BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW M2 Forum > BMW M2 Discussions > C/D says M2c no faster than OG

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-09-2019, 07:54 AM   #45
CSBM5
Lieutenant Colonel
CSBM5's Avatar
1045
Rep
1,977
Posts

Drives: 2019 M2 Comp, 2011 M3, etc
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Raleigh, NC

iTrader: (1)

It's hilarious that C&D titled their test like that. I assume they're laughing at threads like these where nobody bothered to fact check their own numbers.

From their own published test data for the M2 vs the M2C:

0-100mph 10.2, 9.1 seconds
0-130mph 19.1, 15.9 seconds
60-130mph 15.0, 11.9 seconds

Of course it's not the least bit surprising the 0-60 times are very close as that is so much dependent on hooking up the tires, and the M2C has a ton of torque and it's pretty hard to hook the tires cleanly (from personal experience) as it comes on so hard.

So their own test data show the M2C to be significantly faster. The M2C will open up an ever increasing gap that becomes huge.
__________________
Current Stable:
2019 F87 M2 Competition 6MT, LBB, slicktop, exec pkg
2011.5 E90 M3 6MT Silverstone II, slicktop, Dinan/Eibach, Apex 9.5/10.5x19 with PS4S
2006 E90 330i 6MT Electric Red, ZSP (M2C replaced this one -- it's now for sale )
2007 E91 328i Silver, slushbox, Eibach fr/E93 M3 rear sway bars, 219Ms

Last edited by CSBM5; 02-09-2019 at 08:06 AM. Reason: corrected data
Appreciate 2
trey100580.50
Robin_NL4300.00

      02-09-2019, 09:39 AM   #46
Artemis
Moderator
Artemis's Avatar
Belgium
8751
Rep
8,744
Posts

Drives: BMW M2 (MG 6MT)
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Sweden View Post
"And the Academy Award for Best Picture: "La La Land" !"
[APPLAUSE] [MUSIC] [SPEECHES]
"Guys-guys, I'm sorry, no, there's a mistake: "Moonlight", you guys won Best Picture... This is not a joke. I'm afraid they read the wrong thing."



Starting from 02:30 onwards:
__________________
“For ’tis the mind that makes the body rich” (W. Shakespeare, The Taming of the Shrew, Act 4, Scene 3)
Appreciate 0
      02-10-2019, 03:34 PM   #47
Mint
Private First Class
73
Rep
143
Posts

Drives: 2016 M2 6MT
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: West LA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupes View Post
Also, heads up, in a few years another M2 will come out that's even faster than the current M2 and M2C. It will be up to you to decide if it still represents the same value that caused all of us to pull the trigger the first time around.
Do you have a source that confirms there will be a new M2?
Appreciate 0
      02-10-2019, 06:19 PM   #48
AlpsRider
Lieutenant Colonel
AlpsRider's Avatar
976
Rep
1,709
Posts

Drives: M2 Competition, LBB, 6MT
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mint View Post
Do you have a source that confirms there will be a new M2?
Even if they come out with another M2 in 2022, it will have to bring more to the table than extra power. The M2C is so easily tuneable with a flash tune that the potential power output is already more than the stock chassis would handle. A new model will probably also be either 6MT or ZF8. I'm not fond of the new dashboard in the 3 series, which is probably what a new M2 will have. Get the old school classic M2/M2C while you can 😉. Of course being an M2C owner I have a completely unbiased opinion 😁.
Appreciate 0
      02-11-2019, 06:01 AM   #49
TripleU
New Member
United_States
25
Rep
29
Posts

Drives: 2017 M2
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (1)

I don't post here often to have any weight on my opinion, but thread after thread I see M2 and M2C owners bicker. I don't understand why there's all these arguments on whose cars are better.

Both the original M2 and the M2C are great cars in their own way and both have their pros and cons. I'll concede the M2C is objectively the better car, no denying that. Just sick of seeing owners trying to detract each others' cars when both are fine cars.

And there will always be better cars than both the M2 and M2C, so just enjoy what we have.
__________________
Current: 2017 Alpine White M2 DCT

Past: 2015 Lexus IS 250, 2014 Volkswagen CC R-Line
Appreciate 4
afwares1026.50
BBoyM327.00
tranck210.50
bri1042794.50

      02-11-2019, 06:31 AM   #50
.2pdk
Private
122
Rep
94
Posts

Drives: M2 LCI
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: .

iTrader: (0)

^^^ My thoughts exactly.

