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      01-13-2019, 02:09 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by landapanda View Post
5 monster - consider going 265/35 and 285/35 on oem rims. This is as wide as you can go and can get re71r in this size. This is the setup I'll go for this summer.
Thanks man, I'd love to go that route! My issue is that it's tough in Germany to make ANY kind of mod. My registration states the tire size right on it (factory 245/265 setup) and a shop I took it too already told me that's the only thing they are allowed to put on it.

So I'd love to go wider, but I'd be happy with 255/275 if I can even pull it off.

P.S. For street dudty I wouldn't care, but 265 is right on the edge of what the tire mfg recommends. I'd be worried about sidewall rollover to be honest. I've seen the shoulder wear on my stock 255s and 275s on wider rims with my previous track car. They are not joking.
The acceptable rim width comes directly from the manufacturer. Most mfrs will state it's ok to go up to the sizes I mentioned in OEM rims.

Regarding your dilemma, I didn't realize German rules are that strict. I tracked the oem Contis and had plenty of fun on those. Wider tires will lead to faster time, but in the end who cares if you shave a second off your PB. You can probably do that by working with a good instructor, focusing on your brake markers, smooth cornering and a proper exit line!
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      01-13-2019, 02:21 PM   #46
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255/275 or 255/285 is they way to go for the track on stock rims, if they’ll let you do it in Germany.

265/35 on the stock 9” rim doesn’t net hardly anymore contact patch and introduces worse steering response and rollover on track. Really need a 9.5” rim for a 265 on track.

Plus, a new 265 is taller and will rub the fender liner under severe compression, which you’ll find on track.
This is exactly what I'm afraid of with going over mfg suggested width. If I were keeping the car I'd just shell out for wider rims, but I don't plan to be here more than 3 years. So I'm a slave to stock rims. But I'd be happy with 255/275 setup with track pads.

When I get back to the States I know exactly what car I want. It will be a Corvette Grand Sport. It comes with serious aero and 275/325 tires from the factory. Because Racecar!
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      01-13-2019, 02:29 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
This is exactly what I'm afraid of with going over mfg suggested width. If I were keeping the car I'd just shell out for wider rims, but I don't plan to be here more than 3 years. So I'm a slave to stock rims. But I'd be happy with 255/275 setup with track pads.

When I get back to the States I know exactly what car I want. It will be a Corvette Grand Sport. It comes with serious aero and 275/325 tires from the factory. Because Racecar!
Hey, 255/285 RE-71R on OEM rims are faster than most everybody's track wheels and tires, so don't sweat it.

Those GS's are fast. I did a 20min session with my Stage 4 Dinan M2 and a buddy with a GS. We were neck and neck the whole time, and neither could pass each other.

It was interesting to see where each car was faster. I'd catch up under braking (probably the driver), he'd pull a tiny bit to midcorner (lighter car), I'd gain on corner exit (more torque), and we would be even down the straight until about 90mph where his more efficienct aero and slight hp advantage would kick in and he would start to walk away.

Was one of the most fun on track sessions I've ever had! The best part is I could put all my tires in my car & drive home w/o a trailer.
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      01-13-2019, 02:29 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by landapanda View Post
The acceptable rim width comes directly from the manufacturer. Most mfrs will state it's ok to go up to the sizes I mentioned in OEM rims.

Regarding your dilemma, I didn't realize German rules are that strict. I tracked the oem Contis and had plenty of fun on those. Wider tires will lead to faster time, but in the end who cares if you shave a second off your PB. You can probably do that by working with a good instructor, focusing on your brake markers, smooth cornering and a proper exit line!
Ahhh, now you're teasing! I have a PB goal for Nurbergring Nordshleife BTG while I'm, here. 7:55 is the goal. I've tracked a Mustang GT for 5 years before this, and I know sidewall stiffness has a lot to do with driver confidence. And driver confidence has a lot to do with lap times. At some point tire width stops paying dividends on stock rims. I went wider with the Mustang thanks to wider rims, but I can't with the M2. I really think 255 will be my limit on the front.

But good point about driver mod. I was HPDE1 before in the Mustang, but the M2 is a different car. I definitely plan to have someone who knows what they are doing teach me the lines at Nordshleife and elsewhere before I attempt post worthy laps.
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      01-13-2019, 02:37 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Hey, 255/285 RE-71R on OEM rims are faster than most everybody's track wheels and tires, so don't sweat it.

