will send engine to limp mode faster. I personally would go Redline 5W40 or Mobil1 5W50 as it has Porsche A40 and MB229.3 approvals. HTHS 4.4.
I guess very low coolant concentration and heat at max and ventilation at max
Appreciate 1
F87source7179.00
      02-01-2022, 12:14 AM   #308
M1500Z
First Lieutenant
M1500Z's Avatar
400
Rep
336
Posts

Drives: a white BMW
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: TX

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1500Z View Post
I have another sample I'm about to send in that has 2 days at COTA (1 of which was in the cold rain so I doubt it put much energy into the oil). Both days saw peak ambient temps over 40°F cooler so it'll be interesting to compare the two samples.
Here's that UOA. I was forced to change this oil as part of BMWs service so it didn't get much use—the analyst seems almost annoyed that it was changed so quickly. Maybe I should stop checking the box saying I'm interested in extending usage (what's this for anyway?). Anyway, they also seem, again, to not be concerned about the shearing down and are saying go for 4 days. I'm going to try Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5w40 next so we should have that for comparison.
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 1
F87source7179.00
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:03 AM.




m2
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST