[F87source]

Introduction:

As hinted to by the title I am going to be reviewing the BMS F series N55 intercooler for my 2017 bmw m2 with a 6 speed manual transmission. Before we begin I have to extend a shout out to BMS for giving me a discount to review this intercooler, but like always I will be writing an unbiased review.


Credit:
All images in this review were taken by me.


Disclaimer:

Any technical advice, installation instruction, or product installation, decision to purchase a product is done so at your own risk I will not be responsible for personal injuries, injuries to others or any living being, any damage to your car, or any property damage.


Customer Service:

As per usual BMS customer service is absolutely top notch, you will always get in contact with a human and most of the time within minutes of your email - like it is fricken shocking how fast they reply I literally just put down my phone and I instantly get an email back. Props to BMS on this from they are extremely good at reply times, like I cannot commend them enough for how fricken good their response rate is, even on weekends too 1000/10 BMS. (Unlike another intercooler company who never got back to me ever, just an auto reply from their email server and that was it).

But fast reply times are no good if the customer support is not knowledgeable or rude. Well I must inform you BMS customer service is insanely knowledgeable and insanely patient, no matter how many questions were asked they will always reply promptly and never hint that they are getting frustrated with you. Again 10/10 BMS your customer service is impeccable and should be the benchmark of bmw parts vendors.


Shipping:


So lets begin with a quick discussion regarding the shipping of this intercooler:

1) Shipping/Processing: this intercooler was shipped via Fedex from California to Canada and it was incredibly fast taking only a couple of days to arrive. Processing time was about 1-2 days after placing the order which was also incredibly quick compared to other bmw parts vendors. The intercooler also arrived undamaged and in perfect condition which is always nice.

2) Packaging: The packaging is exceptional with a thick cardboard box on the outside and incredibly thick but soft foam that was cut out to be a clam shell where the intercooler would sit inside a perfect cut out for it. Overall the packaging is very nice and there literally would be no way for it to be damaged (even from a drop or abusive handling) unless it was punctured by a really long object.


Credit: F87source


Overview:

Now lets move onto the overview of this intercooler and take a look at some of the images of the exterior.


Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source


The exterior of the BMS intercooler is extremely nice. The welds are great - there are no welding stalactites that I could see inside the intercooler. The exterior finish coating is nice and smooth, and does not have any scratches. The fins were straight and unbent and the intercooler step also had the air deflectors inside on the hot side. The intercooler inlet and outlet to the charge pipe ends were smooth, polished, and did not have any deformations. The interior of the end tanks were also clean of any casting abnormalities. Also like all aftermarket intercoolers the metal end tanks and inlet/outlets are very nice for users looking to push high horse power levels and alot more boost than stock, this should increase reliability and durability over stock. Speaking of durability the BMS intercooler was absolutely solid it felt sturdy and tough, the core itself likely due to its bar and plate design felt extremely ruggeded and likely able to take more punishment without damage from road debris compared to the stock intercooler. Overall this is a really nice intercooler for the $329 price, and certainly feels like it is more premium than the price suggests.


Stock intercooler vs the BMS intercooler (Dimensions):


Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source

Core dimensions:
Stock (LXWXH): 49.5 cm X 10 cm X 14.5 cm
BMS (LXWXH main core, LXWXH step): 51 cm X 12 cm X 15 cm, 51 cm X 4 cm X 6.5 cm

So a quick summary on this section we see that the bms intercooler has a negligibly longer core (can’t go too much longer than stock or you compromise fit and end tank design) but nonetheless it is longer. The BMS intercooler is also 2 cm wide than stock which increases the volume of the intercooler allowing for a higher thermal capacity before heat soaking, the bms intercooler’s main core section has the same height as the stock intercooler, but it does include a step adding and extra 331.5 cm2 of surface area and 1,326 cm3 of volume which will aide in cooling. The bms intercooler is also significantly heavier than stock, I could not get a measurement of weight but it was atleast 3X heavier than stock. Overall the BMS intercooler offers more surface area, volume, and weight compared to the stock intercooler.


Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source

Stock intercooler inlet and outlet: Inner diameter = 54 mm, outer diameter = 61 mm



Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source

BMS intercooler inlet and outlet: Inner diameter = 54 mm, outer diameter = 61 mm

So just looking at the inlet and outlet diameters they are the same on the BMS intercooler and stock intercooler so there shouldn’t be any fitment complications on this regard.



