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      07-31-2019, 08:25 PM   #23
Louzy77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Providing cooling, fueling and octane at the same time, WMI is so powerful that STG1 turbo quickly becomes bottleneck, so you end up installing turbo twice.

If you install WMI on stock turbo, better try ethanol and/or octane booster first as they work just as well if not better and they're free.
which larger turbo set up has the least inherent lag at lower rpm's?
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      07-31-2019, 10:35 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Piggyback won't get M2 to 400whp even with STG1 turbo unless supported by meth, assuming 330-340 stock. From what I've seen, on good pump gas, at maximum DinanSTG4 + DP nets you 50whp.

The issue is in the M2 stock calibration which dumps too much fuel up top, trading power for a cooler in-cylinder temp so it can last WOT for a little longer. And piggyback can do very little about the AFR. There're many lesser N55s (even the PWGs), when flashed, making more power with less boost than M2 stock. The leaner AFR is one key to that. Among all N55s, the M235i works with Piggyback the best thanks to its good AFR setting from the factory. M235i is fact closer than M2 to obtaining 400whp from Dinan STG4 PKG.
Many times we hear that piggyback and / or Dinan doesn't result in 400whp, and whilst I believe it, it's nice to have some rationale as to why; thanks for that insight SeanWRT!
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If you install WMI on stock turbo, better try ethanol and/or octane booster first as they work just as well if not better and they're free.
I'm not disagreeing with you SeanWRT, and I'm sure you've seen my Aquamist install thread, but I do think there are times when WMI makes sense with a stock or stage 1 turbo.

In CA we've got high ambients, and shit, low octane fuel. As you know, around a year ago I tried adding E85 to my fuel to increase octane, and though it worked, I was right on the limit of my HPFP in the summer, just to run the 91 Octane Stage 2 OTS BM3 map (there was no ACN map at the time).

My options to improve my situation, as far as I could see it, were:
  1. Upgrade HPFP to use more E85 (E85 is available to me, but inconvenient)
  2. Upgrade turbo to reduce reliance on octane by lowering IATs
  3. MMT Based Octane Booster
  4. WMI
WMI is the cheapest of the bolt on options, and provides octane, fueling and cooling.

MMT Based Octane Booster leaves orange deposits everywhere, and that doesn't make me feel comfortable, even though there are a number of people who've used it over the long term. The amount of octane booster required in CA is also not small, making it actually fairly expensive.

I'm still at the start of the tuning process, but I've been running it for just over a tank so far, and the system has never missed a beat. I'm running the 91 Octane OTS map and not seeing any issues with my limited log taking, and seeing IATs below ambient!

It's certainly an additional think to take care of, and I'm keen to make sure I have a fail-safe system in place if and when I specifically tune for WMI. If I was going to a track day, I wouldn't run a map that relied on WMI, but I'd probably still run it for cooling and octane overhead.

One question I do have for you SeanWRT, is from your statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Providing cooling, fueling and octane at the same time, WMI is so powerful that STG1 turbo quickly becomes bottleneck, so you end up installing turbo twice.
Surely this is only if you're trying to really get everything out of your N55. The Stage 1 turbo may become the bottleneck, but something is always the bottleneck. What sort of whp figure would you expect to achieve with FBO + STG2 turbo + Flash + WMI? Based on the examples you've given about, maybe ~430whp?
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      07-31-2019, 10:37 PM   #25
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Oh, and I should have said... At some point I may upgrade my turbo, but am seriously concerned about lag. I'd really like to test drive a manual Pure S2 to get a sense of how it feels before I bit the bullet on this.

For that reason alone, I'm considering a Stage 1 turbo. They're cheaper, and maybe ~430whp is enough...
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      08-02-2019, 01:47 AM   #26
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Nezil If I had to improve octane, I'd do Ethanol(if possible)/HPFP over WMI. To me, it's much more reliable and cleaner without additional fuel injection and a continually compensating DME, and maintenance free.

There seems to be an obsession of IAT control when everyone starts to look at log. In the end, it doesn't really matter 130 or 150 of IAT, if octane holds up. And the 1000+F In-cylinder temp only gets cooler when ignition is high (greater exhaust pressure so it gets out more quickly). Hence the octane being the key.

For sure higher IAT with a boost cap results in lower VE, but 20F or so difference isn't much. And you're not really pursing maximum power when hot. Also, when IAT is not high enough to hit the boost ceiling, VE will always be the maximum.

To your concern, not that numbers matter that much, but 430whp is a bit difficult with STG1, however with STG2, you'd most likely end up pushing a lot more than that. Anyway it's worth doing even just or fun.
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      08-03-2019, 12:51 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Nezil If I had to improve octane, I'd do Ethanol(if possible)/HPFP over WMI. To me, it's much more reliable and cleaner without additional fuel injection and a continually compensating DME, and maintenance free.
Of course I understand your opinion and respect it a lot. I tried running more Ethanol and could never get to any point better than reliably running 91 OTS before running out of HPFP, and that was in the summer.

I really envy those that can run the E30 map, which is based on 93 + E85 to get to E30, and therefore better than I could ever get with my pump gas.

When I was running an Ethanol blend, it was doable, but I ended up driving around with a gallon of E85 in the trunk most of the time in case I needed to fill up, which was annoying and potentially dangerous.

