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      10-11-2019, 12:37 PM   #2707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDS2015 View Post
I think the gold on gold looks a little weird.
Gold-colored 763M wheels + CCB (on 2018 BMW M3 '30 Years American Edition'):











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      10-11-2019, 01:25 PM   #2708
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Just washed my car and it makes me want to tick the CCB box . I think I'm still learning towards no, but we shall see. I bet the gold wheels get filthy nasty with brake dust.
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      10-11-2019, 02:55 PM   #2709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kepler View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDS2015 View Post
I want the gold wheels, so I think I'm "stuck" with the red calipers.

I think the gold on gold looks a little weird. So I'm basing my decision on solely the colour of the calipers.
For the love of all that's good, whichever brakes you choose, do *not* choose them on the basis of color. Select the brakes that make best sense for your driving interests (or your pocket). You can always have the calipers painted to relieve any visual distress you may experience.
I know I can get calipers painted quite easily.

I'm being facetious/sarcastic... to an extent. I'm thinking that I'd rather take the 10k for CCBs and put that towards euro delivery instead (cost of the trip, etc)
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      10-11-2019, 07:41 PM   #2710
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Gaudy as hell. Horrid, actually.
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      10-11-2019, 08:20 PM   #2711
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Coleman Racing said they could make a two piece rotor and hat for 300-400 per rotor. I'm unsure at the moment about the weight. They also require all the specs to be given to them. Since there is not a factory unit, that makes things difficult.
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      10-12-2019, 08:39 AM   #2712
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While impatiently waiting for more news I was pondering why I want the interior 6MT instead of DCT.

Why would I choose 6MT when DCT is clearly superior? DCT should be the choice because "racecar". 6MT tugs on an emotional cord that's attached at a point much deeper than logic. It tugs on whimsey, childhood dreams, and days of old. Growing up mom had a 5 speed in her car and dad had a 5 speed in his truck. Playing with toys cars and trucks by myself, or with my brother, was never without the audible engine noise and gear changes. Almost 40 and my brother still makes fun of the noises I made with cars while we played as kids. Specifically relating to anytime a vehicle went airborne. The gear changes represented dreams of being older and able to drive. Race cars had to be shifted. A few arcade games allowed you to bang through the gears, even if it was only a forward and backwards motion in a single plane to get through them all. One day I was going to be a race car driver slapping through the gears. One day I would have my own car to race around. One day I would get the chance to row through the gears on a real car and apply all my knowledge collected from playing with cars and racing at the arcade. Why do I choose 6MT? Because emotion defies logic, and "racecar"
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      10-12-2019, 10:07 AM   #2713
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
Why would I choose 6MT when DCT is clearly superior?
My apologies, but your premise is horribly flawed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
Why do I choose 6MT? Because emotion defies logic, and "racecar"
Okay, you are forgiven.
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      10-12-2019, 10:14 AM   #2714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
While impatiently waiting for more news I was pondering why I want the interior 6MT instead of DCT.

Why would I choose 6MT when DCT is clearly superior? DCT should be the choice because "racecar". 6MT tugs on an emotional cord that's attached at a point much deeper than logic. It tugs on whimsey, childhood dreams, and days of old. Growing up mom had a 5 speed in her car and dad had a 5 speed in his truck. Playing with toys cars and trucks by myself, or with my brother, was never without the audible engine noise and gear changes. Almost 40 and my brother still makes fun of the noises I made with cars while we played as kids. Specifically relating to anytime a vehicle went airborne. The gear changes represented dreams of being older and able to drive. Race cars had to be shifted. A few arcade games allowed you to bang through the gears, even if it was only a forward and backwards motion in a single plane to get through them all. One day I was going to be a race car driver slapping through the gears. One day I would have my own car to race around. One day I would get the chance to row through the gears on a real car and apply all my knowledge collected from playing with cars and racing at the arcade. Why do I choose 6MT? Because emotion defies logic, and "racecar"
Quote:
Originally Posted by kepler View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
Why would I choose 6MT when DCT is clearly superior?
My apologies, but your premise is horribly flawed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
Why do I choose 6MT? Because emotion defies logic, and "racecar"
Okay, you are forgiven.
Cherish the childhood aspirations, still pulling the heart strings one by one.