I suspect that most folks hereabouts don't track their cars on a regular basis so arguing about the superior performance of the M2C at the margin is silly IMHO.
Appreciate 2
afwares1026.50
D22M2317.50

      02-11-2019, 09:27 AM   #51
afwares
Lieutenant
afwares's Avatar
United_States
1027
Rep
527
Posts

Drives: 2018 M2 LCI 6MT LBB
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Chandler, AZ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TripleU View Post
I don't post here often to have any weight on my opinion, but thread after thread I see M2 and M2C owners bicker. I don't understand why there's all these arguments on whose cars are better.

Both the original M2 and the M2C are great cars in their own way and both have their pros and cons. I'll concede the M2C is objectively the better car, no denying that. Just sick of seeing owners trying to detract each others' cars when both are fine cars.

And there will always be better cars than both the M2 and M2C, so just enjoy what we have.
A lot of it is just unresolved developmental stuff. On the playground, some people were absolutely certain their dad could beat up some other kid's dad. And maybe they could have, but the fights never happened. Fast forward 20-30 years, and all those unresolved questions come back up on forums like this. And this one is tame. Stick around long enough and you'll see stuff like this...

M2C Owner: I have no doubt my M2C could beat an M2 around the Djibouti International Raceway.

M2 Owner: Maybe, but I don't track my car, it's just a daily driver.

M2C Owner: Good luck with that. I used to have an M2 and I once tried to bring a dozen donuts home, and realized I forgot the cheese danish, and the car went into limp mode. The M2 just wasn't up to the task.

M2 Owner: You know there is no International Raceway in Djibouti, right?

M2C Owner: You use Comfort Mode on the highway, you're a witch!
Appreciate 5
BBoyM327.00
MR_M2364.00
.2pdk122.00
D22M2317.50

      02-11-2019, 09:44 AM   #52
Poochie
Luxury at the redline :)
Poochie's Avatar
United_States
1385
Rep
1,651
Posts

Drives: 2016 M2
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NYC

iTrader: (1)

I don't care what anyone claims, that S55 is a torque-monster; it was so powerful that they had to originally detune the power so it could keep traction on the original M4. Quite the opposite with the N55 and that's saying a lot.

I get that the M2 guys doesn't want to accept this, as it's human nature to claim what you own is better than the Jones but logic will dictate that M2C won this race before it even started..

#Facts

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...3#post16196119

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-drive-review/
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 1
Robin_NL4300.00

      02-11-2019, 10:08 AM   #53
CSBM5
Lieutenant Colonel
CSBM5's Avatar
1045
Rep
1,977
Posts

Drives: 2019 M2 Comp, 2011 M3, etc
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Raleigh, NC

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
It's hilarious that C&D titled their test like that. I assume they're laughing at threads like these where nobody bothered to fact check their own numbers.

From their own published test data for the M2 vs the M2C:

0-100mph 10.2, 9.1 seconds
0-130mph 19.1, 15.9 seconds
60-130mph 15.0, 11.9 seconds

Of course it's not the least bit surprising the 0-60 times are very close as that is so much dependent on hooking up the tires, and the M2C has a ton of torque and it's pretty hard to hook the tires cleanly (from personal experience) as it comes on so hard.

So their own test data show the M2C to be significantly faster. The M2C will open up an ever increasing gap that becomes huge.
Looking further at C&D's own test data, specifically at the 1/4 mile data also shows the M2C to be significantly faster, so the title of their road test is profoundly misleading when their own test data shows otherwise.

1/4 mile data from C&D for M2 and M2C:

12.7@110mph, 12.4@116mph

That 6mph difference in trap speed is indicative of the substantial increase in power/weight ratio as is the 3/10ths quicker ET. Of course ET is far more dependent on the 60' time (how well you can launch the car and hook the tires in that first 1.8 seconds or so...unfortunately, they don't provide 60' times, so we can't evaluate their launch).
__________________
Current Stable:
2019 F87 M2 Competition 6MT, LBB, slicktop, exec pkg
2011.5 E90 M3 6MT Silverstone II, slicktop, Dinan/Eibach, Apex 9.5/10.5x19 with PS4S
2006 E90 330i 6MT Electric Red, ZSP (M2C replaced this one -- it's now for sale )
2007 E91 328i Silver, slushbox, Eibach fr/E93 M3 rear sway bars, 219Ms
Appreciate 1
Robin_NL4300.00

      02-11-2019, 11:29 AM   #54
booya_45
Private
20
Rep
54
Posts

Drives: 2017 M2
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Philadelphia

iTrader: (0)

There is no doubt the M2C is faster. That article even said it was. There is always going to be something better and faster available. Be happy with your car! Stop lusting for something bigger and better. Learn to enjoy what you have because it is already unique in its own way!

