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      09-20-2019, 06:06 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3GymNut View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanG View Post
The N55 did not pass the 2019 European emissions. They decided to fix the S55 and use it in two Ms instead of fixing both the N55 and the S55. A well documented fact. Also explains why there was no M2 base in 2019.
No granted I know that was an issue, but If I remember correctly the head of the M division was interviewed about the M2 and stated that with wanting to improve the M2C they wanted to give it the proper M engine as well so they killed two birds with one stone.
Spot on.....aside from BMW throwing a bigger turbo to get more power(not fuel efficient/would def. not meet emmission ), the N55 was done.

So it was easiest for them to just throw the s55 in there and call it a day.
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      09-20-2019, 06:24 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by tranck View Post
You didn't address the sound of each car.

If you think the S55 sounds better than the N55, I really don't know what to tell you.

I've sat in both cars - the OG M2 seats were more comfortable to me - just my opinion.
I agree with you. The OG M2 seats are more comfortable for me also.
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      09-20-2019, 07:41 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by ZeroFx View Post
None of those things are true.

55kg.
M4 seats are way better for the average driver and race drivers run buckets.
S55 isnt debatable about being better than N55
You can run 18's on both cars in most markets.
How can you fit 18's on the M2C?
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      09-20-2019, 07:57 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Oberbürgermeister View Post
How can you fit 18's on the M2C?
Tire Rack has zero 18 inch wheels that fit an M2C.
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      09-20-2019, 08:32 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by M3GymNut View Post
I'm not denying or saying that the OG M2 is not a hell of a car. I know it's a good car because my friend owns one. What I also can do is send you links of articles and videos of people saying that the M2C should have been the first M2 that should have come out. So your previous post is kind of pointless.

Also, there are TONS of OG M2 car owners that were extremely upset when the M2C was announced feeling a bit betrayed by BMW that expressed their feelings all over these forums...why do you think that is?
Well of course people say the M2C is how the M2 should have come in the first place. There will be articles and people who say the M2CS is how the M2 and the M2C should have come in the first place because of the CF roof, the nicer seat leather, and the adaptive suspension. What then?
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      09-20-2019, 08:59 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberbürgermeister View Post
How can you fit 18's on the M2C?
Its the brakes, gotta go for the 4/2 pot to fit 18inch, some markets dont allow you to spec them, or spec the okder rims on the m2c, some do
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      09-20-2019, 09:39 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Hankdoll View Post
That's fact? I thought the move to the S55 was due to emissions. Tell me more.
They were going do always do the S55 but it was supposed to go in the CS only. Emissions messed up their plans and it was easier to just put the S55 in the base M2 so they did and called it the Competition while charging pennies for an upgrade that was supposed to cost tens of thousands. A gift for those who waited, never to happen again I am sure.
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      09-20-2019, 11:21 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by akkando View Post
They were going to always do the S55 but it was supposed to go in the CS only. Emissions messed up their plans and it was easier to just put the S55 in the base M2 so they did and called it the Competition while charging pennies for an upgrade that was supposed to cost tens of thousands. A gift for those who waited, never to happen again I am sure.
That's a proper summary of what happened.

And actually, over here you were sitting on the front row witnessing how some things went back and forth via the M2 Competition development rumors thread (here). Quite symbolically, the thread was locked on the day of the M2 Competition press launch (Apr 17, 2018). It served no further purpose anymore from that day onwards.

Digging up the past to check how was looked into the future back then: for an idea of how information leaks back in April 2017 showed a pattern: see below. With what we know by now (Sep 2019) you may recognize that plans have definitely taken a turn later on in 2017-2018. Engine output figures were already accurate back then and things got delayed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
APRIL 2017: some interesting info surfaced in the M2 section of the German forum '2erTalk' (sources: here, here and here):
  • January 2018: M2 CS ordering process starts
  • March 2018: M2 CS goes into production | S55 engine | 410 hp | no limited edition
  • March 2019: M2 GTS (or M2 CSL?) goes into production | S55 engine | 450 hp | limited edition/production (the '999' figure has been heard, but could change)
Time will tell if the above information is accurate. Interesting, to say the least. First time that I read that the M2 GTS is definitely scheduled. I thought it was just some pipe dream. But actually, this could make sense if you consider BMW M special models history: a limited edition M2 GTS as the final curtain call for the first-generation M2 (end of production: 2020).