As a toddler, my father regularly took me on his lap to "steer" the car upon entering/maneuvering into our garage from our driveway. Of course he held his hands discreetly at the bottom of the steering wheel while my hands were on the top part. My feet couldn't reach yet for pedals. Sweet memories. I continued this 'tradition' with my daughter: at very young age I frequently took her on my lap inside private underground garages (100% private road - no public or semi-public garages) to drive around at snail speed while she was holding the top part of the steering wheel. Needless to say that she kept on giggling, especially as mummy was a bit reluctant about this kind of thing.
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      10-12-2019, 06:44 PM   #2715
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Great video, and nice to read about other fond memories!

Last edited by medphysdave; 10-12-2019 at 10:06 PM..
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      10-12-2019, 07:07 PM   #2716
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I'm still on my M2CS brake kick. Why wouldn't BMW create a brake setup closer to something like Essex AP kit. Similar money to CCB, but caters to the track enthusiast. Why would BMW spec a heavy cast iron 400mm rotor in 19" wheels if a smaller rotor and 18" wheels are truly superior? Or is this just another parts bin situation where they created a retrofit for the CCB crowd and now might as well offer a "superior" big brake kit on other models. I would suspect that BMW would have thought about these items when creating track focused models, and chose to do what they have done instead.

The design of their larger lightweight wheels may be more thought out than simple less mass is better. A would suspect that a heavier wheel with more mass at the center could be better than a lighter wheel with more mass within the outer ring.

I'm saying that a heavier wheel would certainly reduce speed of suspension travel in all instances, but would not necessarily have an equal negative impact on rotational mass. It depends where the mass is distributed. Apply this same logic to a 400mm cast iron disc and I now question if the new discs have mass evenly distributed, or is most of the extra mass in the cast hat?

The idea of going smaller diameter on components can be an easy way to tackle weight and rotational inertia at the same time without diving into costly component design and material choice. Arguably the larger the surface area for pad and rotor the better in all instances of the same design. Smaller area can become superior with better heat dissipation, but apply that same cooling logic to a larger pad/rotor combo and it should be superior?

The BMW engineers are not a bunch of dummies. I'd like someone to chime in with any supporting or unsupportive information on the topic. Why did BMW choose a 400mm cast iron brake setup instead of creating a "superior" option to compete with CCB?

Edit:. Read an entire thread on the 2nh option. Comparing my bit of physics knowledge with some of the posts have led me to believe that the increased mass of the 2nh kit is being blown out of proportion due to the limited increase in rotational inertia due to distributed mass. The necessity for 18" wheels for tracking seems a bit dated. Larger diameter wheel with lower profile tire may offset some of the perceived negative affects.

Edit2: 19" 763M wheels seem to be just as light as a lot of 18" wheels. Rotational inertia benefit to an 18" setup seems to diminish. I can see why folks might go to an 18" wheel with aftermarket brakes that use smaller diameter discs. The average radius of the rotational mass could be close to CCB setup.

All of this still points to a 763m CCB combo, imo, still being the BEST option. Factor in CCB cost, and then cost if tracked, and the difference may be small enough that the decision should not be based upon performance. Asthetic, ego, aversion to cleaning dirty wheels are all valid reasons to check the box.

I believe I'll be in the non CCB camp, but still hoping this helps others decide.

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      10-12-2019, 10:28 PM   #2717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
I'm still on my M2CS brake kick. Why wouldn't BMW create a brake setup closer to something like Essex AP kit. Similar money to CCB, but caters to the track enthusiast.
Since BMW already offers the "superior" CCBs, they would essentially be competing against themselves by offering something different

Don't get me wrong, the Essex AP Racing kit is without a doubt a sweet setup and would be my personal preference

However, one of its' advantages on the track (no caliper piston dust boots) would actually be a disadvantage for many BMW customers (especially if their vehicle sees dusty/dirty conditions and/or salty/sandy winter environments)

The reality is that most street legal BMWs will almost always need to prioritize street use over track use (even the more "hardcore" track focused varieties)

Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
Why would BMW spec a heavy cast iron 400mm rotor in 19" wheels if a smaller rotor and 18" wheels are truly superior? Or is this just another parts bin situation where they created a retrofit for the CCB crowd and now might as well offer a "superior" big brake kit on other models.
The trend over the past few years in the auto industry has been for larger and larger diameter wheels

This has been driven mostly by consumer demand and not because larger wheels are necessarily better (they are often worse)

In the case of the 2NH brake package, I suspect it came about more or less like how you wrote

They probably took the existing gold CCB calipers painted them silver or red and gave them less expensive rotors

It should be noted, however, that it may be a little more complicated than that

For example, I have read (but not confirmed) that the CCBs have different caliper pistons and a different master cylinder

Also, a vehicle equipped with CCBs from the factory may have different electronic programming, as well

Anyhow, having a smaller rotor in an 18" wheel is not necessarily better than having a larger rotor in a 19" wheel

There are so many other factors to consider than just the weight (# of pistons, pad shape/size, thermal capacity/management of the rotors, materials used, etc.)

