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      02-14-2020, 07:40 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggeezer View Post
You can change parameters for traction control and MDM so that you get Euro GTS MDM. That said, I'm not sure there's any difference between US GTS and Euro GTS MDM.

I have GTS diff and Euro GTS MDM and you can definitely get sideways.
According to Alex there is a difference between GTS and Euro MDM. Others can chime in if they've tried both settings...
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      02-18-2020, 01:24 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEAT TIME RULES View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggeezer View Post
You can change parameters for traction control and MDM so that you get Euro GTS MDM. That said, I'm not sure there's any difference between US GTS and Euro GTS MDM.

I have GTS diff and Euro GTS MDM and you can definitely get sideways.
According to Alex there is a difference between GTS and Euro MDM. Others can chime in if they've tried both settings...
They are different things (eg different parameters) and they both individually make a noticeable difference.

My car had euro mdm from the factory, but with the gts also then configured the feel of the rear end with the lsd was much better
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      02-18-2020, 09:19 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEAT TIME RULES View Post
I'm north of Boston so it will be a bit before I can get the car out and play with it. Excited to see what the changes do for the car...
Curious how M2C MDM compares to GTS MDM
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      02-18-2020, 11:32 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewc89 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEAT TIME RULES View Post
I'm north of Boston so it will be a bit before I can get the car out and play with it. Excited to see what the changes do for the car...
Curious how M2C MDM compares to GTS MDM
My guess is that the gts is looser and you feel the lsd more. However, the dsc module in the m2c is different, so you'd have to have access to m2c + gts coded og m2 to compare.
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      02-18-2020, 11:50 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by widetyres View Post
My guess is that the gts is looser and you feel the lsd more. However, the dsc module in the m2c is different, so you'd have to have access to m2c + gts coded og m2 to compare.
I ask b.c a friend of mine with an OG purchased Thor flash and did the GTS EPS and GHAS but did M2C MDM because he said it felt better. Wondering if that's all in his head or if the adaptation values are actually more aggressive/suited better to the F87.
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      05-03-2020, 12:38 AM   #50
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Original post updated with Limited Slip Differential (GHAS) comments.
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      05-03-2020, 12:51 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by widetyres View Post
Original post updated with Limited Slip Differential (GHAS) comments.
I'll probably code this in later as well. Thanks for the tip!
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      05-04-2020, 10:17 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
I just coded mine and I prefer the f87CS steering option alot more because I feel like the F82 GTS mode was way too artificial with how much they heavy they tried to make it feel. The F87CS is alot lighter (would have prefered it 15-25% heavier) but I think the steering feel is vastly better, and there is no dead spot in the middle (not really too evident on the GTS mode) or center seeking feeling like the GTS mode has.

My ISTEP version is F020-19-07-539, which is also the newest one that my PSZDATA files support.
I'm under the impression the GTS steering is already lighter than pre LCI. It's difficult to imagine F87cs is a lot lighter.

In addition, did you ever use F80CS and F87comp steering for comparison in terms of "heaviness"?

I've always hated heavy steering, because today at the EPS age, mostly it just makes car feel sluggish at low speed and doesn't feed back much of the road. 911 steering is way lighter, no mention of the even more brilliant 981 steering. Alfa Romeo Guilia QV also has a very light steering and it is a couple leagues better steering than M.
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      05-04-2020, 11:04 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
I'm under the impression the GTS steering is already lighter than pre LCI. It's difficult to imagine F87cs is a lot lighter.

In addition, did you ever use F80CS and F87comp steering for comparison in terms of "heaviness"?

I've always hated heavy steering, because today at the EPS age, mostly it just makes car feel sluggish at low speed and doesn't feed back much of the road. 911 steering is way lighter, no mention of the even more brilliant 981 steering. Alfa Romeo Guilia QV also has a very light steering and it is a couple leagues better steering than M.
I don't think that the gts is lighter than pre lci's default steering, iirc it is significantly heavier. Tbh I think after driving my m2 again after a long winter the f87cs steering weight is perfect, so I will have to retract prior statements about wanting it to be a bit heavier.
Summary: f87cs is indeed alot lighter than f87gts which is heavier than stock. I think f87cs might be lighter than stock eps settings.


I have not had the chance to experiment with any other steering settings or other cars unfortunately. All of my friends own subarus and evos due to the climate here. So unfortunately I don't have anyone to borrow a car from, unless I go to the dealership.


I agree with you 100%, heavy steering=/= good. I also feel the m2's steering wheel was so artificially heavy in an attempt to convey sportiness that all feeling was numbed out. You will definitely like f87cs if you haven't codes that in already, it is the perfect heft and has really good road feel. It also doesn't have the center seeking feel of a heavy steering wheel where it feels like the wheel keeps fighting you to go back to center. It also removed any dead spots in the center.
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Last edited by F87source; 05-04-2020 at 11:10 PM..
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      05-04-2020, 11:49 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
I'm under the impression the GTS steering is already lighter than pre LCI. It's difficult to imagine F87cs is a lot lighter.