A 2016 production schedule screenshot (deleted in the meantime) showed that the M2 CS was scheduled to go into production in March 2018 at the BMW Leipzig factory (source: here). "F87CS" was mentioned, rather than "F87COMP" or "F87COMPETITION". Also coders retrieved "F87CS" in the system codes:

(source: here)

Production schedule of the "M2 Competition" (logged in the system as "M2 CS" - the "M2 CS" name may return for the 2019 M2 variant):
  • scheduled start of production: March 2018
  • scheduled end of production: October 2020

(source (March 2017): here).
And compare with the December 2017 update:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
'M2 COMPETITION' UPDATE #4 (DECEMBER 2017):
  • Autumn 2017: 'M2 Competition' PR campaign cars have been built (see here);
  • 2018: release and presentation of the M2 Competition; presentation location currently still unknown:
  • mid 2018: M2 Competition (3.0 S55 engine - 302kW) replaces the base M2 (3.0 N55 engine - 272 kW);
  • Sep 1, 2018: further step of EU6c emissions regulations implementation takes force in the European Union; non-compliance by a vehicle manufacturer = EU national authorities shall refuse to grant EC type approval or national type approval and shall consider certificates of conformity to be no longer valid and prohibit registration, sale or entry into service of non-compliant vehicles (see here, here and here);
  • late 2019: though still unclear, a more powerful M2 sibling (3.0 S55 engine) is rumored to be scheduled for release; likely named "M2 CS" instead of "M2 CSL" (see here, here, here, here and here); resources assigned to work on this M2 variant project are rumored to be scheduled until August 2018 (here); the '999 cars' production figure has already been rumored a couple of times (see here, here, here and here).

(source: here).
Owners of an M2 Competion noticed that some car parts feature an "M2 CS" stamp on the back. As you can see, there is some (forgotten) history behind it.

And as akkando suggested, the M2 Competition was/is a bargain. It was not supposed to happen that way. To owners who regret the M2 Competition exhaust sound (OPF): think again, because thanks to those EU regulations BMW surrendered and gave the CS goods away at an extraordinary competitive price. And so the forthcoming M2 CS (2020) will have one big 4-seater competitor: the M2 Competition, costing about 65% of the M2 CS price (price rumors range from €90K to €95K for Germany, which is 45% to 50% extra compared to the M2 Competition price).
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      09-20-2019, 11:46 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroFx View Post
None of those things are true.

55kg.
M4 seats are way better for the average driver and race drivers run buckets.
S55 isnt debatable about being better than N55
You can run 18's on both cars in most markets.
I don’t shop in other markets... M2C is only available with the heavier brakes here. The rest of the world was very fortunate to have choices that weren’t made available to the the US market.

3450 vs 3600lbs in US trim with a manual transmission. Is that better?

Not sure I follow your point on seats. I don’t race, but I do track my street M2 ~20 days per year. Harnesses make a big difference and can’t be run with the OE seats in the M2C due to the integrated headrest. One size fits some sounds like a downgrade from a more adjustable seat that can comfortably accommodate a range of driver sizes and builds, and not just "average" ones.

I said the N55 sounds better than the S55. You said the S55 IS better than the N55. I think we’re stating different opinions.

The OG M2 is a superior package, with minimal additional cost, as a dual duty street/track car, especially in the US. Sorry.

Last edited by bentom2; 09-21-2019 at 12:05 AM..
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      09-21-2019, 06:18 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by bentom2 View Post
I said the N55 sounds better than the S55. You said the S55 IS better than the N55. I think we’re stating different opinions.
You know, before test driving the M2C I was fully expecting the overall package to make up for the weak sound but after driving home in the LCI I realized it wasn't that easy.

I guess "sound" means more to me than I thought...
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      09-21-2019, 06:45 AM   #77
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I think there are a couple things going on that have kind of been touched on. First, like the 1 Series M (BMW was careful not to call it and actual M car), the OG M2 is really just the entry level car with some upspecced M parts in it. While they both were fun to drive and great performers, they are honestly a bit of frankensteins for their respective day. The M2C now has an S coded engine, but of course BMW hobbled it a little so it wouldn’t have the same output as the M3/4. Which is why the M2CS is coming. And everyone knows the real M car is the M3 that started it all. All the reviews in the world that say the M2 is the real M3 doesn’t change the badge the factory put on it. So in some sense the M purists probably look at M2 owners as posers to some extent.

