[medphysdave]

It's been out for quite a while. They just haven't been slumming it with the BMW peasants.

[KevM2]

Originally Posted by Anthony1s

We need to get BLM to review this to see if there is any systemic racism built into this technology.

Of course there is systemic racism with all tires! Why are they black?? Why should the thing that the car rides on be coloured black?! Racism!!!

[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

If one doesn't understand how much more accurate and different the tire temperature measurement is in the carcass of the tire versus a TPMS air measurement, there's not much anyone can do. TPMS air measurements are a distant cousin to the tire carcass air measurement for all the physical reasons I outlined, precise mechanical engineering reasons, in a post above. Hence the point of "if you want to measure tire temperature", a TPMS is a near worthless measurement.

Accurate in these terms mean you're measuring a direct carcass/compound temperature with all the nuances and precision that provides. Having done extensive thermal analysis testing, instrumentation, analysis, design, etc, there is no question this is the case. A simple analysis will show it in fact. One can deny long proven thermal design analysis as invalid, but that doesn't make it not true.

"If one doesn't understand how much more accurate and different the tire temperature measurement is in the carcass of the tire versus a TPMS air measurement, there's not much anyone can do. "

Not once did I say it's not more accurate. I said it's not more useful. I think you need to start having a conversation with the actual person you're talking to, instead of making up things you think I am saying

"TPMS air measurements are a distant cousin to the tire carcass air measurement for all the physical reasons I outlined, precise mechanical engineering reasons, in a post above. Hence the point of "if you want to measure tire temperature", a TPMS is a near worthless measurement."

Umm, no. Air pressure at the tire surface and air pressure and the wheel barrel are not different. Nor did you outline a precise mechanical reason how they are.

"One can deny long proven thermal design analysis as invalid, but that doesn't make it not true."

Where the hell did I ever deny thermal analysis is invalid?

Like I said, you continually build strawman arguments against me and have a conversation with someone that doesn't exist. End of the day, you are wrong. Track Connect IS NOT more useful than TPMS. And you've continually not justified how you think it is. That's on you, not me.

[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

It's been out for quite a while. They just haven't been slumming it with the BMW peasants.

Yea, back in April 2019 it was released.

[CSBM5]

I have only *ever* been referring to TPMS temperature measurements. Only. Every single statement I have made in reference to that accuracy of tire sensor embedded measurement has all related to temperature measurement of which TPMS temperature measurement is a distant cousin. Reread my post on exactly why this is the case if you do not understand the heat transfer situation of a sensor embedded in the tread/carcass versus the air measurement at the TPMS sensor.

No place above, including in my specific post on the different heat paths and transfer methods, was it ever discussed that pressure was any different (obviously, just reread my posts).

It's a fairly involved analysis, so if you're not a thermal design engineer, you probably won't easily understand the huge difference between those two locations.

It's even more involved since there are two major sources of energy input, one of which primarily affects the bulk TPMS measurement (heat conduction from the hub interface, which on track and up front, is a large component; heat radiation input from the wheel barrel from the brake assembly). Both of those sources of input significantly effect the overall gross measurement a TPMS sensor measures.

In the meantime, the embedded tire sensor is primarily reading the overall and transient effect of the actual tire carcass from two primary sources of energy input: (1) the tread/pavement interface and (2) the hysteresis of the flexing of the carcass as it flexes through a complete cycle due to the contact patch contact.

This is PRECISELY why the temperature measured by the embedded sensor is massively more precise/accurate/pick-your-best-adjective measurement of the tread compound temperature, especially in the transient condition with its sharp peaks.

The TPMS temperature measurement is a far distant cousin to this embedded sensor value.

There are many analogies, but one fairly good one is that of a circuit board with a surface mount high power chip. The TPMS sensor here is measuring the overall average board, MIB, temperature; while the embedded sensor here is the semiconductor junction temperature.

That junction temperature varies dramatically with time, transient heat transfer, and reaches extremes in rate of change and max peaks that the overall board temperature measurement never shows. Similarly, the overall board temperature is also affected by other heat sources similar to the TPMS located air temp sensor.

Also while some may want to discard the actual embedded sensor accurate tread compound temperature transient and bulk data as not useful, since I have no experience with the entire system as designed, I'm retaining an open mind for now. Michelin tire engineers are some of the best in the business, and while it's possible they've created a worthless toy, I'm open to finding out what can be learned and what features the program provides.

[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

I have only *ever* been referring to TPMS temperature measurements. Only. Every single statement I have made in reference to that accuracy of tire sensor embedded measurement has all related to temperature measurement of which TPMS temperature measurement is a distant cousin. Reread my post on exactly why this is the case if you do not understand the heat transfer situation of a sensor embedded in the tread/carcass versus the air measurement at the TPMS sensor.

No place above, including in my specific post on the different heat paths and transfer methods, was it ever discussed that pressure was any different (obviously, just reread my posts).

It's a fairly involved analysis, so if you're not a thermal design engineer, you probably won't easily understand the huge difference between those two locations.

It's even more involved since there are two major sources of energy input, one of which primarily affects the bulk TPMS measurement (heat conduction from the hub interface, which on track and up front, is a large component; heat radiation input from the wheel barrel from the brake assembly). Both of those sources of input significantly effect the overall gross measurement a TPMS sensor measures.

