[georgere]

Haha, would it be faster then M4? I bet not until M4 is for sale. M3 is not so let's beat it up to prop up the stubby M2 - the new e46.

Love bmw cars but the marketing department play is just too obvious not to see...

[tetsuo111]

[QUOTE=mose121;24226526]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

He's just pointing out that there's a difference between a competition package and a competition model, although the difference is really irrelevant. Competition models are basically equipped the same as the competition packages used to be. It's more confusing since the M2C engine change coincided with the change in how they identify the model, and there's no longer a "base" M2 offered. The M2C engine change was done more for emissions purposes than for designating a "special" M2 model variant with an engine based on the M3/4. Unlike the M5, where you can still get a "base" M5 and a M5C model, but the engines in both are very similar. So basically, they should have just stayed with the ZCP Competition Package identifier and slapped a competition badge on the back, but as usual the Germans make everything overly complicated and model naming is no exception to that. It's similar to when they stopped using the "xi" identifier and changed to xDrive.

I miss the days when BMW management was dominated by engineers, before the current crop of marketers and designers who can't seem to stop. adding. M. badges. everywhere.

[turbo8765]

What was the peak speed for each car (M2C and M3C) in these tests?

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by chris719

Looks good for sure, but I don't put a lot of stock in laptimes on such a short track done on different days and different conditions.

WTF are you talking about? Magny-Cours is a 2.7 mi circuit.

If you don't put much stock in lap times, what do you put stock in?

[spetsnazos]

[QUOTE=tetsuo111;24227596]

Originally Posted by mose121

I miss the days when BMW management was dominated by engineers, before the current crop of marketers and designers who can't seem to stop. adding. M. badges. everywhere.

Every company is dominated by marketing, it's 2019. You should see what the inside of google looks like. Engineers are a dying breed.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by pruettfan

Lap times should be taken with a huge grain of salt. I have a buddy with an identical M2 as I have, he is very experienced, great driver. He runs 4-5 seconds faster than I do and I am faster than most. I have seen guys in slow cars drive incredible lap times and I have seen guys in very capable cars turn in very slow lap times. That is not to even get in the discussion of weather, track condition or tire condition/type. Point is the only lap time that is really relevant is the lap time you can turn in your car.

So, you track a Toyota Corolla then? Because lap times don't matter and it just matters what you can do in your car, right?

This whole discussion really confuses me. The results are the results. They aren't the sole, canonical source that determines M2C performance relative to the competition, but they're a data point.

Lots of folks seem really anxious to dismiss these results as irrelevant, but no one has provided any good reason why.

The M2C has proven its competence on this circuit on this day. Give it the credit it's due, or provide a credible counter argument.

[Ghostriderf80]

.02 of a second faster than an M3 competition. Could be the wind... or the driver had a poo before jumping in.

4 seconds on the outgoing M2

ALSO in Europe where these cars are built its called a competition pack. In the USA where they are raised and detuned they are ZCP with amber lights and big wing mirrors you cannot see from.

[/QUOTE]

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by Ghostriderf80

.02 of a second faster than an M3 competition. Could be the wind... or the driver had a poo before jumping in.

4 seconds on the outgoing M2

ALSO in Europe where these cars are built its called a competition pack. In the USA where they are raised and detuned they are ZCP with amber lights and big wing mirrors you cannot see from.

[/QUOTE]
ZCP (Zee Competition Pack) is the BMW option code for Competition Package. They are called Competition Package here in the US as well just like everywhere else. Also, please enlighten us more how US spec cars are detuned compared to EU spec counterparts. I really hope you won't come back saying "EU spec has 450HP while US spec makes 444HP". Both EU and US spec M3 (or any other BMW model) make the same amount of power so neither is detuned. In Europe, the DIN metric horsepower (PS) is used while US uses HP. 1 PS = 0.986 HP ==> 450PS = 444HP.

[spetsnazos]

Originally Posted by Ghostriderf80

.02 of a second faster than an M3 competition. Could be the wind... or the driver had a poo before jumping in.

4 seconds on the outgoing M2

ALSO in Europe where these cars are built its called a competition pack. In the USA where they are raised and detuned they are ZCP with amber lights and big wing mirrors you cannot see from.

