[M2_hitam]

Hi guys,

i have a little problem with my car tuning result, right now my mod list is :

- ER Catless downpipe
- Forge Intercooler upgrade
- Forge Chargepipe
- K&N Drop in filter
- Spark plug upgrade

So i tried to use BM3 OTS Map Stage 1 & 2, the dyno result is kinda weird, i don't know why my car always have the same power and torque at 5000RPM to redline, even the stock tune have a better result at 5500 - 6800 RPM.

Here is the dyno result Stage 2 OTS VS Stock tune.


as you can see the dyno graphic crossing the line (beetween stock vs OTS) at 5000RPM to 6800RPM.

I also trying to custom tune my car, and the symtomps always at 5000rpm the power will drop like a stock tune.

Below is Dyno result Custom tune VS Stock tune


at 5000RPM, the engine always holding back.

the IAT is the same around 120F, Boost level also the same beetween OTS VS Stock and Custom VS Stock. NO BOOST LEAK.

The OTS & Custome tune have the same boost pressure characteristic. Meanwhile the Stock tune have a lower boost pressure and tappered down when it reach the redline.

The timing ignition on stock tune is more advance because the lower boost pressure

from the graph it seems something holding my engine at 5000RPM, is there any thing i should check or change so it not holding the power?

any input will helps.

Thank you

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by M2_hitam

Hi guys,

i have a little problem with my car tuning result, right now my mod list is :

- ER Catless downpipe
- Forge Intercooler upgrade
- Forge Chargepipe
- K&N Drop in filter
- Spark plug upgrade

So i tried to use BM3 OTS Map Stage 1 & 2, the dyno result is kinda weird, i don't know why my car always have the same power and torque at 5000RPM to redline, even the stock tune have a better result at 5500 - 6800 RPM.

Here is the dyno result Stage 2 OTS VS Stock tune.
Attachment 3062060

as you can see the dyno graphic crossing the line (beetween stock vs OTS) at 5000RPM to 6800RPM.

I also trying to custom tune my car, and the symtomps always at 5000rpm the power will drop like a stock tune.

Below is Dyno result Custom tune VS Stock tune
Attachment 3062059

at 5000RPM, the engine always holding back.

the IAT is the same around 120F, Boost level also the same beetween OTS VS Stock and Custom VS Stock. NO BOOST LEAK.

The OTS & Custome tune have the same boost pressure characteristic. Meanwhile the Stock tune have a lower boost pressure and tappered down when it reach the redline.

The timing ignition on stock tune is more advance because the lower boost pressure

from the graph it seems something holding my engine at 5000RPM, is there any thing i should check or change so it not holding the power?

any input will helps.

Thank you

Your IAT's are just too high and you're losing power at high RPM because of it.

The intercooler is garbage, and I'm sorry you spent money on it. Depending on Ambient temps (I'm seeing here, your region, it should be around 83F?) 120F IAT is terrible. Your car is already reducing timing and losing power past 110F. You'll need a new intercooler before you do anything: if you don't want to take off the bumper, the biggest you can fit without modification is the CSF.

If you want the best, a Race core/Slim profile core will be your best bet. VRSF Race/MAD Race/ER/Wagner EVO 3 (I would buy them in that order)

So outside of your timing being pulled at higher RPM because of the high temps, you're also working through a bottleneck. You'll want to upgrade your inlet to the MST Version 2 inlet. The inlet on it's own is worth about 10WHP past 6000RPM.

Fix those two, and you can make as much as 370WHP at redline - but the turbo isn't really sized appropriately for this range, which means you'll generate a lot of heat (hence why the IC is so important)

Edit: while it's not a "power mod" I recommend upgrading the Diverter valve when you do the inlet. They are in the same location, so you'll save on labor. It improves throttle response and helps you hold more boost.

[M2_hitam]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Your IAT's are just too high and you're losing power at high RPM because of it.

The intercooler is garbage, and I'm sorry you spent money on it. Depending on Ambient temps (I'm seeing here, your region, it should be around 83F?) 120F IAT is terrible. Your car is already reducing timing and losing power past 110F. You'll need a new intercooler before you do anything: if you don't want to take off the bumper, the biggest you can fit without modification is the CSF.

