[Gunnerforlife]

I'd like to add my take on the PSS tire. They are not good in the rain period. I've had a new BMW M3 CS and from day one it didn't feel good and hydroplaned easily.

I later read about them and was surprised that people on Michelin website said they are good in the wet, so I tried convincing myself that I am just too worried and they are good.

So last week I ent to buy something in the wet, Temp in 50's and driving kind of fast on a high gear very smooth with small turning input and suddenly I hydroplaned and fish tailed. I tried desperately to get it back several times, but eventually I hit the curb.

I didn't know how this happened and I went to the site of the crash the next day to find that the road is not flat and goes up and down quickly and it seemed to have caused the tires to lose traction and never go it back.

I am an experienced drive, and drove different cars on all kinds of roads all over the world and never had an accident.

[MZWIE]

Originally Posted by Artemis

What about Spain ?

The unbelievable rules of the road in Spain (source: here):

1. Driving with one hand or arm outside of the vehicle can lead to a fine of €100. Article 18 of the General Traffic Law states that the driver and passengers should always maintain a sensible position inside the vehicle.
2. Driving without wearing a shirt, being barefoot or wearing flip-flops comes with a fine of €200. According to the law, driving without ‘proper’ clothing or footwear could diminish the driver’s capacity to control the vehicle.
3. You have to be extremely careful when parking on sand at the beach because if the area is classified as ‘protected’, you could end up with a fine of up to €6,000.
4. Making the most of being stationary at a red light by touching up your make-up or eating food could cost you €200 euro and two points off your licence.
5. Driving while blasting music in a quiet area like a hospital or during the early hours of the morning can lead to a fine of €80–100. In one case, a fine of €2,400 was imposed because the noise prevented homeowners from sleeping.
6. You should only use the car horn in cases of emergencies such as avoiding an accident and alerting another motorist that you plan on overtaking their vehicle. Any other use could lead to a fine of €80.
7. Driving in the left-hand lane or in the middle lane if the right-hand lane is free could result in a fine of €200, according to Articles 28 and 31.
8. Be careful if you’re having an argument while driving. If you are caught taking your eyes off the road on several occasions, you could end up with a fine of €80. The same amount will be applied if the driver is caught biting his nails, kissing a passenger or insulting other drivers through hand gestures.
9. Both hands should be kept on the steering wheel while driving and the driver’s ears should be visible.
10. Filling up the car with petrol with the radio on could lead to a fine of up to €91.

Oh how I wish these were enacted in the US.....

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by MZWIE

Oh how I wish these were enacted in the US.....

For real, check out this degenerate cruising along on Auto Pilot, in his 1996 Toyota..

[VisualEcho]

I know this is an old thread, but I'd like to dispute all the comments about how this accident was 100% driver error, and not any fault of the tires or vehicle engineering.

I'm not saying that driving the car in a normal manner would have caused this accident on its own, but who buys an M2 to drive it in a normal manner? Did BMW market the car to be driven in a normal manner? No. They marketed and sold the car as a street car to be driven aggressively, period. It's a farce to think this accident was 100% driver error, just like it's a farce to put it all on tires and engineering. It was both.

All I've ever owned is sports cars, and the M2 is by far the least planted. Hell, unless conditions are perfect I can't make use of stock power because the traction control is all over the place. I mean, why even consider adding more power when the current power is too much for new 265's?? Stock power would probably need a nice warm day with 295 888R's to actually put the power to the pavement. And don't get me started on how my '05 STi was 3,200 lbs, 350/380, wore 245's...and NEVER had an issue with grip.

There is a reason why you see BMW's in a lot of beautiful drifting videos, and it would do you all good to remember it. This car's ass is made to slide, will do so in pretty much any condition with stock power, so if you can't handle that circumstance then leave the damn TC on.

I do agree with the comments about attending a weekend driving school at a bare minimum, and keeping anything more than 6/10ths off the street.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by Artemis

What about Spain ?