[/QUOTE]

Dawg you need an extra tune to bypass the OPF just to get the same whp as the best country on earth

[Ghostriderf80]

ZCP (Zee Competition Pack) is the BMW option code for Competition Package. They are called Competition Package here in the US as well just like everywhere else. Also, please enlighten us more how US spec cars are detuned compared to EU spec counterparts. I really hope you won't come back saying "EU spec has 450HP while US spec makes 444HP". Both EU and US spec M3 (or any other BMW model) make the same amount of power so neither is detuned. In Europe, the DIN metric horsepower (PS) is used while US uses HP. 1 PS = 0.986 HP ==> 450PS = 444HP.[/QUOTE]

There is a difference on how they drive and feel. For example drove M3 basic with DCT, (a real transmission) back to back one in Canada on 401 and one in UK. The difference is very apparent. Stiffest suspension setting, noise, how it handles and power. Shift speeds. The Canadian version had much more body roll, not overly more but enough to notice. It had interestingly the finger gesture navigation in it. This is not an option in EU and no dealer heard of it till this G20.

You say 450 or 444 well actually it does not matter because that HP you will not feel. Fuel can make lots of difference. Germany you get 100 shell race fuel, I am sure you can get 94 in Canada. It may or may not be equivalent, but on 100 octane this car is a killer.

Lots of this can be address with a software flash.

It did not feel as torquey as the one in UK, the orange fingers really ruined the front.

I ended up with a M3 Competition with GTS software, ESS tune and lots of other nice touches etc.... Sadly no F1Rs.

So I don't particularly want to get into a debate or argument with the forum. Its my experience.

Audi and VW are very much similar in how detuned they are in Canada. Anyhow, enjoy your Saturday. If you live on both sides of the pond you can experience the difference yourself.

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by Ghostriderf80

ZCP (Zee Competition Pack) is the BMW option code for Competition Package. They are called Competition Package here in the US as well just like everywhere else. Also, please enlighten us more how US spec cars are detuned compared to EU spec counterparts. I really hope you won't come back saying "EU spec has 450HP while US spec makes 444HP". Both EU and US spec M3 (or any other BMW model) make the same amount of power so neither is detuned. In Europe, the DIN metric horsepower (PS) is used while US uses HP. 1 PS = 0.986 HP ==> 450PS = 444HP.

There is a difference on how they drive and feel. For example drove M3 basic with DCT, (a real transmission) back to back one in Canada on 401 and one in UK. The difference is very apparent. Stiffest suspension setting, noise, how it handles and power. Shift speeds. The Canadian version had much more body roll, not overly more but enough to notice. It had interestingly the finger gesture navigation in it. This is not an option in EU and no dealer heard of it till this G20.

You say 450 or 444 well actually it does not matter because that HP you will not feel. Fuel can make lots of difference. Germany you get 100 shell race fuel, I am sure you can get 94 in Canada. It may or may not be equivalent, but on 100 octane this car is a killer.

Lots of this can be address with a software flash.

It did not feel as torquey as the one in UK, the orange fingers really ruined the front.

I ended up with a M3 Competition with GTS software, ESS tune and lots of other nice touches etc.... Sadly no F1Rs.

So I don't particularly want to get into a debate or argument with the forum. Its my experience.

Audi and VW are very much similar in how detuned they are in Canada. Anyhow, enjoy your Saturday. If you live on both sides of the pond you can experience the difference yourself.[/QUOTE]
You still haven't answered my question. You claimed NA cars are detuned. Please prove your point with credible source aside from your butt dyno. Also, of course these cars are going to make different amount of power on different fuel (94 vs 100). However, this is not what "detuned" means. Show us EU and NA cars make different power on the same day, same dyno and same gas then you'll have a point.

[adc]

There is a difference on how they drive and feel. For example drove M3 basic with DCT, (a real transmission) back to back one in Canada on 401 and one in UK. The difference is very apparent. Stiffest suspension setting, noise, how it handles and power. Shift speeds. The Canadian version had much more body roll, not overly more but enough to notice. It had interestingly the finger gesture navigation in it. This is not an option in EU and no dealer heard of it till this G20.

You say 450 or 444 well actually it does not matter because that HP you will not feel. Fuel can make lots of difference. Germany you get 100 shell race fuel, I am sure you can get 94 in Canada. It may or may not be equivalent, but on 100 octane this car is a killer.

Lots of this can be address with a software flash.

It did not feel as torquey as the one in UK, the orange fingers really ruined the front.

I ended up with a M3 Competition with GTS software, ESS tune and lots of other nice touches etc.... Sadly no F1Rs.

So I don't particularly want to get into a debate or argument with the forum. Its my experience.