Fin Density:

Stock intercooler:


Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source

Looking at the stock intercooler we noticed a few things about the fin design, the first one is that the fins have a louvered design. This increases the surface area of each fin which will help with cooling. Also we can see the fin design is extremely spaced which results in a low fin density of ~7 fins per cm.

BMS intercooler:

Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source

Looking at the BMS intercooler there are a few things that becomes apparent, the first thing is the non louvered nature of the BMS intercooler. This is likely due to the extremely tight spacing of the fins, but it looks like they have double stacked fins and staggered them to increase surface area in essence creating a compact louver. The BMS intercooler also has an extremely squared fin array (meaning better air flow vs. high density but “crushed together fins” of other “HD” fin intercoolers), that in conjunction with the lack of louvers means the BMS intercoolers has extremely stiff and strong fins (I did push on the fins to test rigidity and they would not budge unlike the stock intercooler which has extremely malleable fins) which should mean increased durability in the even it gets struck with debris. The BMS intercooler fins also have have a density of ~8 fins/cm* (if you do not count the stacked fins which is hard to see in this picture - it looks so much different in real life, with the double fin louvers it is in the 14 fin/cm range). But like previously stated, the benefit of this BMS intercooler fin array is that despite the density the fins are perfectly straight so it doesn’t impede air flow unlike other high density intercoolers out there. So BMS did a good job ensuring that these fins were all perfectly straight and thus the air flow is not impeded. Overall the BMS intercooler has an incredibly dense fin array with straight fins that do not impede air flow, and are extremely durable.

Note* I have compared this intercooler with other super expensive premium brand stepped core intercoolers and the BMS intercooler has a much higher fin density than those other brands. There is only one other intercooler brand with similar fin density, however what I noticed is their fin array is crushed together which doesn’t offer good air flow imo.


Bar and Plate design:


Credit: F87source

The BMS intercooler utilizes a bar and plate core design compared to the tube and fin design of the stock intercooler. The benefits of a bar and plate core is that it has a higher thermal capacity before heat soaking, but thermal recovery is slower. Overall it is a fairly typical style of core for the F series N55 engine, but the one improvement I could see is if BMS added more fins on the interior of the intercooler to further improve heat transfer, that would make this intercooler even better.


Overall Summary on thermal capabilities:

Overall the BMS intercooler should vastly outperform the stock intercooler in terms of thermal management due to the following improvements:
Increased surface area: This is because of the slightly longer core, the addition of the step, and the increased fin density with the double fin design.
Increased volume: It is thicker, and has the stepped portion
Higher mass: Due to its full aluminium bar and plate design, and metal end tanks.


Fitment on the m2:

In regards to the fitment on the m2 I would give it an 8/10, everything fits perfectly with the few exceptions that I will speak of in a bit. The mounting tabs that supports the intercooler and allows the screws to be bolted into the radiator mounting brackets fit and line up perfectly. The intercooler mounting rails (2 vertical metal tabs on the sides of the intercooler) that allow it to slot into the radiator mounting brackets also fit perfectly. When the intercooler is bolted in it also sits all the way up and fits without issue.

Now this is the the only 2 gripes I had with this intercooler:

1) The driver side radiator fan mounting tab does not fit, so I had to bend it backwards which was really easy to do and afterwards it cleared the radiator fan. This is not a huge issue because the passenger side tab still supports the radiator fan and prevents rattles, and intercoolers like the CSF don’t even have these tabs. The passenger side tab does fit without issue.


Credit: F87source

2) The second issue is that the stock driver side charge pipe (cold side) will not fit, it is about 2 mm short and thus the C-clips will not slide in and lock the pipe in. Again a small gripe but aftermarket charge pipes will solve this issue.


Here are some more images on m2 fitment:


Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source


Credit: F87source


Data on IAT’s:

To be updated more extensively once I drive my car with the new intercooler enough.

I always have MHD’s logging module running at all times when I drive my car, so I always have a record of iats. When I drive at high speeds I note the delta between the ambient temperature displayed on the dash and the iats shown by mhd, then I take a note when idling in stop and go traffic as well. After the drive I will screenshot the gauge and in the photo descriptions I will note the temperatures (ambient, iat during high speeds, and iat during idling) I observed. I will also take data logs whenever possible, so far I have hundreds of data snippets and multiple logs of both pulls and full drives of the stock intercooler, I am now in the process of collecting it for the BMS intercooler.