In the case of the two brake systems currently available from the factory for the M2C, I would argue that the larger 2NH brakes are better for the track (road course)

Although they are heavier, the 6 piston front and 4 piston rear calipers have much larger pads and the larger rotors can handle considerably more heat

Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
Apply this same logic to a 400mm cast iron disc and I now question if the new discs have mass evenly distributed, or is most of the extra mass in the cast hat?
Most of the mass is in the disc

BTW, the design itself (I think by SHW) is actually pretty interesting

The hat is aluminum and the rotor is connected via pins that have been cast into the hat

In most two piece designs, the rotor is typically bolted directly to holes in the hat

Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
Why did BMW choose a 400mm cast iron brake setup instead of creating a "superior" option to compete with CCB?
Primarily cost
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      10-13-2019, 07:07 AM   #2718
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Primarily cost
I saw a documentary about the design of the 90's 8-series. The board had to decide if they would take the 10 dollar "lightweight" bolt on the fuel tank or the 2 dollar "regular" bolt. Very serious discussions ending up with the two dollar one

I remember that they only needed one... not a hundred.

BMW, all about the money. Business!!!
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      10-13-2019, 09:07 AM   #2719
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I saw a documentary about the design of the 90's 8-series. The board had to decide if they would take the 10 dollar "lightweight" bolt on the fuel tank or the 2 dollar "regular" bolt. Very serious discussions ending up with the two dollar one
I remember that they only needed one... not a hundred.
BMW, all about the money. Business!!!
Nostalgia - from the BMW 1M days:
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About Xenon lights instead of halogen lights:
"It was a plan of BMW to bring the 1M Coupe with halogen headlights and not with Xenonlights as standard equipment, because they wanted to reduce the price under the magic line of 50.000 Euro. So the nearly ready 1M with the halogen lights came to the acceptance test (TÜV) and failed. Why ? Because the parking lights of the halogen headlights where too much inwards (because of the wider fenders the 1M got compared to the stock E82) and so BMW had to put the Xenons in as standard equipment (the parking lights are more external because of the "angel eye design" [coronas]) and the price raised to 50.500 Euro (later 51.500 Euro) [Germany]."
http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...9&postcount=92
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      10-13-2019, 12:39 PM   #2720
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd chance View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTBoss302 View Post
Primarily cost
I saw a documentary about the design of the 90's 8-series. The board had to decide if they would take the 10 dollar "lightweight" bolt on the fuel tank or the 2 dollar "regular" bolt. Very serious discussions ending up with the two dollar one

I remember that they only needed one... not a hundred.

BMW, all about the money. Business!!!
You mind sharing the name of the documentary, I'm always intrigued by the inner workings of vehicle manufacturing.

And it reminds me of the E82/E92 335i where instead using a bolt, which would incur a cost per vehicle, they welded the ring gear to the diff, making it virtually impossible to install an aftermarket LSD into the pumpkin bell housing.

A total nightmare for any enthusiast (like me) who wanted to install an LSD but hey, it saved the bean counters a buck - literally


https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305069
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      10-13-2019, 01:35 PM   #2721
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You mind sharing the name of the documentary, I'm always intrigued by the inner workings of vehicle manufacturing.

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305069
Sorry, saw it a few years ago (8 to 10)... can't remember if it was on the net or on TV (probably). No idea what the title was
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      10-15-2019, 02:03 PM   #2722
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For those that want CCB there are some common recommendations to greatly increase life expectancy.

1. 3rd gen discs seem to vastly superior to previous generations to the point that a lot of negative experiences are associated with pre 2014 tech. Cold bite seems to be less of an issue. Wet discs is an issue regardless and driver needs to always keep this in mind. Wet roads, or coming out of a car wash.
2. Heat kills the discs and needs to be kept in check.
3. Replace pads at 50% wear as the pads act as a heat sink for the discs.
4. Run the stock pads on and off the track. There are track pads for CCB but they do increase wear. Same 50% change interval applies.
5. Cool down laps at track events are a must.
6. Improved cooling to the brakes is going to be beneficial.
7. Use thermal paint to see what heat range you are operating within as carbon breaks down with heat.
8. Long strand carbon tech is a significant improvement over short strand. (Surface Transforms and racing brake)
9. The CCB option is a significant discount on Carbon discs if anyone wants to try them.
10. Can use BMW metal discs if desired.
11. Street use only combined with these guidelines seem to result in very little wear.
12. Run with DSC off if tracking.