The unbelievable rules of the road in Spain (source: here):

1. Driving with one hand or arm outside of the vehicle can lead to a fine of €100. Article 18 of the General Traffic Law states that the driver and passengers should always maintain a sensible position inside the vehicle.
2. Driving without wearing a shirt, being barefoot or wearing flip-flops comes with a fine of €200. According to the law, driving without ‘proper’ clothing or footwear could diminish the driver’s capacity to control the vehicle.
3. You have to be extremely careful when parking on sand at the beach because if the area is classified as ‘protected’, you could end up with a fine of up to €6,000.
4. Making the most of being stationary at a red light by touching up your make-up or eating food could cost you €200 euro and two points off your licence.
5. Driving while blasting music in a quiet area like a hospital or during the early hours of the morning can lead to a fine of €80–100. In one case, a fine of €2,400 was imposed because the noise prevented homeowners from sleeping.
6. You should only use the car horn in cases of emergencies such as avoiding an accident and alerting another motorist that you plan on overtaking their vehicle. Any other use could lead to a fine of €80.
7. Driving in the left-hand lane or in the middle lane if the right-hand lane is free could result in a fine of €200, according to Articles 28 and 31.
8. Be careful if you’re having an argument while driving. If you are caught taking your eyes off the road on several occasions, you could end up with a fine of €80. The same amount will be applied if the driver is caught biting his nails, kissing a passenger or insulting other drivers through hand gestures.
9. Both hands should be kept on the steering wheel while driving and the driver’s ears should be visible.
10. Filling up the car with petrol with the radio on could lead to a fine of up to €91.

I'm good with that except for Rule #1.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by Gunnerforlife

I'd like to add my take on the PSS tire. They are not good in the rain period. I've had a new BMW M3 CS and from day one it didn't feel good and hydroplaned easily.

I later read about them and was surprised that people on Michelin website said they are good in the wet, so I tried convincing myself that I am just too worried and they are good.

So last week I ent to buy something in the wet, Temp in 50's and driving kind of fast on a high gear very smooth with small turning input and suddenly I hydroplaned and fish tailed. I tried desperately to get it back several times, but eventually I hit the curb.

I didn't know how this happened and I went to the site of the crash the next day to find that the road is not flat and goes up and down quickly and it seemed to have caused the tires to lose traction and never go it back.

I am an experienced drive, and drove different cars on all kinds of roads all over the world and never had an accident.

You sure your CS wasn't on cup 2 tires?

[CosmosMpower]

I've never had any issues with MPSS in the rain.

[Megator]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

I know this is an old thread, but I'd like to dispute all the comments about how this accident was 100% driver error, and not any fault of the tires or vehicle engineering.

I'm not saying that driving the car in a normal manner would have caused this accident on its own, but who buys an M2 to drive it in a normal manner? Did BMW market the car to be driven in a normal manner? No. They marketed and sold the car as a street car to be driven aggressively, period. It's a farce to think this accident was 100% driver error, just like it's a farce to put it all on tires and engineering. It was both.

All I've ever owned is sports cars, and the M2 is by far the least planted. Hell, unless conditions are perfect I can't make use of stock power because the traction control is all over the place. I mean, why even consider adding more power when the current power is too much for new 265's?? Stock power would probably need a nice warm day with 295 888R's to actually put the power to the pavement. And don't get me started on how my '05 STi was 3,200 lbs, 350/380, wore 245's...and NEVER had an issue with grip.

There is a reason why you see BMW's in a lot of beautiful drifting videos, and it would do you all good to remember it. This car's ass is made to slide, will do so in pretty much any condition with stock power, so if you can't handle that circumstance then leave the damn TC on.

I do agree with the comments about attending a weekend driving school at a bare minimum, and keeping anything more than 6/10ths off the street.

Sorry but your wrong. Its the same thing as saying guns kill people, they don't, the asshole behind the trigger does.

OP ran out of talent or did not drive to the conditions and crashed. That the M2 can be a handful is neither here nor there, its something the OP should have been aware of and calculated for.

This could easily have been done by putting the car in normal TC with the throttle still in Sport +.

Also while the M2 is tail happy, its not a damn 1st gen Viper or S2000. It is perfectly controllable if you control more than 5 throttle positions.

As you say in your post, your limit on the street should be much lower than what the car is capable of. You never know what is around the corner on that mountain pass... that's why I like taking the car to the track, no cyclists, no cliffs, no high curbs, no cops, and a crew of people ready to help me if the worst were to happen.

[VisualEcho]

Originally Posted by Megator

Sorry but your wrong.

I find that people that use this line usually have little to say that's meaningful.