Last edited by booya_45; 02-11-2019 at 11:30 AM. Reason: English much?
Appreciate 0
      02-11-2019, 02:35 PM   #55
XutvJet
Colonel
1629
Rep
2,474
Posts

Drives: 2016 M235 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Kansas City

iTrader: (-1)

The M2C is definitely a faster car (1/4 mile trapspeeds don't lie) and I commend BMW for tuning the S55 in the M2C to deliver power is a more linear and tractable fashion. I firmly believe that if you tune the M2C, you're going to negate what BMW sought to accomplish with the power delivery and TRACTION. All tunes increase low and midrange power and that simply overwhelms the tires as the torque surge is so strong. A tuned M2C will likely be slower in the 1/4 mile and one the road course because it will be roasting the tires and hard to handle.

I think the N55 and S55 M2s are great. I could have either, but it's really hard for me to not like the simplicity of the N55 and lightly used M2. In a 1/4 mile race, the M2 is not going to be much slower than the M2C and just a downpipe would make it pretty dang close. A conservative flash tune on the N55 would make it even better.

The N55 in the M2 is very tractable. My M235 makes similar power to an M2 and I love the flexibility of the motor. You can push the car hard on the street without the sense of it trying to kill you. The N55 is far easier to work on and MUCH cheaper to service. The N55 in the M2/M235 is mildly modded by BMW for reliability and hard use.

While the S55 is stellar, I do worry about the long-term running costs and potential issues. One very big and concerning issue in older, 50K+ mile S55s (being reported on the M3/M4 forums now) is the "intercooler" heat exchanger leaking coolant directly into the combustion chamber. While this type of intercooling is more efficient vs the N55's more standard air to air intercooling, the S55's intercooling requires a lot of moving parts, a pump, and fluid-filled heat exchanger. BMW's history with the long-term reliability of cooling parts sucks. We're now seeing this in the S55s. If the leak was really bad, it could hydrolock the motor or impact the oil so that it loses it's viscosity and results in a spun rod bearing. Either one will result in a $10-20K+ repair bill as the S55 repair costs are so astronomical and amusing.

If you want all out power, less power reducing heat soak, and the latest and greatest, the M2C is the winner. If you want better long-term reliability, simplicity, reduced running costs, and a car you can drive harder on the street, the M2 is the winner.
__________________
Country over party
Appreciate 6
tranck210.50
Poochie1384.50
SConn58.50
afwares1026.50

      02-11-2019, 02:56 PM   #56
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
Robin_NL's Avatar
Netherlands
4300
Rep
7,233
Posts

Drives: HS M2 Competition
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands/ Lilyhammer, Norway

iTrader: (0)

I changed to M2C because of one thing: the S55. I had some issues with the N55 in my OG M2 when driving hard so I see the N55 only acoustically as the better engine but for the rest it's not an exciting engine for trackdays imo. Heatsoak is only one point, it does not rev freely and is out of breath beyond 6500 or even 6000rpm to be honest. It doesn't have much headroom for tuning or you're willing to spend thousands without any warranty.

Nice engine but I expected more of it..
So if you want a more reliable engine and be faster on track and street M2C is winner. No contest. But you have to pay to play...I do understand that.

Enjoy your M2s great car

Cheers
Robin
Appreciate 4
Poochie1384.50
CSBM51044.50
cntzl3748.50
tranck210.50

      02-11-2019, 04:58 PM   #57
akkando
Brigadier General
2238
Rep
3,106
Posts

Drives: 2017 M2 LBB DCT
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
The M2C is definitely a faster car (1/4 mile trapspeeds don't lie) and I commend BMW for tuning the S55 in the M2C to deliver power is a more linear and tractable fashion. I firmly believe that if you tune the M2C, you're going to negate what BMW sought to accomplish with the power delivery and TRACTION. All tunes increase low and midrange power and that simply overwhelms the tires as the torque surge is so strong. A tuned M2C will likely be slower in the 1/4 mile and one the road course because it will be roasting the tires and hard to handle.
BM3 allows tunes to reduce torque in whatever gear you want so you can have less traction issues. SO you could reduce target boost by 20% across gears 1-3 for example but have the full power of the tune in higher gears.
Appreciate 1
epic45.00

      02-11-2019, 05:11 PM   #58
trey100
Colonel
trey100's Avatar
581
Rep
2,011
Posts

Drives: 2016 M3 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New York

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
It's hilarious that C&D titled their test like that. I assume they're laughing at threads like these where nobody bothered to fact check their own numbers.