However here is what I see so far:

1) Stock intercooler:
a) To be updated

2) BMS intercooler (to be updated with more details):

a) When driving at high speed even on 33C ambient temperature days I notice iat’s are only 9C higher than ambient which is insanely good. This delta decreases to around 5C on colder days with ambients of 10C - 15C.

b) On sub 30C days I notice IAT’s are sub 50C even in bumper to bumper traffic, while on 33C days I notice IAT’s are only reach 50C max. On cooler days of 10C - 15C iat’s in bumper to bumper traffic are in the low 20C range (this can change based on if the fan is on).

c) After a long drive and with the car heat soaking in the sun on a hot 33C day the intercooler temperatures will heat soak to a high 58C - 60C temperature range (normal even on the stock intercooler). But as soon as the car starts (even sitting idling) the radiator fan and air flow through the intercooler is capable of dropping those iats to 48C - 50C. When ambient temperatures are lower the temperatures are also correspondingly lower.

Overall from what I am seeing in every single instance the BMS intercooler has lower iats and significantly better thermal management compared to the stock intercooler.


Summary:

Overall the BMS intercooler is a very nice upgrade for the car and it is quite affordable. It keeps IAT’s alot lower than the stock intercooler and should be a necessary upgrade for anyone tuning these cars as IAT’s can get out of control with the stock intercooler, and if you are using poor gas that can cause knocking which is bad for the engine if prolonged. This intercooler also has a very nice fin pack compared to intercoolers much more expensive and build quality is impeccable. The only few things I would ask BMS to improve is: the radiator fan mounting tab positioning so it fits the m2 without modification, the driver side charge pipe connection so it is a bit longer so it will fit the stock charge pipe, and add more fins to the bar and plate internals to improve heat transfer. Otherwise I really like this intercooler, and would recommend it to anyone.

[F87source]

Reserved for future posts.

[M Fifty]

So basically you're advertising it - yes?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M Fifty

So basically you're advertising it - yes?

I'm doing a review on it, I didn't get it for free and I'm not getting paid so no it's not advertising. I'm also not obligated to say anything nice. If I was advertising it I would not have mentioned the 2 flaws.


Do I like this intercooler? Yes. imo for the price nothing in the stepped core range holds up. When I make more power I may have to switch to to a race core version from either bms or someone else idk.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Thank you for the review

[XutvJet]

IMO, the two issues identified are inexcusable. It always astounds me that aftermarket companies rarely make parts that can fit right. Not being able to connect to the OEM charge pipe and having the radiator fan support tabs off is not acceptable.

If the IC is being sold as a direct replacement with no modifications necessary, then it should be.

BMS isn't alone in this and is another instance of you get what you pay for. Sadly, hardly anyone will complain so BMS will likely not remedy the issue and with the lack of reporting, vendors will assume there aren't problems and will say so on the forums. Then more people will buy the part and assume theirs was the odd ball one that didn't fit when it turns out none of them really fit right.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

IMO, the two issues identified are inexcusable. It always astounds me that aftermarket companies rarely make parts that can fit right. Not being able to connect to the OEM charge pipe and having the radiator fan support tabs off is not acceptable.

If the IC is being sold as a direct replacement with no modifications necessary, then it should be.

BMS isn't alone in this and is another instance of you get what you pay for. Sadly, hardly anyone will complain so BMS will likely not remedy the issue and with the lack of reporting, vendors will assume there aren't problems and will say so on the forums. Then more people will buy the part and assume theirs was the odd ball one that didn't fit when it turns out none of them really fit right.

There are different fan shrouds available, one made unt 2018 and one made until today. That could be a reason for the incompatiblity of the fan shroud clips.


For the charge pipe connector I think if I took off the grommet near the top of the charge pipe that holds the factory charge pipe in, the extra 1 mm of slack I needed would've been present.

I've talked to bms about this issue and we will see what they do. But I've seen it fit the F30 without issue, but like I said the 2 versions if the radiator fan makes it weird. Maybe they can redesign their tabs idk.


The core alone is what makes the sacrifice worth it. It is still better than any premium 5" stepped core intercooler you can buy. I've been looking at standard 5" stepped intercoolers since 2014 when I had an m235i and I have seen alot of intercoolers since then. Most "premium" brand has terrible fin density and that translates to just better than stock but nothing remarkable. This includes Wagner imo, and since most stepped core intercooler are their clones (I've seen some clones that are damn near the same asides from the badging and apparently they're made in the same factory) the performance is almost the exact same, as shown by data logs. So it's still better than paying nearly double or even more for the top spec premium models like Wagner to get perfect fit only to get lesser performance.