Those GS's are fast. I did a 20min session with my Stage 4 Dinan M2 and a buddy with a GS. We were neck and neck the whole time, and neither could pass each other.

It was interesting to see where each car was faster. I'd catch up under braking (probably the driver), he'd pull a tiny bit to midcorner (lighter car), I'd gain on corner exit (more torque), and we would be even down the straight until about 90mph where his more efficienct aero and slight hp advantage would kick in and he would start to walk away.

Was one of the most fun on track sessions I've ever had!
Thank you for this! I will see if I can bribe someone to help me with this setup on the M2

I have some experience with the Vettes. Best bag for the buck at any track. Been my dream car for a while. When in Germany I will do like the Germans do. But when I'm back stateside I will have a GS. I've seen them walk on 911s at various tracks near Great Lakes. So now it's a Life Goal.
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      01-13-2019, 03:06 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Hey, 255/285 RE-71R on OEM rims are faster than most everybody's track wheels and tires, so don't sweat it.

Those GS's are fast. I did a 20min session with my Stage 4 Dinan M2 and a buddy with a GS. We were neck and neck the whole time, and neither could pass each other.

It was interesting to see where each car was faster. I'd catch up under braking (probably the driver), he'd pull a tiny bit to midcorner (lighter car), I'd gain on corner exit (more torque), and we would be even down the straight until about 90mph where his more efficienct aero and slight hp advantage would kick in and he would start to walk away.

Was one of the most fun on track sessions I've ever had! The best part is I could put all my tires in my car & drive home w/o a trailer.
You sound like a pretty experienced driver, and this alone is huge in terms of lap time. More than huge, actually. But I am curious, what is the TQ of a Dinan Stage 4 tuned M2?

The Vettes has 460tq from the factory, and I think this figure is actually underrated. Those 6.2L V8s are power houses.
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      01-13-2019, 03:32 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
You sound like a pretty experienced driver, and this alone is huge in terms of lap time. More than huge, actually. But I am curious, what is the TQ of a Dinan Stage 4 tuned M2?

The Vettes has 460tq from the factory, and I think this figure is actually underrated. Those 6.2L V8s are power houses.
Looks like you’re right, the Chevy’s torque is definitely better in the upper RPM’s:
https://www.chevrolet.com/corvette-life/engines
https://www.dinancars.com/product/d4...or-bmw-f87-m2/

I haven’t looked at American V8 performance in quite a while, and assumed torque was worse than a direct injection turbo motor. Looks like the Stage 4 wins down low, but not up top. Nice work, Chevy!

So, I guess I was just getting on the gas harder & quicker, and myself in a GS would smoke myself in a heavily mod’ed M2.

Altho, I’m running BM3 now, which is putting out 460hp/485ft-lbs on the BMW Sport Dials, so that’d be a more even match. And, the M2C guys running just BM3 Stage 1 are close to 500hp, but we can only get 295/305 max rubber in the back, so we’re more traction limited than the Vette.

No doubt the GS is track car to have! Altho, I can either throw wife/kid/dog or track tires in the car, so there’s that.

PS. We’re severely off topic! Hah.
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      01-13-2019, 08:35 PM   #52
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On my 17 M2 I'm running the following tire and wheel setups:

1. Winter = square Michelin PA4 snow tires 245/40-18.

2. Track = staggered Hankook RS4 245/40-18 front and 265/40-18 rear.

3. Summer = OEM = staggered 19" Michelin Pilot PS4s 245/35-19 front and 265/35-19 rear.
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The RS4s are great. Long lasting. Super stiff sidewall. Ok, but certainly not great in the rain. It is the best tire for me. It is relatively inexpensive and it certainly wears much better and longer than the RE71Rs.
Thanks Rich, good stuff. This setup sounds similar to what i'd like to do, though my preference would be to go slightly wider for track duty.