In the meantime, the embedded tire sensor is primarily reading the overall and transient effect of the actual tire carcass from two primary sources of energy input: (1) the tread/pavement interface and (2) the hysteresis of the flexing of the carcass as it flexes through a complete cycle due to the contact patch contact.

This is PRECISELY why the temperature measured by the embedded sensor is massively more precise/accurate/pick-your-best-adjective measurement of the tread compound temperature, especially in the transient condition with its sharp peaks.

The TPMS temperature measurement is a far distant cousin to this embedded sensor value.

There are many analogies, but one fairly good one is that of a circuit board with a surface mount high power chip. The TPMS sensor here is measuring the overall average board, MIB, temperature; while the embedded sensor here is the semiconductor junction temperature.

That junction temperature varies dramatically with time, transient heat transfer, and reaches extremes in rate of change and max peaks that the overall board temperature measurement never shows. Similarly, the overall board temperature is also affected by other heat sources similar to the TPMS located air temp sensor.

Also while some may want to discard the actual embedded sensor accurate tread compound temperature transient and bulk data as not useful, since I have no experience with the entire system as designed, I'm retaining an open mind for now. Michelin tire engineers are some of the best in the business, and while it's possible they've created a worthless toy, I'm open to finding out what can be learned and what features the program provides.

Ok, I am done with this convo. You specifically called me out saying that I was wrong and "just speculating" when I said that the Track Connect sensors aren't more useful to the end user than the TPMS sensors, in that the difference in data doesn't lead to more setup changes to be made. Yet you continually do not prove how I am wrong. Just fill your argument against what I said with irrelevant stuff about accuracy, and completely ignore that accuracy has no end effect on my point. (which, by the way, you still don't get that the sensors aren't more accurate than TMPS, they just read heat quicker. speed of reading =/= accuracy) The temperature readings between Track Connect and TMPS have absolutely no effective difference in usefulness, other than the Track Connect sensors being more useful in it's own software to recommend tire pressures to the end user.

This has been an entire conversation of me asking you to provide a single example of them being more useful in setup changes other than tire pressure, and you not giving any. Literally, that's all I've been asking for from you. You just go on and on about how they give more accurate temperature readings. Which, for one, is not true. And two, has zero relevance to what I claimed and you are calling me out on being wrong for.

[Flying Ace]

Through a Michelin marketing event I attended last year, I ordered a set of Cup 2s for my M6. Michelin actually sent me a set of Track Connect Cup 2s instead.

Here are some up close pictures of the tires in case you were curious what it looked like. The sensors fit inside the tire.

As I was not prepared to get connected versions, I'm now debating whether I should dive in all the way and buy the sensors.

[arciga18]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

Through a Michelin marketing event I attended last year, I ordered a set of Cup 2s for my M6. Michelin actually sent me a set of Connected Smart Cup 2s.

Here are some up close pictures of the tires in case you were curious what it looked like. The sensors fit inside the tire.

As I was not prepared to get connected versions, I'm now debating whether I should dive in all the way and buy the sensors.

Nice pics .

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

Through a Michelin marketing event I attended last year, I ordered a set of Cup 2s for my M6. Michelin actually sent me a set of Connected Smart Cup 2s.

Here are some up close pictures of the tires in case you were curious what it looked like. The sensors fit inside the tire.

As I was not prepared to get connected versions, I'm now debating whether I should dive in all the way and buy the sensors.

Do it! How can you resist the inner geek.

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Do it! How can you resist the inner geek.

Sensor.kit is $500! Not sure if geeking out is worth the cost of 1 corner!

https://m.tirerack.com/tpms/detail.jsp?ID=2843

[Anthony1s]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

Sensor.kit is $500! Not sure if geeking out is worth the cost of 1 corner!

https://m.tirerack.com/tpms/detail.jsp?ID=2843

Tires are also $40-$180 more expensive each than the regular Sport Cup 2.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

Since these new Connect tires + box haven't been evaluated by anyone here there is no proof how well they perform.
I can only say that I've found the TPMS useful. It tells me in the morning what the cold pressure is accurately with the usual .7 psi lower reading that both of my BMWs have had. I just add .7 to the reading. When the tires warm up I can see how much the pressure goes up and how hot the tires get in a given situation. A 4 pound gain with normal street driving is about normal. On a hot day in the twisties is where it's really obvious how hot the tires get. If they get too hot add more air. If they don't get hot enough let some air out. This whole tire pressure/temperature thing is not exact rocket science. It may be more predictable at one track on a given day but ambient temperature can change the optimum pressure, cool mornings will be different than hot afternoons. Chasing optimum pressure in mountain twisties is hopeless. You have varying roads, temperature and altitude.
I think this new tech might be more accurate than TPMS, how good it will be compared to the evaluation of an experienced driver remains to be seen.

Earlier this week after a spirited drive in the mountains, TPMS told me that it was fun.

[AlpsRider]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Earlier this week after a spirited drive in the mountains, TPMS told me that it was fun.

Attachment 2349100

That was quite a workout! I bet those tires were getting a bit greasy at that rate!