If you want the best, a Race core/Slim profile core will be your best bet. VRSF Race/MAD Race/ER/Wagner EVO 3 (I would buy them in that order)

So outside of your timing being pulled at higher RPM because of the high temps, you're also working through a bottleneck. You'll want to upgrade your inlet to the MST Version 2 inlet. The inlet on it's own is worth about 10WHP past 6000RPM.

Fix those two, and you can make as much as 370WHP at redline - but the turbo isn't really sized appropriately for this range, which means you'll generate a lot of heat (hence why the IC is so important)

Edit: while it's not a "power mod" I recommend upgrading the Diverter valve when you do the inlet. They are in the same location, so you'll save on labor. It improves throttle response and helps you hold more boost.

Hi,

Thank for the input, i never thought the problem is intercooler. i will take a look at it

[shaneguags]

Originally Posted by M2_hitam

Hi,

Thank for the input, i never thought the problem is intercooler. i will take a look at it

I recommend switching to the 6.5 inch Wagner Evo III intercooler kit. The intercooler is the best and light weight in comparison to the 7 inch CSF race intercooler. The kit also comes with a charge pipe and boost pipe.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by shaneguags

I recommend switching to the 6.5 inch Wagner Evo III intercooler kit. The intercooler is the best and light weight in comparison to the 7 inch CSF race intercooler. The kit also comes with a charge pipe and boost pipe.

I don’t think that this is true. It’s pretty much the same weight as the VRSF / MAD race, and it’s x3 more expensive and from what I’ve seen, doesn’t cool as well. Yeah it comes with the extra hardware, but it’s more involved on its install.

[shaneguags]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I don’t think that this is true. It’s pretty much the same weight as the VRSF / MAD race, and it’s x3 more expensive and from what I’ve seen, doesn’t cool as well. Yeah it comes with the extra hardware, but it’s more involved on its install.

in 5th gear it was proven to keep consistent IATs with the CSF increasing 10F. It has better better cooling and it is 5-10lb less in weight. Me having a big turbo build, it was a no brainer. I guess if you’re not big turbo or tracking, it may not be needed

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by shaneguags

in 5th gear it was proven to keep consistent IATs with the CSF increasing 10F. It has better better cooling and it is 5-10lb less in weight. Me having a big turbo build, it was a no brainer. I guess if you’re not big turbo or tracking, it may not be needed

I’ll agree it cools better than the CSF, I don’t believe it cools better than the VRSF Race. The CFS is only 8” tall and 5.5 deep - the EVO3 is 13” tall and 7” deep - it has more surface area, so all else being equal it should.

[shaneguags]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I’ll agree it cools better than the CSF, I don’t believe it cools better than the VRSF Race. The CFS is only 8” tall and 5.5 deep - the EVO3 is 13” tall and 7” deep - it has more surface area, so all else being equal it should.

I’m pretty sure I read it does better than the VRSF one. I saw the comparison on another forum that you previously had written on. pretty sure the VRSF one is much heavier too from what I heard.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by shaneguags

I’m pretty sure I read it does better than the VRSF one. I saw the comparison on another forum that you previously had written on. pretty sure the VRSF one is much heavier too from what I heard.

I have the VRSF R - it’s 33lb If I remember correctly. The Evo 3 is almost 35lb, but I could be wrong. It’s also taller, meaning it will possibly block more of the radiator, and keep the weight higher up (insignificant)

And no, the VRSF actually does cool better. I’ll link you to the thread and logs again. On a Stage 2+ car (stock Turbo) it was 15F above ambient. On a stage 2 car 5-10F - and this is consistently back to back runs.

The Evo 3 on stage 2 had one hero run and then was 20-25F over ambient consistently.

The reason I’m making the distinction is because the stock turbo generates massive heat past 5800RPM because it’s out of its efficiency range. Add this in to less internal surface area because of its Tube and Fin construction, it will not be as efficient at shedding heat as a bar and plate style IC

I try not to get into this too much anymore, because no one listens anyhow, but I’ll find the thread.