In my present situation I do not want to to buy/store additional rims (no garage, just 3 parking spots in front of the house) so I'm leaning towards 255/35-19 front ans 275/35-19 rear. This way I keep the factory understeer/oversteer characteristics by keeping the contact patch ratios the same, and it should fit on factory rims.
Sounds good. My goal in going with the staggered 18" setup was to:

1. Prevent rubbing issues since I don't plan on modifying camber or doing any other suspension mods.
2. Maintain the OEM 19" tire revolutions per mile since the OEM front and rear tire height is different. My 18" setup maintains an exact (or near exact) tire height compared to OEM 19's.
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      01-13-2019, 10:01 PM   #53
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Various tire specs by: Tire/size/section width/tread width/diameter/revs per mile

OEM PS4S
245-35-19/ 9.8/8.6/25.8/807
265-35-19/10.7/9.6/26.3/790

OEM Conti
245-35-19/ 9.8/8.7/25.8/805
265-35-19/10.7/9.4/26.3/790

RE-71R
255-35-19/10.2/. 9.3/26.0/801
275-35-19/10.9/10.0/26.6/784
265-35-19/10.7/.9.6/26.3/791
285-35-19/11.4/10.1/26.8/775

18" Hankook R-S4
245-40-18/10.1/9.1/25.6/811
265-40-18/11.0/9.7/26.2/793

Notes:

1. Section width and tire diameter can create rubbing issues.

2. Taller tire diameter with lower revs per mile impacts gearing and speedo accuracy.
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      01-23-2019, 11:22 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Looks like you’re right, the Chevy’s torque is definitely better in the upper RPM’s:
https://www.chevrolet.com/corvette-life/engines
https://www.dinancars.com/product/d4...or-bmw-f87-m2/

I haven’t looked at American V8 performance in quite a while, and assumed torque was worse than a direct injection turbo motor. Looks like the Stage 4 wins down low, but not up top. Nice work, Chevy!

So, I guess I was just getting on the gas harder & quicker, and myself in a GS would smoke myself in a heavily mod’ed M2.

Altho, I’m running BM3 now, which is putting out 460hp/485ft-lbs on the BMW Sport Dials, so that’d be a more even match. And, the M2C guys running just BM3 Stage 1 are close to 500hp, but we can only get 295/305 max rubber in the back, so we’re more traction limited than the Vette.

No doubt the GS is track car to have! Altho, I can either throw wife/kid/dog or track tires in the car, so there’s that.

PS. We’re severely off topic! Hah.
I mean.. owning a Vette means you are part of the Vette image.. and that's not a good thing... has always been the one thing stopping me from buying one. Great driving cars, but just can't bring myself to be seen driving one on the streets
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      01-23-2019, 12:29 PM   #55
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I don’t know if BMW stigma is any better. Even my German coworkers say “when I see a BMW merging I assume it will just cut me off, and usually I’m right”. Plus if you watch Top Gear you know that driving an M product automatically makes you a very British word for a particular body part starting with the letter C and rhyming with Ant. :-)
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      01-23-2019, 02:22 PM   #56
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What’s the difference bn a porcupine and a BMW?

One has the pricks on the outside.
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      01-23-2019, 02:46 PM   #57
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I see what you did there!

A sense of humor is always a good thing to have!
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      01-24-2019, 12:36 PM   #58
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What is the consensus about staggered vs square?

I prefer the ability to extend tire life by moving them around, and I prefer as much front end bite as possible, but I read that the torque tends to overwhelm the rears if they are square.
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      01-24-2019, 12:44 PM   #59
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It’s about balance. With stock suspension to maintain factory oversteer/understeer balance you need staggered. If you square it the car will have more front grip, thus shifting the balance toward oversteer.

And that’s ok if you’re looking for that. So there isn’t a right or wrong answer, just depends on what you’re looking for
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      01-26-2019, 02:04 PM   #60
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What is the consensus about staggered vs square?

I prefer the ability to extend tire life by moving them around, and I prefer as much front end bite as possible, but I read that the torque tends to overwhelm the rears if they are square.
I went staggered with my track wheels and tires. I did not want to compromise rear width.
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      08-09-2019, 11:36 PM   #61
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I’ve been looking at tires for next season as well. Similar usage. I’m leaning toward Bridgestone S007s. Tire Rack reviews and testing are favorable so far and a friend tried them and liked them this fall.

Looks like they’ll do well in wet conditions like the RE71, but won’t wear quite as fast. They’re also a bit cheaper than the RE71 and RS4.

Anyone else try them yet?
Quoting myself in case anyone else stumbles on this wondering the same thing.

After watching this thread progress in the spring, I planned to change course and order RS4s. However, they were sold out for a bit and I couldn’t wait due to an upcoming track day. I ordered the S007s instead for a square 265/35r18.