In addition, did you ever use F80CS and F87comp steering for comparison in terms of "heaviness"?

I've always hated heavy steering, because today at the EPS age, mostly it just makes car feel sluggish at low speed and doesn't feed back much of the road. 911 steering is way lighter, no mention of the even more brilliant 981 steering. Alfa Romeo Guilia QV also has a very light steering and it is a couple leagues better steering than M.
I don't think that the gts is lighter than pre lci's default steering, iirc it is significantly heavier. Tbh I think after driving my m2 again after a long winter the f87cs steering weight is perfect, so I will have to retract prior statements about wanting it to be a bit heavier.
Summary: f87cs is indeed alot lighter than f87gts which is heavier than stock. I think f87cs might be lighter than stock eps settings.


I have not had the chance to experiment with any other steering settings or other cars unfortunately. All of my friends own subarus and evos due to the climate here. So unfortunately I don't have anyone to borrow a car from, unless I go to the dealership.


I agree with you 100%, heavy steering=/= good. I also feel the m2's steering wheel was so artificially heavy in an attempt to convey sportiness that all feeling was numbed out. You will definitely like f87cs if you haven't codes that in already, it is the perfect heft and has really good road feel. It also doesn't have the center seeking feel of a heavy steering wheel where it feels like the wheel keeps fighting you to go back to center. It also removed any dead spots in the center.
I did full GTS chassis and transmission coding in 2017, but revert to stock in a short while. I was a bit OCD, not feeling like messing around with the GTS chassis tuning which isn't really made for the M2.

Just curious is the F87cs EPS the default setting for the M2 comp? I may give a try.
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      05-05-2020, 12:50 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
I did full GTS chassis and transmission coding in 2017, but revert to stock in a short while. I was a bit OCD, not feeling like messing around with the GTS chassis tuning which isn't really made for the M2.

Just curious is the F87cs EPS the default setting for the M2 comp? I may give a try.
You shouldn't have to worry about it, the drivetrain components in the m2 are identical to that of the m4 gts, so they can handle these settings. Besides nothing is worse than full off, and having power being sent to the ground regardless of the slip.

I have no idea what the default EPS settings are on the m2C. But yes, give the f87cs EPS settings a try.
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      05-05-2020, 08:18 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
I did full GTS chassis and transmission coding in 2017, but revert to stock in a short while. I was a bit OCD, not feeling like messing around with the GTS chassis tuning which isn't really made for the M2.
I was also cautious about this, particularly about altering the diff which I held off the ages. However, the GTS DSC makes only beneficial benefits as detailed in the post.

I haven't been running the diff/GHAS update for long, but am thoroughly enjoying the change of feel to the car that it has made so far! I had the opportunity to get in a good country lane blast and the car was the most fun it has ever been!


Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Just curious is the F87cs EPS the default setting for the M2 comp? I may give a try.
Yes as far I am aware
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      05-05-2020, 08:20 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
I did full GTS chassis and transmission coding in 2017
When did you last do an ISTEP update? If you are running a 2017 version, then you will get noticeable changes from an update.
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      05-05-2020, 08:43 AM   #58
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[QUOTE=SeanWRT;26134466]I'm under the impression the GTS steering is already lighter than pre LCI. It's difficult to imagine F87cs is a lot lighter.

I sense the following myself:

In feel order:
1. F82GTS
2. F87 (F020-19-03-530)
3. F87CS
4. F87 LCI
5. F87 OG

In terms of weight (heaviest first):
1. F87 LCI
2. F82GTS
3. F87 (F020-19-03-530)
4. F87CS
5. F87 OG

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
In addition, did you ever use F80CS and F87comp steering for comparison in terms of "heaviness"?
Haven't tried the F80CS. The F87 comp = "F087CS"

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
I've always hated heavy steering, because today at the EPS age, mostly it just makes car feel sluggish at low speed and doesn't feed back much of the road. 911 steering is way lighter, no mention of the even more brilliant 981 steering. Alfa Romeo Guilia QV also has a very light steering and it is a couple leagues better steering than M.
This is was true and was a big issue with the early BWM EPS - it was awful, as many of us know. However, the firmware for the ///M EPS steering rack has evolved a lot and is IMO a success story for the digital car - there is now plenty of feel for sure, and in many variants more than in the F90 cars. The only thing it lacks IMO is the way you can hang your weight onto hydraulic steering in a bend - the EPS isn't quite as good in the final parts of resistance, but in all other areas is now very good.
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      05-05-2020, 09:38 AM   #59
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Thank you widetyres for going in details with me on this topic.