My own two cents: only take your car to a tire/wheel/brake facility that is aware of what CCB discs are, and get confirmation, in writing, that they will cover any replacement of damaged discs.

Edit:. Came across this video on how the discs are made. https://www.google.com/amp/s/enginee...ic-brakes/amp/

Thermal stability (°C) 1350 (ceramic) approx. 700 (iron)
Maximum operating temperature (brake disc) (°C) 900 (ceramic) 700 (iron)

Edit: from BMW. On the race track, the M Carbon Ceramic Brake discs may be subject to oxidative wear when the discs are repeatedly heated to temperatures of 600 degrees and over due to hard braking effects. As a result, the fibers within the brake discs can burn and will up become lighter, not thinner.

Last edited by medphysdave; 10-16-2019 at 11:02 AM..
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      10-15-2019, 06:16 PM   #2723
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Is this what the CS SHOULD look like??


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      10-16-2019, 08:52 AM   #2724
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SiC is very strong and resistant to heat. However, from the video the Silicon is sucked into the disc connecting all the carbon fiber. If the fiber burns away you'll be left with a very hard semi hollow lattice. SiC good to 1600C, but carbon burns away at 1000C

Edit: On the race track, the M Carbon Ceramic Brake discs may be subject to oxidative wear when the discs are repeatedly heated to temperatures of 600 degrees and over due to hard braking effects. As a result, the fibers within the brake discs can burn and will up become lighter, not thinner.

n the conversion of PAN precursor into high-performance carbon fibers there are three stages. The first is oxidative stabilization. The polyacrylonitrile precursor is stretched and
7 simultaneously oxidized in a temperature range of 200-300C. This treatment converts thermoplastic PAN to a non-plastic cyclic or ladder compound. The second stage is called carbonization. After oxidation, the fibers are carbonized at about 1000C without tension in an inert atmosphere (normally nitrogen) for a few hours. During this process the non-carbon elements are removed as volatiles to give carbon fibers with a yield of about 50% of the mass of the original PAN. The third and last one is graphitization. In this stage depending on the type of fiber required, the fibers are treated at temperatures between 1500-3000C, which improves the ordering, and orientation of the crystallites in the direction of the fiber axis [5] [6]. 1.4 Characteristic of silicon carbide Silicon carbide is composed with strong bonds in the crystal lattice of tetrahedral carbon and silicon atoms. Each silicon atom is surrounded by four carbon atoms, and also each carbon atom with four silicon atoms. The structure consists of two identical, mutual converging layers with the closest arranging, when one layer consist silicon atoms and the second one carbon atoms. This produces a very hard and strong material. Silicon carbide is resistant to any acids or alkalis or molten salts up to 800°C. In air, SiC forms a protective silicon oxide coating at 1200°C and is able to be used up to 1600°C. The high thermal conductivity coupled with low thermal expansion and high strength give this material exceptional thermal shock resistant qualities. Silicon carbide ceramics with little or no grain boundary impurities maintain their strength to very high temperatures, approaching 1600°C with no strength loss [7] [8]

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      10-17-2019, 02:51 PM   #2725
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Will the M2 CS be at the LA Auto Show next month?
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      10-17-2019, 03:05 PM   #2726
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Will the M2 CS be at the LA Auto Show next month?
That's supposed to be when the avg Joe gets to finally gaze upon the greatness or color fiasco.
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      10-17-2019, 03:14 PM   #2727
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I've had some time off and clearly spent some of that time pondering CCB. I tried like hell to convince myself to check the box, but I just don't think it makes sense for me. Keeping the rotors below 600c during track days would be very difficult, and this seems to be the start of the carbon oxidation.

One could always get the 2nh option and try to convince standard transforms to do a run of discs. This would likely run more than the BMW CCB option ~12k, but the rotors are better, last longer, and can be refurbed for $600ea. That would make CCB a reasonable consumable cost after original purchase for those that like CCB.

I'm curious what others are thinking they will go with???
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      10-17-2019, 03:22 PM   #2728
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That's supposed to be when the avg Joe gets to finally gaze upon the greatness or color fiasco.
I'll be there gazing apon its Strumf greatness.
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