Then VRSF broke the mould with their HD fin pack finally showing better performance than all those generic stepped core intercoolers, and bms further refined those HD fins to be squared providing better air flow. So yes there are bugs with the bms intercooler but the core imo makes up for it.





But I agree with you the charge pipe connector should've been perfect. The tab I really don't care because some race spec intercoolers don't even have them, and the bms intercooler fits on F30s without issue so it might be an m2 thing.

[MTWO]

Thank you for the review. Looks like a nice unit. I’m waiting on the intercooler that pro tuning freaks announced a while back. I just emailed them and they mentioned they might finally be getting them in next month. Delays apparently due to covid like everywhere else. I waited on my downpipe and exhaust from another company forever due to covid related delays too.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by MTWO

Thank you for the review. Looks like a nice unit. I’m waiting on the intercooler that pro tuning freaks announced a while back. I just emailed them and they mentioned they might finally be getting them in next month. Delays apparently due to covid like everywhere else. I waited on my downpipe and exhaust from another company forever due to covid related delays too.

No problem!

Yeah delays suck, covid really has messed up the global supply chain badly. Hopefully everything gets resolved soon.

[Dasnub]

Would be great if you could get some actual logs of 3rd gear pulls. The real data value is seeing what happens when the car is pushed at WOT.

One thing I’d note is that 7 fins/cm is not a bad fin density for the stock IC- that’s really not its flaw so much as it’s teeny tiny size. A lot of really nice aftermarket ICs run at that sort of fin density, but they are larger and usually bar and plate.

[donkey]

It's been a while since you posted this, how has it been holding up?

Do you regret not going for a larger 6" or 7" intercooler for stage 2, or do you think that modifying the brace on the M2 isn't worth the hassle?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by donkey

It's been a while since you posted this, how has it been holding up?

Do you regret not going for a larger 6" or 7" intercooler for stage 2, or do you think that modifying the brace on the M2 isn't worth the hassle?

It's been holding up absolutely well, in fact it's still as flawless as if it were new. The bms fin pack is really stiff compared to the factory intercooler which was so soft you could bent it with your fingers. As a result there are no signs of bent fins or rock damage. Temps are still good and the matte silver coating hasn't flaked.

Nope zero regret not going bigger. I'd rather no obstruct the radiator and push even more hot air through it since the n55's radiator is already undersized. If iats become an issue I'm adding water injection. I also don't like having a massive intercooler up front because it just further messes up weight balance.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

It's been holding up absolutely well, in fact it's still as flawless as if it were new. The bms fin pack is really stiff compared to the factory intercooler which was so soft you could bent it with your fingers. As a result there are no signs of bent fins or rock damage. Temps are still good and the matte silver coating hasn't flaked.

Nope zero regret not going bigger. I'd rather no obstruct the radiator and push even more hot air through it since the n55's radiator is already undersized. If iats become an issue I'm adding water injection. I also don't like having a massive intercooler up front because it just further messes up weight balance.

Look man, we all have our opinions - but this stuff is absolute...stretching at best.

A race intercooler is 3 inches taller than a standard step intercooler. No one is running into coolant issues because of it. And water injection is expensive, weighs more, is complicated (it's not plug and play)- and potentially dangerous.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1622247

Buy the intercooler you need for your application - there is ZERO advantage for going smaller - even if you do add WMI later.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Look man, we all have our opinions - but this stuff is absolute...stretching at best.

A race intercooler is 3 inches taller than a standard step intercooler. No one is running into coolant issues because of it. And water injection is expensive, weighs more, is complicated (it's not plug and play)- and potentially dangerous.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1622247

Buy the intercooler you need for your application - there is ZERO advantage for going smaller - even if you do add WMI later.

Stretching it? It's pure physics. It's impossible for something to have no impact on the radiator when it's covering it, and putting more hot air through it. When you put more things in front of the radiator air flow decreases, and you're pushing more hot air through the radiator thereby decreasing the airs ability to cool - You simply can't cool as well with hot air and that's undeniable physics. There literally no way having more heat exchanging occuring infront of the radiator will not impact the radiator negatively.