Audi and VW are very much similar in how detuned they are in Canada. Anyhow, enjoy your Saturday. If you live on both sides of the pond you can experience the difference yourself.

You are completely deluded. As in utterly, genuinely, 100% wrong, factually. Even about the mirrors. But of course, enjoy your placebo.


Oh wait, you didn’t drive a US car, you drove a Canadian spec one. I’ll wait for our Canadian neighbors to chime in. I’m sure they get detuned like crazy north of the border... doubt they make 200 HP up there.

[Sedan_Clan]

I don't see this as any surprise that the ///M2 Comp.Package is an equal performer, more or less, to the ///M3 version. What else would you expect when many of the components are the same??? It's like being surprised that two DD sized tits feel about the same, plus or minus different nipple placement or areola size.

[cptobvious]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I don't see this as any surprise that the ///M2 Comp.Package is an equal performer, more or less, to the ///M3 version. What else would you expect when many of the components are the same??? It's like being surprised that two DD sized tits feel about the same, plus or minus different nipple placement or areola size.

:

Someone get this genius a scotch. The man deserves a scotch, I said!!!

[Ghostriderf80]

Originally Posted by adc

You are completely deluded. As in utterly, genuinely, 100% wrong, factually. Even about the mirrors. But of course, enjoy your placebo.


Oh wait, you didn’t drive a US car, you drove a Canadian spec one. I’ll wait for our Canadian neighbors to chime in. I’m sure they get detuned like crazy north of the border... doubt they make 200 HP up there.

you mean to tell me the mirror is exactly the same. lol you check your blind spot or did you manage to get real mirrors from IND. keep interneting mate.

[Jvalde1024]

What do you know lol that's cool tho

[turbo8765]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I don't see this as any surprise that the ///M2 Comp.Package is an equal performer, more or less, to the ///M3 version. What else would you expect when many of the components are the same??? It's like being surprised that two DD sized tits feel about the same, plus or minus different nipple placement or areola size.

It's surprising because it's basically the same weight, smaller tires, and 10% less power with otherwise very similar hardware.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by turbo8765

It's surprising because it's basically the same weight, smaller tires, and 10% less power with otherwise very similar hardware.

5" shorter wheelbase and much smaller fuel tank probably has something to do with that. And wider tires are not always better on the track.

Originally Posted by Ghostriderf80

.02 of a second faster than an M3 competition. Could be the wind... or the driver had a poo before jumping in.

Best post of the thread.

Seriously, going out to 1/100th of a second is just funny on a 2 minute course with a human driver, in different conditions, different tire wear, you name it.

[jlhymb]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

...
This whole discussion really confuses me. The results are the results. They aren't the sole, canonical source that determines M2C performance relative to the competition, but they're a data point.

Lots of folks seem really anxious to dismiss these results as irrelevant, but no one has provided any good reason why.

The M2C has proven its competence on this circuit on this day. Give it the credit it's due, or provide a credible counter argument.

It's not that the times are necessarily irrelevant, but rather there is not enough evidence to suggest the times are actually different across some of the cars. Specifically, the m2c, cayman s, m3 zcp, and tt rs.

The counter argument you seek comes from underlying concepts in any undergraduate engineering/stats book.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by doug_999

5" shorter wheelbase and much smaller fuel tank probably has something to do with that. And wider tires are not always better on the track.



Best post of the thread.

Seriously, going out to 1/100th of a second is just funny on a 2 minute course with a human driver, in different conditions, different tire wear, you name it.

Agree. A sneeze by the driver separates the middle of the pack here.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by jlhymb

It's not that the times are necessarily irrelevant, but rather there is not enough evidence to suggest the times are actually different across some of the cars. Specifically, the m2c, cayman s, m3 zcp, and tt rs.

Not enough evidence to suggest the times are actually different? WTF does that even mean?

Originally Posted by jlhymb

The counter argument you seek comes from underlying concepts in any undergraduate engineering/stats book.

So now I need an undergrad in engineering & statistics to understand an argument you haven't even made? Can I suggest maybe an undergrad course or two in English?

Here's a sentence with some big words in it for you. Try it on for size and let me know if this gets me into the discussion:

It is incumbent upon the author to present their argument in a fashion which can be most easily comprehended by the intended audience.

For anyone not interested in an intellectual circle jerk:

If you're going to make an argument, at least try to make sense. Especially when talking to us plebes.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Not enough evidence to suggest the times are actually different? WTF does that even mean?

It means that with a .02 second difference on a 2 minute course, with multiple variables, the differences in times are not statistically significant.