I'm carrying 500ml of pre mixed 50:50 water:methanol now in case I run out, but it's been nearly two thanks of street driving and the low fluid light hasn't come in yet. 50:50 water:methanol is less flammable as well.
Quote:
There seems to be an obsession of IAT control when everyone starts to look at log.
In my case, I'm doing WMI primarily for octane and fueling, IAT reduction is nice, but wasn't the primary reason by any means.
Quote:
To your concern, not that numbers matter that much, but 430whp is a bit difficult with STG1, however with STG2, you'd most likely end up pushing a lot more than that.
Thanks for that... Send like STG2 is quite a bit of an improvement, lag aside, over STG1. I trust your opinion on this because I know you have first hand experience of both.
Quote:
Anyway it's worth doing even just for fun.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I certainly don't need a STG2, turbo, but as with the WMI, it would be a fun project for sure.

Do you think is need to upgrade my HPFP as well if I go STG2 and already have WMI? Things start to get expensive at that point!
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      08-03-2019, 09:24 AM   #28
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From SeanWRT's post..."Piggyback won't get M2 to 400whp even with STG1 turbo unless supported by meth, assuming 330-340 stock. From what I've seen, on good pump gas, at maximum Dinan STG4 + DP nets you 50whp.

I am poised to install the Dinan "Big" Stage 1 Turbo and upgrade to their Stage 4 Dinantronics. I suspect that will give me the power upgrade I am hoping for; keeping it smooth for daily driving, and allowing for just a little bit more power for weekend canyons and the occasional track day.
My questions are:
1) why are the numbers from Dinan so far off. They claim a bump of 101 bhp and 86 ft-lb from stock...it seems with a 200 or 300 cell sport cat those numbers should be obtainable even with 91 octane?....or are they just fabricating those numbers on their favorite dyno?
2) If later I wanted to try for a wee bit more power how hard (and expensive) would it be to swap to a Bootmod3?
Being a newbie what are the differences/ pro v con between a flash vs piggyback (I assume the Dinantronics is considered a piggyback?), can anyone direct me to a good post explaining the differences?
Appreciate your experience and sage wisdom...all you guys especially SeanWRT, clearly you have been working on some fun and interesting experiments!!!

PS Nezil, let's meet over at Alice's Restaurant again sometime!!!....have to get another squadron together again soon!!!
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      08-03-2019, 09:58 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
Of course I understand your opinion and respect it a lot. I tried running more Ethanol and could never get to any point better than reliably running 91 OTS before running out of HPFP, and that was in the summer.

I really envy those that can run the E30 map, which is based on 93 + E85 to get to E30, and therefore better than I could ever get with my pump gas.

When I was running an Ethanol blend, it was doable, but I ended up driving around with a gallon of E85 in the trunk most of the time in case I needed to fill up, which was annoying and potentially dangerous.

I'm carrying 500ml of pre mixed 50:50 water:methanol now in case I run out, but it's been nearly two thanks of street driving and the low fluid light hasn't come in yet. 50:50 water:methanol is less flammable as well.

In my case, I'm doing WMI primarily for octane and fueling, IAT reduction is nice, but wasn't the primary reason by any means.

Thanks for that... Send like STG2 is quite a bit of an improvement, lag aside, over STG1. I trust your opinion on this because I know you have first hand experience of both.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I certainly don't need a STG2, turbo, but as with the WMI, it would be a fun project for sure.

Do you think is need to upgrade my HPFP as well if I go STG2 and already have WMI? Things start to get expensive at that point!
Any idea what the additional fueling benefit is for WMI vs ethanol?

All things being equal, does 93 octane + WMI & tune make more or less power than 93 octane + E85 (to get E25-E30) and tune?

And, would WMI add enough additional fueling to run E30 all the time to not crash the HPFP, even in cooler weather?

Last edited by ZM2; 08-03-2019 at 01:32 PM..
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      08-14-2019, 08:09 AM   #30
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Objectively speaking, the reason you should upgrade the turbo is if you want to move the powerband higher in the RPM. I would highly suggest a stage 2 for this (a.k.a. compressor & turbine change) vs a stage 1 that is just compressor.


The S55 in the M2C is nice because it has dual HPFP so fueling is rarely, has a better fueling system and is closed deck but the twin turbo setup isn't the same as a larger stage 2 turbo and I personally consider it a con due to the small gain but greater complexity.

With a twin turbo setup they are able to get a wider powerband because smaller turbos have a wider efficiency curves allowing for a wider powerband and in the S55 they moved the powerband slightly higher in the rpm buuut it's still not the same as an N55 with a stage 2/3 turbo.


TLDR; Stage 2+/3 Turbo is worth it if you are looking to sacrifice low rpm torque for more torque at a higher rpm. More so than a S55.
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      08-17-2019, 12:04 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Any idea what the additional fueling benefit is for WMI vs ethanol?

All things being equal, does 93 octane + WMI & tune make more or less power than 93 octane + E85 (to get E25-E30) and tune?

And, would WMI add enough additional fueling to run E30 all the time to not crash the HPFP, even in cooler weather?
I'd like to see the answer to this question as well.👍
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