I tend to agree with everything you said except for M2 OG having the lightest steering weight. I'm on original EPS version and I think it's heavier than the M4C I've been driving and a lot other Ms (I drove a lot of F8X for long time). Especially in comfort mode, I barely tell the weight difference from sport if I didn't pay attention.

I did track days quite often and get to use different Ms from BMW China. IMO the best steering feel is with M4CS but it has a lot to do with the car itself (chassis, tyre and power plant). But with every single F8X, on low speed turn in, they're all numb...you know you lose front end only when it happens and it goes from understeer to oversteer quite dramatically because of the unstable rear end traction. Instead they're brilliantly at high speed turn because that's more about balance.

In summary, I think M2 is much more made for street than for track (M4 albeit having less old school M feel, is a much more serious track machine), sometimes steering feedback at limit isn't really all that important. When not at limit, all variants of steering tuning is close except for the weight. Which is why I care a lot about it and simply want the lightest one possible. Those things coming from a licensed driver like me is weird I know...but it's very honest input of mine.

Thanks
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      05-05-2020, 04:36 PM   #60
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Something SeanWRT and I have been trying to figure out in the THOR thread:

Are the F87CS settings the same as those that are the OEM settings for the M2C?
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      05-06-2020, 01:29 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Something SeanWRT and I have been trying to figure out in the THOR thread:

Are the F87CS settings the same as those that are the OEM settings for the M2C?
Yes

M2 OG & LCI = F087
M2C = F087CS
M2 CS = Most likely F087GTS from other posts I have seen, although I haven't been able to verify myself due to the age of my ISTEP

Last edited by widetyres; 05-06-2020 at 02:23 AM..
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      05-06-2020, 08:23 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by widetyres View Post
Yes

M2 OG & LCI = F087
M2C = F087CS
M2 CS = Most likely F087GTS from other posts I have seen, although I haven't been able to verify myself due to the age of my ISTEP
Has anyone here tried F087GTS?

And, a lot of the discussion regarding the settings has been around steering feel. What about MDM & differential--how would you all rank the amount of slip and cohesiveness of the different MDM/differential settings for the OG M2?

M2 (F087) < M4 GTS (F082GTS) < M2C (F087CS) < M2 CS (F087GTS)?

Last edited by ZM2; 05-06-2020 at 08:38 AM..
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      05-06-2020, 01:14 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Has anyone here tried F087GTS?

And, a lot of the discussion regarding the settings has been around steering feel. What about MDM & differential--how would you all rank the amount of slip and cohesiveness of the different MDM/differential settings for the OG M2?

M2 (F087) < M4 GTS (F082GTS) < M2C (F087CS) < M2 CS (F087GTS)?
For some reason I don't have f087gts even though I have the same ISTEP update as people who so have it.

I think it's F087 < f087cs (slips more consistently than gts but to a lesser degree) < f082gts
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      05-06-2020, 01:47 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
For some reason I don't have f087gts even though I have the same ISTEP update as people who so have it.

I think it's F087 < f087cs (slips more consistently than gts but to a lesser degree) < f082gts
I used F082GTS a couple summers ago and it still had a little too much intervention on track for my taste. I like the idea of F087CS being better suited to the dynamics of the M2 than F082GTS, but I don't like that it may have more intervention.

The new THOR DCT flash looks pretty interesting and it only costs $100 more to get easy MDM/Differential customization and flashing to go with it, but they do not have F087GTS available at the moment.

So, just trying to investigate and lay all this out clearly. Would appreciate other folks input on F087GTS availability, and how the MDM and differential slip perform relative to F087CS and F082GTS.
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      05-09-2020, 11:42 AM   #65
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F087GTS anyone?
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      05-10-2020, 12:18 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
F087GTS anyone?
I've always had the reservation for using chassis tuning made for other platforms...

I'm not assuming our stock Ms come out of factory dialed in perfectly (but surely purposefully), but BMW engineers ought to know way more and be way better equipped, and spend serious time in development.

Personally I'd rule out all GHAS and DSC from F80/82, simply because different weight balance (not just static front/rear weight distribution) and of course different dimension.

As for the M2 CS (F87gts file), it carries over adaptive damper from F80/82 which I believe diff and DSC will work accordingly for each c/s/s+ mode. Therefore, it does not fit M2 OG and M2C well in my opinion.

However, steering should be no issue, just the preference. You can use E-SYS... I'm not a big fan of E-SYS TBH, it has the Savvy look and take time to get familiar with, but in the end it does very basic and simple things...feels like trying hard figuring out a long and boring menu and finally order something from recommendation page one and it's even not all that good.
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