I’m a high intermediate driver by Audi Club NW standards, and bounce between intermediate and advanced with other clubs/organizations. So while I keep a decent pace, I probably have some bad habits that are hard on tires.

Suspension is stock other than camber plates and 2.8f/1.8r camber with 0 toe in front and factory spec in rear.

The S007s did fine for the first few laps, but after that, I’d see lap times fall off consistently, and a lap or two later, the tires got greasy, making the car a bit of a handful. Target pressure was 35psi. They also didn’t improve measurably on the OE Conti’s, or 255/275r19 PS4s. In fact, the PS4S was subjectively a lot better feel, but I just murdered front tires with a staggered setup on track. Those first few laps before they began to overheat showed promise though, with balanced handling and more even front to rear wear.

Anyway, S007’s were looking a little too worn after 6 days to survive another three days this weekend at The Ridge Motorsport Park, so I switched to RS4’s for today. Not only did I improve my personal best at this track by over 2 seconds, the RS4s also never greased up, and after 6 20-25 minute sessions, didn’t show nearly the wear that the S007s did after the first day.

By the end of the day, I felt confident enough to try DSC off for the last session.

Short version; the S007 isn’t a great track tire when held next to a 200tw tire like the RS4. Hopefully Saturday and Sunday go as well as today.

Last edited by bentom2; 08-10-2019 at 08:17 AM.. Reason: Fixed tire size.
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      08-10-2019, 05:50 AM   #62
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Thanks for the feedback. I was curious about the S007s but now I think I’ll stay clear.
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      08-12-2019, 10:50 AM   #63
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Thought I would share my impressions as I ran NT01s last season and am currently on RE-71s for this year. Both have been run on 18 x 10 wheels, square 275/35 on a 2017 M2 with lowered suspension (Bilsteins) and plenty of negative camber.

The NT01 is a great tire, and the tire of choice for most instructors. They are very grippy, are not that sensitive to temps/pressures and can take a lot of abuse. They are consistent throughout a 20 minute session. The NT01s lasted me over 10 track days last year and got faster all the way down to the chords. They are also fairly cheap and are not directional so can be rotated across all corners without issue. I think I paid $900 for the set, shipped. The two major cons in my mind are that they are horrible in standing water, especially as the tread wears down, and are a bit of a blunt instrument and lack the feel of the RE-71s. They may also take a number of laps to get into their window of operating temps on a cold day.

The RE-71s are essentially an autocross tire. And despite a marketed 200 treadwear, they are as grippy if not grippier than the NT01s, which are rated at 80 treadwear. They are more adept to be driven on the street and have excellent feel, are fine in standing water, and are up to temp after a few corners. They can let go quickly, but thanks to their feel, are easy to catch - I had bigger slides in the NT01s. They are also (surprisingly) ultimately faster than the NT01s, in my experience. About 0.5 seconds faster around Limerock, which is a 60 second lap. The major con is that they will not last nearly as long as the NT01s. Even with 3.2 negative camber, I don't think I will get more than 5 days out of them. They are also very sensitive to pressures/temps. After a few hot laps, they get overheated and greasy, requiring a lap or two at a slower pace to cool them down. Lastly, they are directional so technically should be remounted on the wheels to be rotated. I have run them backwards in the dry and my pace was down a bit, although that could just have been me.

I haven't decided on my next tires, but I may just go back to the NT01s next year because of their ease of use and consistency. For a time event, where lap times matter, I would go with RE-71s. But for a long season of 20 minute HPDE sessions, the NT01s may be better suited.

Not sure about the RS4s, never tried them. Tread pattern doesn't look conducive for a fast tire to me, but I could be wrong.
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      08-12-2019, 05:26 PM   #64
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Thought I would share my impressions as I ran NT01s last season and am currently on RE-71s for this year. Both have been run on 18 x 10 wheels, square 275/35 on a 2017 M2 with lowered suspension (Bilsteins) and plenty of negative camber.

The NT01 is a great tire, and the tire of choice for most instructors. They are very grippy, are not that sensitive to temps/pressures and can take a lot of abuse. They are consistent throughout a 20 minute session. The NT01s lasted me over 10 track days last year and got faster all the way down to the chords. They are also fairly cheap and are not directional so can be rotated across all corners without issue. I think I paid $900 for the set, shipped. The two major cons in my mind are that they are horrible in standing water, especially as the tread wears down, and are a bit of a blunt instrument and lack the feel of the RE-71s. They may also take a number of laps to get into their window of operating temps on a cold day.