You keep saying no one is running into coolant issues, and I have no idea how you can even say that. I've been seeing the same trend every time, if you get an m2 making more power than stock and the driver is fast enough then coolant temps are always the thing hitting limp mode temps first. Oil temps are high, but they still aren't the cause of the limp mode. Even on dedicated race cars like tyspeed's m2 with a massive oil cooler, it was coolant temps that couldn't be controlled despite adding dual aux radiators and a brushless pump. It was only when methanol injection and sprayers was added did the temps stay under control.

You literally have no proof that the intercooler has no impact, because there hasn't been any consistent back to back testing with and without an intercooler taller than 5" on a car making enough power to cause an issue. There's just been logs all over the place with different mods running at different track temps etc. but there has been a well established trend of coolant temps going out of control and way beyond the 117C limp mode temp, but not of oil spiking out of control to the same delta above 132C. You just have a crazy bias towards iats, and literally are on every intercooler thread.



Sure water injection is expensive if you want the best kit, but you'll get way more advantages with it than with an intercooler. If you add ice cubes you potentially can get sub ambient iats consistently. You get steam cleaning of the intake valves and you suppress hot spots in the cylinder leading to less knock. If you run distilled water and don't tune more aggressively then there will not be a safety issue even if your kit shuts off half way through a pull. The car will just see the higher iats and compensate accordingly.

The meth kit will add weight to the rear of the car which is easily compensated for via a light weight batter or a rear seat delete. This keeps weight balance in check. Adding a monster to the front of the car while adding more weight in the form of oil cooler, radiator, aux radiator, water pump etc. Is incredibly difficult if not impossible to compensate for. Now youre just throwing off weight balance.

I would only buy a bigger intercooler if iats are seriously struggling and I didn't want to add water injection and you're not facing any cooling issues. Because coolant temperature is something that can't be easily resolved and will kill an engine. High iats are not a major issue if you have sufficient octane, so obsessing over getting the lowest iat is senseless if you're facing a bigger problem in coolant temps. The only time I see having a massive intercooler be a major advantage is auto x, where speeds are generally pretty low and cooling is inefficient so you want your intercooler to have a large thermal mass to absorb the heat as you can't shed it easily without the high speed air flow. Auto x runs are also short enough coolant and oil temps won't get a chance to be an issue.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

Stretching it? It's pure physics. It's impossible for something to have no impact on the radiator when it's covering it, and putting more hot air through it. When you put more things in front of the radiator air flow decreases, and you're pushing more hot air through the radiator thereby decreasing the airs ability to cool - You simply can't cool as well with hot air and that's undeniable physics. There literally no way having more heat exchanging occuring infront of the radiator will not impact the radiator negatively.

I know physics and I'm saying 3 extra inches in frontal area (which isn't even directly in the flow path regardless) has a negligible impact on frontal radiator cooling.

Originally Posted by F87source

You keep saying no one is running into coolant issues, and I have no idea how you can even say that. I've been seeing the same trend every time, if you get an m2 making more power than stock and the driver is fast enough then coolant temps are always the thing hitting limp mode temps first. Oil temps are high, but they still aren't the cause of the limp mode. Even on dedicated race cars like tyspeed's m2 with a massive oil cooler, it was coolant temps that couldn't be controlled despite adding dual aux radiators and a brushless pump. It was only when methanol injection and sprayers was added did the temps stay under control.

Not to be rude, but you were wrong on the cause then and you're still wrong. It was never a coolant issue (since the coolant is being used to add capacity to the oil cooler) it was a oil coolant issue...in addition to a CSF makes crappy parts. The CSF radiator caused increased temps on the coolant side, and their oil cooler did nothing - and after the suggestion to change both - temperatures came back into range.


I KNOW this isn't an issue because I've read the threads, and reviewed the logs myself.

Example:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...5&postcount=38

Example:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=496

Also I look everywhere for builds - no complaints about coolant here, even 104F temps here:
https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show...t#post26409246

Originally Posted by F87source

You literally have no proof that the intercooler has no impact, because there hasn't been any consistent back to back testing with and without an intercooler taller than 5" on a car making enough power to cause an issue. There's just been logs all over the place with different mods running at different track temps etc. but there has been a well established trend of coolant temps going out of control and way beyond the 117C limp mode temp, but not of oil spiking out of control to the same delta above 132C. You just have a crazy bias towards iats, and literally are on every intercooler thread."