The other part of it is like the 911/Cayman comparison. When you say 911, everyone knows you have a Porsche, that’s all you have to say. They know what it looks like and that it’s an incredible car. If you say Cayman, half the time you have to then explain its a Porsche to some people. And others know if you had the money, you probably would have gotten the 911 instead of the Cayman. I own a 718 and love it but can tell you there’s even snobbery within the Cayman crowd saying the 718 is terrible due to going back to flat four. It doesn’t matter that my car outperforms all previous Cayman before it.
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      09-21-2019, 07:25 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanG View Post
Lets be honest here. This is an old discussion that was settled by the 1M. Like the OG M2 it did not have an S engine but it is highly respected and still sought after. Both the 1M and M2 are real M cars.
I'm new to the BMW world, so please forgive my ignorance, but could you elaborate? I mean, what makes an M-car an M-car? Is it really an S designation on the engine? Most all high-end manufacturers have their performance divisions, and they seem to change their themes with the times, and still consider those cars "special", so why is the OG M2 not treated like this? I mean, if it just comes down to performance bits added to a standard model, then the OG M2 would fit, no? And if it doesn't, then isn't the new M2C just an M2 with M4 engine and brakes? I mean, they only used the new S engine because of emissions, not because that was the original intent from the beginning.

Is there something simple I'm missing?
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      09-21-2019, 10:41 AM   #79
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Funny, I remember when the purists considered any turbo engine to be heresy and not a true "M" car.
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      09-21-2019, 10:48 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanG View Post
Lets be honest here. This is an old discussion that was settled by the 1M. Like the OG M2 it did not have an S engine but it is highly respected and still sought after. Both the 1M and M2 are real M cars.
I'm new to the BMW world, so please forgive my ignorance, but could you elaborate? I mean, what makes an M-car an M-car? Is it really an S designation on the engine? Most all high-end manufacturers have their performance divisions, and they seem to change their themes with the times, and still consider those cars "special", so why is the OG M2 not treated like this? I mean, if it just comes down to performance bits added to a standard model, then the OG M2 would fit, no? And if it doesn't, then isn't the new M2C just an M2 with M4 engine and brakes? I mean, they only used the new S engine because of emissions, not because that was the original intent from the beginning.

Is there something simple I'm missing?
One thing for sure is that mirrors, seat leather, carbon trim, and buttons does not make a car an M.

As to the exact science for what turns a regular series car into an M it's hard to go by anything but how the car feels, and how it performs. Often to make the car feel and perform more like true performance car suspension needs changing, the car needs to be lighter and weight balanced closer to 50/50, the seats need to hold the driver in place, the wheels and tires wider and the body needs to accommodate the larger size, the drive train needs to be able to put the power to the road, the transmission responsive, the brakes to hold up to repeated use, the cooling to allow the car consistent performance which might mean body updates to help keep air flowing to the right places, the engine will also need to be strong enough to be run hard regularly for extended lengths of time.

I guess the short version is an M car needs to meet some minimum level of responsiveness to driver inputs for extended periods of time.

Where the m2 starts to fall short to me is in the cooling department, because the intercooler heat soaks rather quickly resulting in a lot of power and engine feel to be lost when the needle approaches redline. Previous M cars have had their deficiencies too. For example the e9X m3 brakes are known to not be up to the task when driven hard for extended periods of time.
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      09-21-2019, 11:40 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akkando View Post
One thing for sure is that mirrors, seat leather, carbon trim, and buttons does not make a car an M.
I imagined the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akkando View Post
As to the exact science for what turns a regular series car into an M it's hard to go by anything but how the car feels, and how it performs.
It might be easier to ask why BMW put an M in front of the 235i. I mean, is it just an M in spirit? And if the OG M2 isn't really an M, what is it then if compared to an M235i, just a bit more M but not totally M without an S engine?


M235i < OG M2 < M2C
Not an M < Kind of an M < True M?
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      09-21-2019, 12:53 PM   #82
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what makes an M-car an M-car?
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      09-21-2019, 01:24 PM   #83
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      09-21-2019, 02:07 PM   #84
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I was at BMWCCA’s M car Days last weekend. We had probably 200 or so M cars there. Of that ten cars were M2s or M2Cs.

For some reason, the M2(C) got almost no attention. It was just the M2er talking to each other.

They even had car talks about several M cars but the M2 was excluded.