[AmuroRay]

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...5&postcount=49

Comparison here.

If it can’t perform on the street, it’s not going to perform on the track - street performance is indicative of track performance.

The Evo 2 displayed poor IAT control on the street, and no surprise, on the track also.

The ATM did better on the street, and also on the track. This is also despite more weight and less fin density.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1518971

[shaneguags]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I have the VRSF R - it’s 33lb If I remember correctly. The Evo 3 is almost 35lb, but I could be wrong. It’s also taller, meaning it will possibly block more of the radiator, and keep the weight higher up (insignificant)

And no, the VRSF actually does cool better. I’ll link you to the thread and logs again. On a Stage 2+ car (stock Turbo) it was 15F above ambient. On a stage 2 car 5-10F - and this is consistently back to back runs.

The Evo 3 on stage 2 had one hero run and then was 20-25F over ambient consistently.

The reason I’m making the distinction is because the stock turbo generates massive heat past 5800RPM because it’s out of its efficiency range. Add this in to less internal surface area because of its Tube and Fin construction, it will not be as efficient at shedding heat as a bar and plate style IC

I try not to get into this too much anymore, because no one listens anyhow, but I’ll find the thread.

on the website it says that the Evo III is 13.7kg (30.2lbs). I also don’t think they sell the 7.5 version for the M2 anymore. As for design, tube and fin designs are typically more efficent with cooling as what I read, and are the reasoning to lower weight.

[shaneguags]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showpost.php?p=28776665&postcount=49

Comparison here.

If it can’t perform on the street, it’s not going to perform on the track - street performance is indicative of track performance.

The Evo 2 displayed poor IAT control on the street, and no surprise, on the track also.

The ATM did better on the street, and also on the track. This is also despite more weight and less fin density.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1518971

I’m not talking about the Evo II, I was comparing the Evo III

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by shaneguags

on the website it says that the Evo III is 13.7kg (30.2lbs). I also don’t think they sell the 7.5 version for the M2 anymore. As for design, tube and fin designs are typically more efficent with cooling as what I read, and are the reasoning to lower weight.

Yeah, that’s not true. Just marketing nonsense. Weight is actually good, it allows the intercooler to have more capacity to hold he before it starts increasing IATs. There are limitations, like material quality, and then there is the need to dissipate the heat, which is were surface area comes in. Tune and Fin have less surface area internally so they don’t dissipate as fast. Take a look at the track test of the Evo 2 vs ATM.

The EvO is physically larger and has more external fin density, is lighter and still performs worse.

Originally Posted by shaneguags

I’m not talking about the Evo II, I was comparing the Evo III

Me too. The point is, if an intercooler can’t function well on the street it won’t on the track. Read the link in my previous post, I broke down the Evo 3 vs the VRSF

I’m also aware that there is a Pure Stage 3 N55 at 24/25 PSI with stable IATs on a VRSF, but it’s a E chassis, otherwise almost the same thing we have.

[shaneguags]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Me too. The point is, if an intercooler can’t function well on the street it won’t on the track. Read the link in my previous post, I broke down the Evo 3 vs the VRSF

I’m also aware that there is a Pure Stage 3 N55 at 24/25 PSI with stable IATs on a VRSF, but it’s a E chassis, otherwise almost the same thing we have.

After reading the forum, it seems that there was only one testing and not much data comparison. I think it would probably be more accuarate if the same car with a big turbo setup were to run both intercoolers. It would have less variables effecting it. Also, factors like weather, boost, and other performance parts can change IAT. My car is running 26 PSI making 660whp and usually stays around 124F depending on the weather (I live in Tampa, FL) and if I’m doing pulls on the street. Also, this is street driving only not tracking.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by shaneguags

After reading the forum, it seems that there was only one testing and not much data comparison. I think it would probably be more accuarate if the same car with a big turbo setup were to run both intercoolers. It would have less variables effecting it. Also, factors like weather, boost, and other performance parts can change IAT. My car is running 26 PSI making 660whp and usually stays around 238-242F depending on the weather (I live in Tampa, FL) and if I’m doing pulls on the street. Also, this is street driving only not tracking.