First, the 5" vs 6.5" etc is nothing about the intercooler's height and everything to do with their depth. The VRSF 5" is 3" shorter than the Race - I've had both (Competition and Race)

What I haven't seen is anyone, ever, point out that an intercooler change has increased oil/coolant temps. What I have seen is a clear issue of the oil getting too hot and the coolant system working overtime to cool it down.

Example:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1928125

Example:

Originally Posted by ZM2

Second session: https://bootmod3.net/log?id=64e7740bd10b430714656de8

Dry session with new PB at NJMP Thunderbolt (1:29.4). Ambient still not too hot, check out how close oil & coolant temps are together. Have never seen that before, oil usually skyrockets and then coolant.

Coolant still getting above 250F tho, and power was being pulled. The car didn’t go into meltdown tho and cooled off quickly. Altho, prob still need more coolant temp reduction for hot track days.

Overall, much better, tho.

we know that cooling the oil down leads to the coolant staying within range

Example:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=421

Originally Posted by F87source

Sure water injection is expensive if you want the best kit, but you'll get way more advantages with it than with an intercooler. If you add ice cubes you potentially can get sub ambient iats consistently. You get steam cleaning of the intake valves and you suppress hot spots in the cylinder leading to less knock. If you run distilled water and don't tune more aggressively then there will not be a safety issue even if your kit shuts off half way through a pull. The car will just see the higher iats and compensate accordingly.

And it still has the potential to grenade the motor and without a properly sized intercooler, you're STILL not getting near where a race intercooler can be

Example:
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=163

https://www.wunderground.com/history.../date/2020-3-2

(FBO CTS intercooler with E30 AND WMI - 10F to 15F over ambient in ONE gear)

Originally Posted by F87source

The meth kit will add weight to the rear of the car which is easily compensated for via a light weight batter or a rear seat delete. This keeps weight balance in check. Adding a monster to the front of the car while adding more weight in the form of oil cooler, radiator, aux radiator, water pump etc. Is incredibly difficult if not impossible to compensate for. Now you're just throwing off weight balance.

Feel is subjective, but I don't know anyone who got slower with better cooling.

Originally Posted by F87source

I would only buy a bigger intercooler if iats are seriously struggling and I didn't want to add water injection and you're not facing any cooling issues. Because coolant temperature is something that can't be easily resolved and will kill an engine. High iats are not a major issue if you have sufficient octane, so obsessing over getting the lowest iat is senseless if you're facing a bigger problem in coolant temps. The only time I see having a massive intercooler be a major advantage is auto x, where speeds are generally pretty low and cooling is inefficient so you want your intercooler to have a large thermal mass to absorb the heat as you can't shed it easily without the high speed air flow. Auto x runs are also short enough coolant and oil temps won't get a chance to be an issue.

A massive intercooler is literally 10lbs more than another intercooler (within 5lbs of this forums most popular intercooler - the CSF) and keeps the car consistent pull after pull - AND it's inexpensive, safe and effective.

All you're doing is saying "yeah, this is easier, better and less costly to add a bigger intercooler- but subjectively it's not good because I believe (without evidence) that it could cause cooling issues. "

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I know physics and I'm saying 3 extra inches in frontal area (which isn't even directly in the flow path regardless) has a negligible impact on frontal radiator cooling.



Not to be rude, but you were wrong on the cause then and you're still wrong. It was never a coolant issue (since the coolant is being used to add capacity to the oil cooler) it was a oil coolant issue...in addition to a CSF makes crappy parts. The CSF radiator caused increased temps on the coolant side, and their oil cooler did nothing - and after the suggestion to change both - temperatures came back into range.


I KNOW this isn't an issue because I've read the threads, and reviewed the logs myself.

Example:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...5&postcount=38

Example:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=496

Also I look everywhere for builds - no complaints about coolant here, even 104F temps here:
https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show...t#post26409246




First, the 5" vs 6.5" etc is nothing about the intercooler's height and everything to do with their depth. The VRSF 5" is 3" shorter than the Race - I've had both (Competition and Race)

What I haven't seen is anyone, ever, point out that an intercooler change has increased oil/coolant temps. What I have seen is a clear issue of the oil getting too hot and the coolant system working overtime to cool it down.

Example:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1928125

Example:



we know that cooling the oil down leads to the coolant staying within range

Example:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=421



And it still has the potential to grenade the motor and without a properly sized intercooler, you're STILL not getting near where a race intercooler can be

Example:
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=163

https://www.wunderground.com/history.../date/2020-3-2

(FBO CTS intercooler with E30 AND WMI - 10F to 15F over ambient in ONE gear)



Feel is subjective, but I don't know anyone who got slower with better cooling.