With every review stating that the M2(C) is the best current M car produced, I wonder why other M car owners were not interested in it?
The M2 is the best M car made for people that are more from the old school M car philosphy where it's about handling, balance and wieldability. It is not for the later generation of M car owners that got an M car for flash, exclusivity and techno-luxury. You see some of that on this thread. I have been on the Bimmerpost forum for about 15 years now and one of the common things you hear on the M3 forums from the owners is "can't afford." So many of them believe that if you bought a 1M or M2 it's because "you can't afford" an M3. They can't handle the truth that many like me, picked a smaller 1M, twice over an M3 despite being able to afford one.

People have different things that turn them on. If you care about exclusivity and want extended Corinthian Leather to feel you have something special, the M2 will not do it for you. Then there are people that care more about the car itself. If you bought the M2 for affirmation from others it will be a tough road. The M2 is a great car, but it has a few things going against it. While being a great car it is just not that different from the M4. When I see one from far away, it takes some squinting to see if M3, M4, M5, M2, M2C, M2Cs, M2... It comes in auto and manual like all the other BMWs, it has iDrive like all other BMWs, it looks close and weighs pretty much what the current M3 weighs. So the delta between all current BMWs is just much narrower than when the 1M came out. It was drastically different than the M3 in 2011. It as only offered in manual, with fixed suspension, no sunroof, first production car with air curtains used by every other car today, it was quicker from a rolling start than the heavier M3 and it came with two turbos. Not tooting 1M horn, just trying to illustrate that it was radical, controversial departure from before. The M2 is more evolution and sizing of all current BMW offerings so while it is in my opinion the best M car today (to my old school boy racer ethos) it is kinda just one of many current overlapping BMW options. Appreciation is not always instantaneous too. I remember in 2011 I was going buy an E90 M3 before the 1M came out and many were blasting the 1M for having a normal motor....it was just a 135i with a tune. While I agonized the choice online I had to listen to the 135 crowd blast the 1M as just an overpriced 135 and from the M3 crowd saying that it's for people that can't afford an M3. For me the M3 was beautiful and V8 was amazing but it was too heavy, bloated, compromised. I wanted something purer and closer to the M cars I grew up loving. I made the difficult choice on my own because I valued the smaller, lighter, more nimble, manual only, slick-top only ethos of the 1M. I remember being at the Welt waiting for my car to be delivered. I watched a young BMW rep deliver several M cars including loaded M3s and expensive M cars for about an hour before my time came. Then I walked down the stairs as he opened the car door for me and he excitedly said in his German accent.... "This is the one I would get!" I looked at him puzzled after he just delivered a million dollars worth of M cars and I said to him chuckling, "is that part of the delivery script?" And he replied a little offended......"no, no, truly....this is the one I would get for me above all the other ones." It sounded sincere and it was comforting after wanting an M3 for many years and switching to 1M basically at the last minute. I get that validation is nice but I get the joy from the car not from validation. You are lucky to have a truly great M car... enjoy it!

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      09-21-2019, 02:52 PM   #85
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I made the difficult choice on my own because I valued the smaller, lighter, more nimble, manual only, slick-top only ethos of the 1M.
Name:  VanMeel_16Dec15.jpg
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(source: here - 16 Dec 2015 - interview with former BMW M boss Frank van Meel)



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      09-21-2019, 04:05 PM   #86
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
I made the difficult choice on my own because I valued the smaller, lighter, more nimble, manual only, slick-top only ethos of the 1M.
Attachment 2146519
(source: here - 16 Dec 2015 - interview with former BMW M boss Frank van Meel)
The 1M walls video truly explains the 1M and also what the M2 are all about.

Driving fun.... period.

Notice it's not a timed event, no Nürburgring Time, no radar gun, not beating another car or all the usual stuff just a dude and riotous car! As good as it gets for us small bmw owners. Thanks for posting Artemis.
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      09-21-2019, 05:06 PM   #87
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I went to a local M meet up yesterday and my M2C got tons of attention. The cool thing with M cars is they are all awesome. It doesn't matter which one you own, you want to check all of them out.
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      09-21-2019, 05:09 PM   #88
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N55 engine is what I like. Sounds great, reliable and lighter. 1M and M2 use it, so I like it for what it is. M2C is a good car, I am sure. I Just like mine better. That's why I bough OG M2 instead of the M2C. If I want to spend 10k, 20k or 30k more, I will get a P car.

Debating about the definition of M is stupid. BMW labelled it a M2, so it's a M car. You can disrespect or disagree all you want. M2 is a M car. Period.

M3 and M4 are too big a vehicle for my liking. I want a compact sport car with tons of fun driving it. M2 fits well. Very well.
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