From their own published test data for the M2 vs the M2C:

0-100mph 10.2, 9.1 seconds
0-130mph 19.1, 15.9 seconds
60-130mph 15.0, 11.9 seconds

Of course it's not the least bit surprising the 0-60 times are very close as that is so much dependent on hooking up the tires, and the M2C has a ton of torque and it's pretty hard to hook the tires cleanly (from personal experience) as it comes on so hard.

So their own test data show the M2C to be significantly faster. The M2C will open up an ever increasing gap that becomes huge.
Looking further at C&D's own test data, specifically at the 1/4 mile data also shows the M2C to be significantly faster, so the title of their road test is profoundly misleading when their own test data shows otherwise.

1/4 mile data from C&D for M2 and M2C:

12.7@110mph, 12.4@116mph

That 6mph difference in trap speed is indicative of the substantial increase in power/weight ratio as is the 3/10ths quicker ET. Of course ET is far more dependent on the 60' time (how well you can launch the car and hook the tires in that first 1.8 seconds or so...unfortunately, they don't provide 60' times, so we can't evaluate their launch).
I think their DCT test was a 12.5 at 113. That's what they were comparing it too. That being said, I think that test was an anomaly as many other road tests show the 1/4 mile trap of the OG around 110.

As a counterpoint, I will say that I have an F80 6MT and no way I was running a 12.5 or 12.4 in the 1/4 mile. 13.0 at 116 was what I kept running. Traction on the F80/S55 is difficult to manage, at least with a manual. That's why I take all these arguments over tenths with a grain of salt. The trap speed does show the ultimate power of the S55 though.
Appreciate 0
      02-11-2019, 07:06 PM   #59
CSBM5
Lieutenant Colonel
CSBM5's Avatar
1045
Rep
1,977
Posts

Drives: 2019 M2 Comp, 2011 M3, etc
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Raleigh, NC

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by trey100 View Post
I think their DCT test was a 12.5 at 113. That's what they were comparing it too. That being said, I think that test was an anomaly as many other road tests show the 1/4 mile trap of the OG around 110.

As a counterpoint, I will say that I have an F80 6MT and no way I was running a 12.5 or 12.4 in the 1/4 mile. 13.0 at 116 was what I kept running. Traction on the F80/S55 is difficult to manage, at least with a manual. That's why I take all these arguments over tenths with a grain of salt. The trap speed does show the ultimate power of the S55 though.
No, the data I quoted from C&D was with the DCT for both...I included the links to their tests for each.
__________________
Current Stable:
2019 F87 M2 Competition 6MT, LBB, slicktop, exec pkg
2011.5 E90 M3 6MT Silverstone II, slicktop, Dinan/Eibach, Apex 9.5/10.5x19 with PS4S
2006 E90 330i 6MT Electric Red, ZSP (M2C replaced this one -- it's now for sale )
2007 E91 328i Silver, slushbox, Eibach fr/E93 M3 rear sway bars, 219Ms
Appreciate 0
      02-11-2019, 08:02 PM   #60
mr_lab_rat
Lieutenant
mr_lab_rat's Avatar
198
Rep
501
Posts

Drives: 2017 M2, 2018 X1
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Vancouver

iTrader: (0)

This is so pointless. The tests are not valid unless they take both cars out on the same day.
Both cars are awesome and each has its own pros and cons.
Appreciate 2
epic45.00

      02-11-2019, 08:08 PM   #61
Kothar
Private
Canada
43
Rep
89
Posts

Drives: 17 M2
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: London ontario

iTrader: (0)

I'm lost..one says the n55 is simpler and more reliable and another says the opposite? Whatever you have they are both great!
Appreciate 0
      02-11-2019, 10:04 PM   #62
trey100
Colonel
trey100's Avatar
581
Rep
2,011
Posts

Drives: 2016 M3 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New York

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey100 View Post
I think their DCT test was a 12.5 at 113. That's what they were comparing it too. That being said, I think that test was an anomaly as many other road tests show the 1/4 mile trap of the OG around 110.