A massive intercooler is literally 10lbs more than another intercooler (within 5lbs of this forums most popular intercooler - the CSF) and keeps the car consistent pull after pull - AND it's inexpensive, safe and effective.

All you're doing is saying "yeah, this is easier, better and less costly to add a bigger intercooler- but subjectively it's not good because I believe (without evidence) that it could cause cooling issues. "

Like I said before, these cars proveably suffer from high coolant temps. Adding more air flow obstruction in front of the radiator which in turn lowers air speed and decrease laminar flow in addition to heating up said air will not help cooling. That's just physics - you simply can't cool something efficiently with hot turbulent air.


Easier and better means nothing when you have to factor in more important things like coolant temps. If you're doing auto x or drag racing or are not suffering from coolant temps then by all means go with a massive core. But the same goes for if you're not suffering from excessive iats, then why bother spending more money for a race core and having to delete your front brace and loose additional chassis rigidity.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I know physics and I'm saying 3 extra inches in frontal area (which isn't even directly in the flow path regardless) has a negligible impact on frontal radiator cooling.



Not to be rude, but you were wrong on the cause then and you're still wrong. It was never a coolant issue (since the coolant is being used to add capacity to the oil cooler) it was a oil coolant issue...in addition to a CSF makes crappy parts. The CSF radiator caused increased temps on the coolant side, and their oil cooler did nothing - and after the suggestion to change both - temperatures came back into range.


I KNOW this isn't an issue because I've read the threads, and reviewed the logs myself.

Example:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...5&postcount=38

Example:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=496

Also I look everywhere for builds - no complaints about coolant here, even 104F temps here:
https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show...t#post26409246




First, the 5" vs 6.5" etc is nothing about the intercooler's height and everything to do with their depth. The VRSF 5" is 3" shorter than the Race - I've had both (Competition and Race)

What I haven't seen is anyone, ever, point out that an intercooler change has increased oil/coolant temps. What I have seen is a clear issue of the oil getting too hot and the coolant system working overtime to cool it down.

Example:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1928125

Example:



we know that cooling the oil down leads to the coolant staying within range

Example:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=421



And it still has the potential to grenade the motor and without a properly sized intercooler, you're STILL not getting near where a race intercooler can be

Example:
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=163

https://www.wunderground.com/history.../date/2020-3-2

(FBO CTS intercooler with E30 AND WMI - 10F to 15F over ambient in ONE gear)



Feel is subjective, but I don't know anyone who got slower with better cooling.



A massive intercooler is literally 10lbs more than another intercooler (within 5lbs of this forums most popular intercooler - the CSF) and keeps the car consistent pull after pull - AND it's inexpensive, safe and effective.

All you're doing is saying "yeah, this is easier, better and less costly to add a bigger intercooler- but subjectively it's not good because I believe (without evidence) that it could cause cooling issues. "

The coolant issue is not solved.

In the example you gave I was running less power than previous, ambient was only 75F, and I was on a shorter track with lower top speeds. All that, and I was still hitting 253F coolant and the car was pulling power.

The car will likely still overheat on hot summer days on longer tracks. We will see next summer how much and what next steps will be.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I know physics and I'm saying 3 extra inches in frontal area (which isn't even directly in the flow path regardless) has a negligible impact on frontal radiator cooling.



Not to be rude, but you were wrong on the cause then and you're still wrong. It was never a coolant issue (since the coolant is being used to add capacity to the oil cooler) it was a oil coolant issue...in addition to a CSF makes crappy parts. The CSF radiator caused increased temps on the coolant side, and their oil cooler did nothing - and after the suggestion to change both - temperatures came back into range.


I KNOW this isn't an issue because I've read the threads, and reviewed the logs myself.

Example:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...5&postcount=38

Example:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=496

Also I look everywhere for builds - no complaints about coolant here, even 104F temps here:
https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show...t#post26409246




First, the 5" vs 6.5" etc is nothing about the intercooler's height and everything to do with their depth. The VRSF 5" is 3" shorter than the Race - I've had both (Competition and Race)

What I haven't seen is anyone, ever, point out that an intercooler change has increased oil/coolant temps. What I have seen is a clear issue of the oil getting too hot and the coolant system working overtime to cool it down.