Originally Posted by Megator

Its the same thing as saying guns kill people, they don't, the asshole behind the trigger does.

But guns are partly to blame because they have the express intent to kill. So, compared to a bag of marshmallows, yeah, guns kill people, and to miss that point is to miss the idea entirely.

Originally Posted by Megator

OP ran out of talent or did not drive to the conditions and crashed.

Yes, in a car that's marketed to drive aggressively, can be dangerous to the unskilled, and as the conditions and tires worsen then it gets exponentially so. Unlike, say, a Honda Accord.

Originally Posted by Megator

This could easily have been done by putting the car in normal TC with the throttle still in Sport +.

And you know this because you were there.

Originally Posted by Megator

Also while the M2 is tail happy, its not a damn 1st gen Viper or S2000. It is perfectly controllable if you control more than 5 throttle positions.

I owned a 2001 S2000 and even though it had every kind of over-steer ever invented (and a few more that hadn't been invented), it wasn't nearly as dangerous as the M2 with the TC off because it didn't have as much weight and power.

[Megator]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

I find that people that use this line usually have little to say that's meaningful.



But guns are partly to blame because they have the express intent to kill. So, compared to a bag of marshmallows, yeah, guns kill people, and to miss that point is to miss the idea entirely.



Yes, in a car that's marketed to drive aggressively, can be dangerous to the unskilled, and as the conditions and tires worsen then it gets exponentially so. Unlike, say, a Honda Accord.



And you know this because you were there.



I owned a 2001 S2000 and even though it had every kind of over-steer ever invented (and a few more that hadn't been invented), it wasn't nearly as dangerous as the M2 with the TC off because it didn't have as much weight and power.

Mate you missed the point, incorrect operation of a device can lead to harm. Just like you can choke on your damned marshmallows if you don't know what your doing and stuff too many in your mouth at once.

Blaming the machine is asinine and is what people who can't own up to their faults and shortcomings do.

I know TC would have saved him because I drive the damn car at the limit and know how ham fisted you can be while TC still saves your bacon. I also know how permissive MDM mode is.

Im not going to change your mind and I dont care to because u dont seem like the kind of person worth spending time on.

[RocketTR]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

I know this is an old thread, but I'd like to dispute all the comments about how this accident was 100% driver error, and not any fault of the tires or vehicle engineering.

I'm not saying that driving the car in a normal manner would have caused this accident on its own, but who buys an M2 to drive it in a normal manner? Did BMW market the car to be driven in a normal manner? No. They marketed and sold the car as a street car to be driven aggressively, period. It's a farce to think this accident was 100% driver error, just like it's a farce to put it all on tires and engineering. It was both.

All I've ever owned is sports cars, and the M2 is by far the least planted. Hell, unless conditions are perfect I can't make use of stock power because the traction control is all over the place. I mean, why even consider adding more power when the current power is too much for new 265's?? Stock power would probably need a nice warm day with 295 888R's to actually put the power to the pavement. And don't get me started on how my '05 STi was 3,200 lbs, 350/380, wore 245's...and NEVER had an issue with grip.

There is a reason why you see BMW's in a lot of beautiful drifting videos, and it would do you all good to remember it. This car's ass is made to slide, will do so in pretty much any condition with stock power, so if you can't handle that circumstance then leave the damn TC on.

I do agree with the comments about attending a weekend driving school at a bare minimum, and keeping anything more than 6/10ths off the street.

But it is 100% driver error for this simple reason---the driver is responsible to know both his own limitations and the limitations of the car he's driving in a "spirited" manner. I own both RWD and AWD cars and I know my own limitations as a driver and I also understand that I can't drive to the same level of aggressiveness in my RDW car as I can in my AWD car. And that's exactly the reason why this crash was 100% driver error. You simply can't place blame on the car.

And for what it's worth---while I know I can drive more aggressively in my AWD car than I can in my RWD car, also understand that I could put my AWD car off the side of the road if I went completely nuts on a twisty mountain road. I'd just have to be completely irresponsible as a driver to push the car to that point. All cars have their limitations and the driver is solely responsible for knowing them.

[VisualEcho]

Originally Posted by RocketTR

But it is 100% driver error for this simple reason---the driver is responsible to know both his own limitations and the limitations of the car he's driving in a "spirited" manner.