I live around the area too, but that is the oil temp, not the ambient air temp. I wish I still had as much zeal for it like I used to, but I got married this year, and just brought my first blessing into the world, with all the new stuff I’ve put the car on the back burner and who knows when my I’ll ever get around to it. I would love to make it just a fun car for the track like Sebring and the one being built off I4.

Post a log when you have a chance.

Edit: 124F is higher than you’ll want on pump, but at what ambient?

[shaneguags]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I live around the area too, but that is the oil temp, not the ambient air temp. I wish I still had as much zeal for it like I used to, but I got married this year, and just brought my first blessing into the world, with all the new stuff I’ve put the car on the back burner and who knows when my I’ll ever get around to it. I would love to make it just a fun car for the track like Sebring and the one being built off I4.

Post a log when you have a chance.

Edit: 124F is higher than you’ll want on pump, but at what ambient?

my bad, I’m actually forgetting now what it was. I have a P3 gauge on my car but it’s been awhile since I drove it due to parts being installed. I think it’s 124-128F ? not sure if that sounds right. I’m on an E60 blend by the way. Maybe it was 116-118F, I’m honestly forgetting the numbers. It’s been awhile since I looked at them. I also have a turbo blanket and exhaust manifold blanket to help with IATs.

And as for your car build, I feel that. I currently go to college and barely have time to keep up with the car. I been working full time while taking five classes and we keep trying to dial in the tune. I also have lot of new parts have been getting installed in preparation for Bimmer Invasion. I probably have like 20 parts that are being added but at the same time I forget I own an M2, because I barely get to drive it.

[AmuroRay]

Travel the world and track it, that’s my advice in life lol.

Also, get married, the right woman will make everything you do better.

[shaneguags]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Travel the world and track it, that’s my advice in life lol.

Also, get married, the right woman will make everything you do better.

I do have potential plans on tracking it. Traveling is hard with school, but I’d like to think I’ve done a fair amount in the past. Also, I will not be getting married anytime soon I just turned 21 not too long ago. Hard to find love in Tampa at my age

[M2_hitam]

Hi guys,

Thank you for the detailed info (testing and data on Intercooler). i think the Evo 3 is too big for me and i just want to the direct plug n play intercooler. is there any recomendation for it? How about Wagner Competition evo 2, is that good intercooler? or there is better option?

Btw i live in Asia (Indonesia), so the ambient temperature around 97 - 104 F degree

Thank you again guys

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by M2_hitam

Hi guys,

Thank you for the detailed info (testing and data on Intercooler). i think the Evo 3 is too big for me and i just want to the direct plug n play intercooler. is there any recomendation for it? How about Wagner Competition evo 2, is that good intercooler? or there is better option?

Btw i live in Asia (Indonesia), so the ambient temperature around 97 - 104 F degree

Thank you again guys

The Evo 2 is overpriced garbage, and has terrible IAT control. Again, my recommendation is still the same:

VRSF Race, MAD Race, and even BMS Race. It will require the removal of the front bumper and but they will give you the BEST IAT control, which you’ll need based on the high ambient temps you’re seeing. They should be able to keep you within 10-15F over the ambient temps during a pull, which is pretty good.

If you can’t or won’t remove the bumper, the VRSF 6.5 competition, Do88, and CSF are the next best options. Wrap your charge pipe in gold reflective heat tape if you can as well. From what I’ve seen with the CSF, it’s within 20F+ over ambient.

[///393]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

From what I’ve seen with the CSF, it’s within 20F+ over ambient.

My CSF keeps IATs between 12-18 above ambient in my experience on the street. Monitoring temps after extended canyon runs show the same. This was consistent across ambient temps.

I haven’t monitored temps on track. BimmerLink wouldn’t cooperate last time I tried but I’ll give it another go in a couple weeks.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by wilson kop

My CSF keeps IATs between 12-18 above ambient in my experience on the street. Monitoring temps after extended canyon runs show the same. This was consistent across ambient temps.

I haven’t monitored temps on track. BimmerLink wouldn’t cooperate last time I tried but I’ll give it another go in a couple weeks.

Can you post a log? I’m open to being wrong, this would be good news for him.