Example:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1928125

Example:



we know that cooling the oil down leads to the coolant staying within range

Example:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=421



And it still has the potential to grenade the motor and without a properly sized intercooler, you're STILL not getting near where a race intercooler can be

Example:
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=163

https://www.wunderground.com/history.../date/2020-3-2

(FBO CTS intercooler with E30 AND WMI - 10F to 15F over ambient in ONE gear)



Feel is subjective, but I don't know anyone who got slower with better cooling.



A massive intercooler is literally 10lbs more than another intercooler (within 5lbs of this forums most popular intercooler - the CSF) and keeps the car consistent pull after pull - AND it's inexpensive, safe and effective.

All you're doing is saying "yeah, this is easier, better and less costly to add a bigger intercooler- but subjectively it's not good because I believe (without evidence) that it could cause cooling issues. "

3 extra inches on a signifcantly undersized radiator is still a large impact, especially since this region requires the fan to help pull air through, and now you're pulling hot air through. It would be negligible if cooling was not an issue and yet it is.


And yet you've seem to have read the logs all wrong because as zm2 pointed out he is still over heating...


Here's another fast driver with a full d088 cooling suite installed: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1617861

What you'll notice is oil temps are sub limp mode and coolant is still hitting above 117C which is where the m2 starts pulling power. So it's funny how you claim this issue doesn't exist - despite zm2, og shark, and tyspeed all having issues and having serious cooling upgrades.



WMI is risky without the proper kit and tune because you are spraying fuel - which can go hyper lean if your kit sprays while the injectors cut off during a misfire etc. But this is not possible when spraying just water because water is not a fuel source. You also don't realize intercoolers heat soak on track, especially in the tight corners. You keep comparing street logs for single pulls which is completely irrelevant on track where you will not see those near ambient iats as your intercooler heat soaks.

[donkey]

Sorry this thread got kind of derailed but it was an interesting read.

I think I'll go with this intercooler (or one like it) and then just keep an eye on logs. Worst case I sell it and get a different one

[F87source]

Originally Posted by donkey

Sorry this thread got kind of derailed but it was an interesting read.

I think I'll go with this intercooler (or one like it) and then just keep an eye on logs. Worst case I sell it and get a different one

No worries, I don't mind off topic discussions. It's still about intercoolers though so its fine.


Yeah buy whatever you'd like, if it doesn't pan out you could always resell it since it doesn't really drop in value too badly. Just make sure it has a high fin density like the BMS intercooler.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ZM2

The coolant issue is not solved.

In the example you gave I was running less power than previous, ambient was only 75F, and I was on a shorter track with lower top speeds. All that, and I was still hitting 253F coolant and the car was pulling power.

Are you sure?

Because I'm not:
https://bootmod3.net/log?id=64e7740bd10b430714656de8
(your log)

Minute marker 2:72 - 421lbf actual rated torque at 207F coolant (20psi/11* timing)
Minute marker 5:748 - 419lbf actual rated torque at 252F coolant (20psi/10.5* timing)

Compared to your previous run at that same track in 45F weather:

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

WOW - this is an improvement:


Ambient
48F vs 75-77F

Coolant
233F vs 251F

Oil
251F vs 253F

Maximum Speed
135mph vs 141mph

Yeah - beating your PB, trapping 6MPH faster and keeping the cooling system at the same temps in 30F cooler weather. This is also with 2 mods done to the oil side of the car - not the coolant.

Originally Posted by ZM2

The car will likely still overheat on hot summer days on longer tracks. We will see next summer how much and what next steps will be.

More oil cooling will be needed, a radiator is doing jack crap and that E39 coolant pump is likely doing nothing to help. More than likely BMW probably deleted the second pump to save on pumping losses and to increase flow. Maybe a M235i would need it because it's meant to be a daily driver in stop and go traffic with high amounts of time idling - but the M2 was more track focused and that was probably seen as unnecessary.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

More oil cooling will be needed, a radiator is doing jack crap and that E39 coolant pump is likely doing nothing to help. More than likely BMW probably deleted the second pump to save on pumping losses and to increase flow. Maybe a M235i would need it because it's meant to be a daily driver in stop and go traffic with high amounts of time idling - but the M2 was more track focused and that was probably seen as unnecessary.

Tyspeed debunked that with IR thermometer measurements showing the aux radiator without the pump was not doing anything and barely even hot as not enough coolant made it there...