Of course, I just think that the nature of the M2, which is pretty forgiving IMO, can escalate to extremely non-forgiving under certain circumstances.

Originally Posted by RocketTR

You simply can't place blame on the car.

I think you can, if the character significantly changes under certain circumstances.

And do me a favor and take your halo off, it's disingenuous. If you're a spirited driving type of guy you've probably pushed it over the edge a few times, and just got lucky. We've all been there.

[Gunnerforlife]

Originally Posted by akkando

You sure your CS wasn't on cup 2 tires?

No, I am sure. Most of the US dealers don't choose Cup 2.

[Gunnerforlife]

Originally Posted by RocketTR

But it is 100% driver error for this simple reason---the driver is responsible to know both his own limitations and the limitations of the car he's driving in a "spirited" manner. I own both RWD and AWD cars and I know my own limitations as a driver and I also understand that I can't drive to the same level of aggressiveness in my RDW car as I can in my AWD car. And that's exactly the reason why this crash was 100% driver error. You simply can't place blame on the car.

And for what it's worth---while I know I can drive more aggressively in my AWD car than I can in my RWD car, also understand that I could put my AWD car off the side of the road if I went completely nuts on a twisty mountain road. I'd just have to be completely irresponsible as a driver to push the car to that point. All cars have their limitations and the driver is solely responsible for knowing them.

I understand the gun argument although misplaced somehow. I am totally blaming myself for the accident and that I should have known better, I am definitely not blaming the tire.

What I am saying is The MSS as a tool should not be trusted in relatively cold wet conditions based on experience.

[RocketTR]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

Of course, I just think that the nature of the M2, which is pretty forgiving IMO, can escalate to extremely non-forgiving under certain circumstances.

Same can be said of virtually any car...and that's my point. The driver is responsible to understand his car.

I think you can, if the character significantly changes under certain circumstances.

How does the character of a car change under "certain" circumstances? Cars are machines. Conditions may change, but the machines do not.

And do me a favor and take your halo off, it's disingenuous. If you're a spirited driving type of guy you've probably pushed it over the edge a few times, and just got lucky. We've all been there.

Incorrect. I've never pushed it over the edge. I've pushed it nearly to the edge, but never over. Call it whatever you want, but I've never lost control of my car driving it for fun in a "spirited" fashion. Does that make me some kind of superhero? No, of course not. It just makes me someone who knows his limitations and the limitations of his car. That comes with experience over time. Push it a little harder and a little harder until you know you're near the edge, but don't go beyond that point and you'll be fine.

Anyway, the whole point here is that it's not the machine, it's the driver. To think otherwise is really what's disingenuous here.

[VisualEcho]

Originally Posted by RocketTR

How does the character of a car change under "certain" circumstances?

Sounds like you haven't driven many sports/GT cars. There are a lot of performance cars out there that have a Jeckyll/Hyde nature when conditions change, but don't concern yourself with this knowledge, machines are, after infallible .

Originally Posted by RocketTR

Incorrect. I've never pushed it over the edge.

I think we can end this discussion right there. Besides, aren't you missing a round of golf somewhere?

[Conissah]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

I'm not saying that driving the car in a normal manner would have caused this accident on its own, but who buys an M2 to drive it in a normal manner? Did BMW market the car to be driven in a normal manner? No. They marketed and sold the car as a street car to be driven aggressively, period. It's a farce to think this accident was 100% driver error, just like it's a farce to put it all on tires and engineering. It was both.

All I've ever owned is sports cars, and the M2 is by far the least planted. Hell, unless conditions are perfect I can't make use of stock power because the traction control is all over the place. I mean, why even consider adding more power when the current power is too much for new 265's?? Stock power would probably need a nice warm day with 295 888R's to actually put the power to the pavement. And don't get me started on how my '05 STi was 3,200 lbs, 350/380, wore 245's...and NEVER had an issue with grip.

In Missouri currently its 10 degrees cooler than here in NC. Are you aware that the MPSS are not meant to be run under 40 degrees, as per Michelen? Even when it's close to 40, they obviously won't have the worlds best traction. When I drrive to work in the morning (at around 40 degrees), I can get the car squirrel-ey in 2nd, but I don't come close to losing control. Why? Because TC remains on (or in MDM), and I don't drive like a cock bag.