As a counterpoint, I will say that I have an F80 6MT and no way I was running a 12.5 or 12.4 in the 1/4 mile. 13.0 at 116 was what I kept running. Traction on the F80/S55 is difficult to manage, at least with a manual. That's why I take all these arguments over tenths with a grain of salt. The trap speed does show the ultimate power of the S55 though.
No, the data I quoted from C&D was with the DCT for both...I included the links to their tests for each.
Here it is

Photo may be unclear. See this link:

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...c-test-review/
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2019, 05:29 PM   #63
Io
Enlisted Member
Belgium
87
Rep
37
Posts

Drives: BMW M2 LCI DCT LBB
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

No surprise here. Sure, the M2C has marginally better performances than the M2's (source: http://www.zeperfs.com/en/duel5975-7280.htm and, for more details, http://www.zeperfs.com/en/match5975-7280.htm), nice (optional) seats, and cooler mirrors. But the price to pay is huge: a significant regression in terms of aesthetic (subjective) and sound (not so subjective) combined to a castrated engine delivering its maximum power at 5250 rpm (M2: 6500 rpm). Yes, the M2C's engine can rotate up to 7500rpm, but what the point if the power remains constant from 5250rpm? At low rpm, the M2 is even more torquey than the M2C. From a financial perspective, the M2C is more expensive and depreciates as fast as the M2, at least here in Europe. And if, with the M2C, the goal of BMW was to put back the M2 well ahead of its main competitor, the TT RS, they clearly failed: http://www.zeperfs.com/en/duel6234-7280.htm.
At the end, both M2s are still pretty awesome and fun to drive, but for a possible real improvement of the M2 concept, my 2 cents is that it's better to wait for the M2CS (if not too extreme nor expensive), or for the M2 2.0 and its promising S58 engine.
Now, for folks wealthy enough to buy an M2 only to track it from time to time, and who don't care at all about losing its warranty or about its residual value, it makes sense to upgrade to the M2C and its S55 easily tunable to >500HP and with excellent cooling performances.

Last edited by Io; 02-12-2019 at 05:34 PM.
Appreciate 1
      02-12-2019, 07:27 PM   #64
CSBM5
Lieutenant Colonel
CSBM5's Avatar
1045
Rep
1,977
Posts

Drives: 2019 M2 Comp, 2011 M3, etc
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Raleigh, NC

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Io View Post
...combined to a castrated engine delivering its maximum power at 5250 rpm (M2: 6500 rpm). Yes, the M2C's engine can rotate up to 7500rpm, but what the point if the power remains constant from 5250rpm?
I almost thought you were joking here. Yes the M2C is rated at 405hp @ 5230–7000rpms (USA spec), and the point is completely about the "area under the hp vs rpm curve"...it's massive throughout the 5200-7000 range and results in the car pulling like a wild beast well past 7000rpms. Peak hp quotes are actually not all that important since what really matters is the area under the hp vs rpm curve and of course proper gearing. Case in point my E90 M3 is rated at 414hp at 8300rpms...the M3 screams like a banshee from 6000-8400 and hits a peak at 8300, but it has a lot less area under that hp versus rpm curve vs the M2C even though it technically reaches a higher peak hp.

TLDR -- one would much rather have a large area under the curve with constant HP output from 5200-7000rpms than some motor that reaches a similar but spiked peak HP value -- the former will always be significantly faster.
__________________
Current Stable:
2019 F87 M2 Competition 6MT, LBB, slicktop, exec pkg
2011.5 E90 M3 6MT Silverstone II, slicktop, Dinan/Eibach, Apex 9.5/10.5x19 with PS4S
2006 E90 330i 6MT Electric Red, ZSP (M2C replaced this one -- it's now for sale )
2007 E91 328i Silver, slushbox, Eibach fr/E93 M3 rear sway bars, 219Ms
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2019, 08:47 PM   #65
Karmic Man
Captain
Karmic Man's Avatar
Australia
775
Rep
926
Posts

Drives: M2C (Pending delivery)
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: World

iTrader: (0)

Same day...M2C running on low octane 95, stock ECU vs M2 6MT & DCT

Fast forward to 3:56 and watch the race, nuff said!

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...ight=m2c+vs+m2

Appreciate 2
      02-12-2019, 11:37 PM   #66
GerardzM
Second Lieutenant
194
Rep
228
Posts

Drives: BMW M2
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

How is this still even being debated lol?

Welp...some details on that s58 are out, looks like everything else is irrelevant at this point.

These new models are making our cars look ancient already.
Appreciate 2
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:53 AM.




m2
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST