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      10-16-2021, 05:52 AM   #1
Toxinz
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Question 2NH to Blue downgrade (or options)

Hey everyone, I'll just skip to the facts.

Have M2C with 2NH option and have a semi decent offer for someone who wants the 2NH brakes and willing to trade in his blue ones.

I've been debating going down to 18's for a while now and am weighing the options since the 19" tire options are quite a bit more expensive and the weight savings are attractive too + the option to run AR1 in 295 is very tempting too.

I've tried searching a bit but can't really get a definitive answer so the question I'm really asking is:

With the blue brakes, some 2piece discs and decent pads (ds1.11 or 3.12 or similar), proper fluid and brake lines - will the blue calipers survive 20-30 min sessions on track or is it a gigantic downgrade and I should be looking at alternative options for calipers of we decide to go down to 18's?

Thanks!
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      10-18-2021, 03:50 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxinz View Post
Hey everyone, I'll just skip to the facts.

Have M2C with 2NH option and have a semi decent offer for someone who wants the 2NH brakes and willing to trade in his blue ones.

I've been debating going down to 18's for a while now and am weighing the options since the 19" tire options are quite a bit more expensive and the weight savings are attractive too + the option to run AR1 in 295 is very tempting too.

I've tried searching a bit but can't really get a definitive answer so the question I'm really asking is:

With the blue brakes, some 2piece discs and decent pads (ds1.11 or 3.12 or similar), proper fluid and brake lines - will the blue calipers survive 20-30 min sessions on track or is it a gigantic downgrade and I should be looking at alternative options for calipers of we decide to go down to 18's?

Thanks!
From my point of view it's useless to downgrade to blue calipers. You will loose the thickness of the rotors (which is very importatnt for heat absorbtion) from 36 mm front to 30 mm front and 28 to 24 mm rear... also smaller pads which leada to faster wear and still you'll have outer dust seals which you have to change very often....

Sell you 2NH and buy AP Racing 5000 Pro set

Anyway there might be an option of 380x36 rotors front with different caliper brackets for 2NH with Apex 18" wheels.. I have a set od 380x36 and different brackets, tried 513m and 763m in GT4 spec, but there was almost no space between caliper and the rim. But heard Apex has more space for calipers than BMW wheels. (have that set in a box with cracked rotor, can sell it for some normal money and you would buy just new rotors for that center bells)
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      10-18-2021, 03:51 AM   #3
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depends how much you track... personally id sell him the 2Nh and get a set of AP racing...

i went from 2NH and 19 inch rims to gutting it all out and going AP Racing and 18 inch rims

the blue ones wont cut it on track regardless of what you put on it.. unless you're a casual then sure it will do the job sorta.. 30 minute sessions no chance.. you're beating on the OEM brakes now.. you're rotors will cook


here is my OG



gutted that sucker out and put in a set of these and 18s

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      10-18-2021, 03:52 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vojta89 View Post

Sell you 2NH and buy AP Racing 5000 Pro set
a wise man who agrees with me lols
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      10-20-2021, 08:59 AM   #5
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On my slightly lightened OG (3370lbs with a full tank) and stock power, I haven't had issues on track with the blue brakes running 20-30 min sessions and a cool down lap. Yes, they change color and the dust boots crack after a few track days, but they work fine with a good fluid (SRF) and track pads (Pagid RS29 or Ferodo DS3.12). Dust boots are easy to DIY and I am trying the StopTech silicone boots to see if they last longer.

Your Comp is quite a bit heavier 3600 or 3650 (if DCT) and has a bit more power. Your experience would vary. If I were you, I'd either run 19s or do the smaller rotor with the right carrier to move the caliper in and find the right wheels; or get a AP or StopTech ST60 kit.
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      10-20-2021, 07:38 PM   #6
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If the blue ones are coming to you as trade, then go ahead and try them. Especially with a good 2 piece rotor/hat, they are plenty of brake, especially as you get better. Lots of OG M2's doing just fine with them (not that we don't all lust after those AP's). Then if you don't like it you can go for the big $$ solutions.
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      10-20-2021, 10:15 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
If the blue ones are coming to you as trade, then go ahead and try them. Especially with a good 2 piece rotor/hat, they are plenty of brake, especially as you get better. Lots of OG M2's doing just fine with them (not that we don't all lust after those AP's). Then if you don't like it you can go for the big $$ solutions.
trading your 2NH for Blue ones is crazy especially if you intend to track .. the 2NH is better suited for track work
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      10-20-2021, 10:27 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxinz View Post
With the blue brakes, some 2piece discs and decent pads (ds1.11 or 3.12 or similar), proper fluid and brake lines - will the blue calipers survive 20-30 min sessions on track or is it a gigantic downgrade and I should be looking at alternative options for calipers of we decide to go down to 18's?

Thanks!
The standard blue brakes are a downgrade from the 2NH brake package with regards to tracking (just as the 2NH kit is a definite downgrade for street driving), but don't listen to anyone that tells you that they can't be made to have super fantastic performance. They have handled even heavier cars than the M2 for years, and handle plenty of tracked M2's at this very moment.

However, I do agree that a smaller, lighter BBK like the AP Racing is the better option if you're a track rat.
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      10-21-2021, 07:49 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbyjai View Post
trading your 2NH for Blue ones is crazy especially if you intend to track .. the 2NH is better suited for track work
This is quite debatable, probably most true for part-time HPDE tracking with ham-fisted (footed?) drivers like myself. The 2NH are indeed much bigger and somewhat less prone to fading, but they are HUGE porkers, with expensive pads that are rather hard to swap out and requiring 19" wheel/tire setups (even more limiting for dedicated track use). The OG brakes are more than enough, and lighter, with pads that are easier to source and swap - I don't see the 2NH being used on the racing versions. I bet that if the take-rate on CCB's had been higher they would have made 2NH an option like they did in Europe, but they had all those huge calipers sitting around, and in 'murica bigger is always better.. I think one of the best things about the 2NH is that the weight and cost of pads make a great argument to step up to the AP's - between pad costs and the fuel savings from that unsprung weight, they really pay for themselves (manmath 101 ).

And IIRC, the OP isn't just trading, he's selling the 2NH, which is probably the perfect solution.
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      10-21-2021, 11:26 AM   #10
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I have compared my brake graph with my buddy blue brake, and the delta is around 1s per lap caused by brake difference (similar tires). If you don't care about the superior brake performance and better heat management (way bigger pads and rotors), swap to blue.
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      10-21-2021, 12:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
This is quite debatable, probably most true for part-time HPDE tracking with ham-fisted (footed?) drivers like myself. The 2NH are indeed much bigger and somewhat less prone to fading, but they are HUGE porkers, with expensive pads that are rather hard to swap out and requiring 19" wheel/tire setups (even more limiting for dedicated track use).
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that the sole point of the 2NH package was for significantly decreased fade under hard use, and that it doesn't increase the braking force at all, and actually decreases it by virtue of a larger swept area.

Is that your understanding, or am I missing something?
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      10-21-2021, 05:14 PM   #12
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Let me just clear the situation up...

I'm being offered ~2900$ + blue brakes that need new discs and pads pretty soon for my 2NH set. I think I'll just go for it and see if the blue brakes become a problem. I absolutely want to run 18's just for the AR1 that I can get dirt cheap here ... And I mean dirt cheap (like 800$ for a set of 265F/295R) so I'm dead seat on 18's anyway... Just trying to figure out in advance should I already start planning an AP kit or not.
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      10-21-2021, 07:10 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pal View Post
On my slightly lightened OG (3370lbs with a full tank) and stock power, I haven't had issues on track with the blue brakes running 20-30 min sessions and a cool down lap. Yes, they change color and the dust boots crack after a few track days, but they work fine with a good fluid (SRF) and track pads (Pagid RS29 or Ferodo DS3.12). Dust boots are easy to DIY and I am trying the StopTech silicone boots to see if they last longer.

Your Comp is quite a bit heavier 3600 or 3650 (if DCT) and has a bit more power. Your experience would vary. If I were you, I'd either run 19s or do the smaller rotor with the right carrier to move the caliper in and find the right wheels; or get a AP or StopTech ST60 kit.
Do the calipers have to come off to change the dust boots? Mine are gone & was just going to leave them till rebuild, I've since bought titanium shims which supposedly reduce heat transfer from pad backing plate to pistons.

Agree with your assessment of the blue brakes, good fluid/pads (I use RSL29) plus I've removed the dust shields (but kept a small part of the bottom to protect ball joints from radiating heat) & have GT3 air scoops, mine last 20min sessions going pretty hard on RE71RS/A052.
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      10-21-2021, 08:35 PM   #14
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My blue (now black) calipers have been great with no issues. PFC08 and SRF. No fade after 30 mins and 1.2G consistently, but the track does matter.
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      10-21-2021, 08:44 PM   #15
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Not sure about how specific the design was. Other than the material the pistons are made of, I think these are exactly what they use for the CCB. So I'm thinking they were engineered specific to those, and just borrowed over for 2NH use (pure conjecture here). I've not seen any data on brake torque, but usually that is not the key issue on track - anything that can lock the wheel has enough; with those huge pads and rotors, I'd say it is certainly capable of some insane torque, but that is mostly overkill. The better a driver is, the less they use brakes, and the OG M2s are really plenty with the right pads, especially with a better rotor. The 2NH will certainly eat up more heat in short spurts, with all the extra mass, but I'd expect fade would depend more on pad choice and how you use them. Not trying to say blues are better, just that OP might want to try them out before dropping 10k on APs. Personally I do like the 2NH, no doubt, but I know how much of a difference it can make losing more than 10# per wheel in unsprung/rotating mass, perhaps more like 15-20 with 18" wheels/tires factored in (ouch, my wallet just flinched).
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      10-21-2021, 10:12 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David.m View Post
Do the calipers have to come off to change the dust boots? Mine are gone & was just going to leave them till rebuild, I've since bought titanium shims which supposedly reduce heat transfer from pad backing plate to pistons.

Agree with your assessment of the blue brakes, good fluid/pads (I use RSL29) plus I've removed the dust shields (but kept a small part of the bottom to protect ball joints from radiating heat) & have GT3 air scoops, mine last 20min sessions going pretty hard on RE71RS/A052.
I don't think you can easily change the dust boots without unbolting the caliper to provide more access than you'd have with the rotor in the middle. You don't need to remove the caliper completely though, so brake lines don't need to be disconnected. Technically the bolts which hold the caliper to the knuckle are single-use-only.
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      10-21-2021, 11:51 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
Not sure about how specific the design was. Other than the material the pistons are made of, I think these are exactly what they use for the CCB. So I'm thinking they were engineered specific to those, and just borrowed over for 2NH use (pure conjecture here). I've not seen any data on brake torque, but usually that is not the key issue on track - anything that can lock the wheel has enough; with those huge pads and rotors, I'd say it is certainly capable of some insane torque, but that is mostly overkill. The better a driver is, the less they use brakes, and the OG M2s are really plenty with the right pads, especially with a better rotor. The 2NH will certainly eat up more heat in short spurts, with all the extra mass, but I'd expect fade would depend more on pad choice and how you use them. Not trying to say blues are better, just that OP might want to try them out before dropping 10k on APs. Personally I do like the 2NH, no doubt, but I know how much of a difference it can make losing more than 10# per wheel in unsprung/rotating mass, perhaps more like 15-20 with 18" wheels/tires factored in (ouch, my wallet just flinched).
if you are doing a few laps here or there... i dont disagree with you.. but if you like to track you will hit the limitation of the brakes very quickly especially if you do a lot of laps repeatedly....

its track dependent and speeds you get... also know.... better brakes allows you to brake later and being allowed to brake later ultimately results in better lap times.

theres a lot of variables ... but as someone who tracks a hell of a lot... i can exceed the limits of the blue brakes very quickly

Last edited by Robbyjai; 10-22-2021 at 01:11 AM..
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      10-22-2021, 02:23 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxinz View Post
Let me just clear the situation up...

I'm being offered ~2900$ + blue brakes that need new discs and pads pretty soon for my 2NH set. I think I'll just go for it and see if the blue brakes become a problem. I absolutely want to run 18's just for the AR1 that I can get dirt cheap here ... And I mean dirt cheap (like 800$ for a set of 265F/295R) so I'm dead seat on 18's anyway... Just trying to figure out in advance should I already start planning an AP kit or not.
That sounds as a not bad deal, here in Europe brand new set of 2NH can be bought for 3600-3800€... I guess your 2NH is already track used, that way hardly about 2800-3000€ worth. And I guess that in US where every car has 2NH it will be even bigger problem to sell them so the price would be even lower. Go for it if you get 2900$ plus blue brakes for free...

Paired with EBC floating discs or Giro discs, some good brake pads (Endless ME22 for example), braided brake lines and good brake fluid it will work for sure (and ideal also brake cooling). If they will hold by your taste, you can later paint them to whatever color that wont be changing in track use. If they will be shit for your use, you can sell them and probably not loosing too much on it.
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      10-22-2021, 08:41 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbyjai View Post
...but as someone who tracks a hell of a lot... i can exceed the limits of the blue brakes very quickly
This might make you the exception, as MANY people have been just fine with the blue brakes and the correct lines/pads/fluid for, well, years.
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      10-23-2021, 06:07 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbyjai View Post
...but as someone who tracks a hell of a lot... i can exceed the limits of the blue brakes very quickly
This might make you the exception, as MANY people have been just fine with the blue brakes and the correct lines/pads/fluid for, well, years.
Specifics would be nice to see here!
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      10-23-2021, 09:06 AM   #21
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Specifics would be nice to see here!
Oh god, there is a phonebook full of specifics on those brakes, as they have been out before the M2 on the M3/M4 cars and tracked ad nauseam. Head on over to that board and see what they can do with a HEAVIER car.
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      10-23-2021, 12:13 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2guru View Post
Specifics would be nice to see here!
Oh god, there is a phonebook full of specifics on those brakes, as they have been out before the M2 on the M3/M4 cars and tracked ad nauseam. Head on over to that board and see what they can do with a HEAVIER car.
Was wondering more about the down sides of the blues on the M2. I haven't had any issues so I was wondering what to look out for?
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