Just because the car "iS fAsT" doesn't mean hoon everywhere you go. If you wreck because TC is off, or you were carrying to much heat into a corner, or because you accelerated too quickly and lost control (+ many many other reasons), it is the DRIVERS fault. Drive like a normal person, and you won't lose control of your car.

When it's warm out (60+), I get very good traction, even in 1st. That being said, I do think the 265's are a bit small, and once they're gone I plan on going wider. But I don't NEED them wider, it would just help with traction in 2nd. Your STi was also AWD, so not sure how that car is remotely relevant.

[VisualEcho]

Originally Posted by Conissah

In Missouri currently its 10 degrees cooler than here in NC. Are you aware that the MPSS are not meant to be run under 40 degrees, as per Michelen?

I bought my car August 31st, and the tires were new, However, they are the Conti's, not the MPSS.

I don't drive the M2 in a very aggressive manner, I have the Exige for that. But that's my point, the TC intervenes even in warm temps with new tires, and most of us know what happens to true Summer tires when they start to wear a bit (they have quite a bit less grip, and become literally treacherous in rain).

You guys don't have to agree with me, I'm just stating my opinion on how the car was marketed, and in perfect conditions driving it in a spirited manner with the TC off will probably not cause an issue, but as the tires wear or in less than perfect conditions (or both), it's an entirely different story.

And yes, it's up to the driver to learn these things, but they happen, even to those of us that are very aware of it.

[babaikram]

Originally Posted by Free Spirit

Sorry for your lost.. M2C time?

I read there was an article that Michelin Super Sport tires which use to come stock on the M2 has been reported as the cause of many M2s losing control in Germany, especially when it's rainy. Insurance companies and government regulators even got involved..

That's why BMW switched to Continentals..

Agreed Michelin Pilot Sport is bordering on being dangerous in the wet. I recommend no acceleration at all when taking bends

MPSS is rated C (Europe) for wet whilst Michelin Pilot Sport 4 is rated A. Thus a much better grip in the wet

[Conissah]

Originally Posted by babaikram

Agreed Michelin Pilot Sport is bordering on being dangerous in the wet. I recommend no acceleration at all when taking bends

MPSS is rated C (Europe) for wet whilst Michelin Pilot Sport 4 is rated A. Thus a much better grip in the wet

Why would people be driving their street car remotely 'hard' in the rain. I don't accelerate hard at all in the rain, cause it will spin 3rd easy.

[RocketTR]

Originally Posted by Gunnerforlife

I understand the gun argument although misplaced somehow. I am totally blaming myself for the accident and that I should have known better, I am definitely not blaming the tire.

What I am saying is The MSS as a tool should not be trusted in relatively cold wet conditions based on experience.

I agree with that, but for me it all still comes back to your car, however it is set up, is something that you need to know it's limitations. Think about all the variables and how things can change because of them. Even something like a new tire swap means you have to essentially relearn the limitations of your car when you're talking about driving the thing at 10/10ths. I'm not sure why some people seem to get bent out of shape at this concept...it's nothing new.

Think about the younger generation of guys whose parents had a front-wheel-drive Camry or Accord. Many of these kids learned to drive on those same cars and they became accustom to FWD driving dynamics. Then later on some of them find themselves behind the wheel of a sporty RWD car (this happened a lot with Mustangs and even with the Subaru BRZ and Scion FR-S) and put them into a ditch trying to drive them fast in the twisties. Classic case of driver error there....not much debating that one. But this still points back to the driver's responsibility....

[RocketTR]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

Sounds like you haven't driven many sports/GT cars. There are a lot of performance cars out there that have a Jeckyll/Hyde nature when conditions change, but don't concern yourself with this knowledge, machines are, after infallible .

Infallable? Really? LOL, you're a funny guy. The only time I can think where it would be appropriate to even try to use the word infallable regarding a car is if we were debating fully autonomous cars, you know, the self driving kind. But dumb cars just aren't capable of that because they don't make decisions.

I think we can end this discussion right there. Besides, aren't you missing a round of golf somewhere?

Try not to get your panties in a bunch. I've probably owned more sports/GT cars than you can imagine. And just because I don't go over the edge means nothing other than that I'm responsible for my own safety and therefore the safety of the people around me. I have certain rules that I follow that are meant to ensure my safety and the safety of people around me. Responsibility generally comes with wisdom. Some day you'll understand that.