The RE-71s are essentially an autocross tire. And despite a marketed 200 treadwear, they are as grippy if not grippier than the NT01s, which are rated at 80 treadwear. They are more adept to be driven on the street and have excellent feel, are fine in standing water, and are up to temp after a few corners. They can let go quickly, but thanks to their feel, are easy to catch - I had bigger slides in the NT01s. They are also (surprisingly) ultimately faster than the NT01s, in my experience. About 0.5 seconds faster around Limerock, which is a 60 second lap. The major con is that they will not last nearly as long as the NT01s. Even with 3.2 negative camber, I don't think I will get more than 5 days out of them. They are also very sensitive to pressures/temps. After a few hot laps, they get overheated and greasy, requiring a lap or two at a slower pace to cool them down. Lastly, they are directional so technically should be remounted on the wheels to be rotated. I have run them backwards in the dry and my pace was down a bit, although that could just have been me.

I haven't decided on my next tires, but I may just go back to the NT01s next year because of their ease of use and consistency. For a time event, where lap times matter, I would go with RE-71s. But for a long season of 20 minute HPDE sessions, the NT01s may be better suited.

Not sure about the RS4s, never tried them. Tread pattern doesn't look conducive for a fast tire to me, but I could be wrong.
Great feedback. For those interested I can offer some feedback from my first full season on RE71's, and it's not much of a full season really thus far (4 events).

Agree that they can get slippery when hot, and they can get hot quick if you don't stay on top of the tire. Therefore I've been careful not to overdrive the car.

Also agree that they can let go quite suddenly - more suddenly then what I was expecting, but they weren't too much trouble to rein in from that point.

Tread wear after 4 events is looking pretty good. I've driven them hard and with my -2.9deg camber I'm very happy with how they're looking. Insides are scrubbing up a bit but that's too be expected.

I've rotated them around the car (FL to RR etc) and I didn't notice any difference on track from running them directionally backwards.

Where I DID notice a big difference was the drive home one day in pouring rain, that was not a pleasant experience... felt like I was driving a boat - hardly any control over direction changes and yeah it was not good. But I was warned that would happen when running directional tires backwards in the rain

I'm about to flip them on the rims for my last 3 events of the year and then I think they'll be done. Overall, they are FAST. Much, much faster than the stock Super Sports obviously. How much faster than a Nitto or RS4, I've no idea, but maybe I'll find out in the next couple of seasons when I take a look at the competition.

So looks like my feedback lines up pretty closely to yours. Can anyone else offer any feedback so far this year running the RS4's?
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      08-12-2019, 10:09 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcmac View Post
Can anyone else offer any feedback so far this year running the RS4's?
Only 3 days on 265/35r18 mounted on 18x9.5 wheels this past weekend at The Ridge Motorsport Park. I improved 2 seconds/lap over my previous personal best in the first session of the weekend, which I set on the S007s. The square S007s were maybe a few tenths quicker than PS4S and OE Contis, both on the stock wheels.

I targeted 38psi and they seemed happy there. Experimented with dropping down to 37 and my lap times slowed a bit. Might play around a bit more with pressure, but 38 seemed like a happy place based on wear and they never got greasy. At 38psi, grip was consistent throughout 25 minute sessions, with very good audible communication as you approach the limits of grip. When the RS4s did lose traction, it was a bit abrupt, but still very catchable. The tires were up to temp and at full grip within a lap.

The next morning, we started in the rain. With just one day’s wear, they seemed to be fine, but I didn’t time my laps and didn’t really push all that hard since it was a short session and first three (of 6) laps were under yellow. There wasn’t any standing water on line, so can’t comment on hydroplaning.

Next session, rain had stopped and track was in that transitional stage where traction can be unpredictable. Other drivers were complaining about how slick the track was, but I had no traction issues.

I’m confident I can get at least 10 days out of them with flipping and rotating to spread the wear around, vs 6-8 for S007, PS4S and the OE ContiSportContact.
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      08-13-2019, 09:03 AM   #66
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After years of tracking I found the NT01, and used them extensively on my M4. They'd last forever and I too found them very consistent. Now with my M2C, I realized there's no 19" version. I'm hoping to find something comparable. I have not driven on R888R or Trofeos, so that may be something to try. I also have not tried SC2's, but I did like the original SC on my 911.
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