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      05-20-2020, 12:22 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
Interesting perspective from a GT4 owner. I always appreciate the Pcar owners opinions as a lot of members seem to aspire to a Pcar and BMW is an inferior stepping stone.

We must be sensitive to the M2CS being significantly pricier in other markets. I agree with all you have stated being a fellow US buyer.

I would also agree that the changes to the M2CS from C is greater than M4CS from C. This is why I'm beginning to think that the M2CS isn't overpriced. It just doesn't present much value over the M2C. The M4CS appearing nonsensical now that I'm looking at it since most options were available on the C.

Edit: As a point of reference I do frequent PorscheUS to see what is out there. It's hard for me to find a spec that I like in a color that I want. Most colors I don't find appealing. This morning I was looking a 991GTS manual with aerocup kit. List at $106k. I could probably get it under $100k. It's certified, low miles etc. I just don't see the value there between the M2CS and a used GTS that isn't exactly what I want. Especially when factoring in on-paper statistics and usability of coupe vs sportscar. I can certainly get a used 991.1S in the $80s the way I would want. I'm a value buyer. I'm driving my current car because I got a great deal and it's a good value to me. M2CS is a good value to me when shopping used 991/992 variants. If I were purchasing a used 991.1 it would have to have an original sticker in $140s and me buy it in upper $70s to low $80s with under 25k miles. Those deals are out there. The value to me being the 50% off MSRP for a low milage excellent car vs actually loving the 991.

You can do an individual paint selection with Porsche also. If you do not like the the stock color palette, you have options.
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      05-20-2020, 03:21 PM   #68
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Is the M2 CS really pricier? If I were to add all the wheels (already did) and carbon parts to my M2C--forgetting labor costs--pretty sure the costs would be similar and I still wouldn't have the adaptive suspension and interior bits, neither of which I really like but that's not the point.

For the same reasons that I jumped from a M2 to M2C, I can certainly see folks wanting the M2CS and if BMW offers the lowering springs like they did for the M3/M4 that work w/the adaptive suspension, I think we'll have a winner that most will gush over.
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      05-20-2020, 04:12 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omasou View Post
Is the M2 CS really pricier? If I were to add all the wheels (already did) and carbon parts to my M2C--forgetting labor costs--pretty sure the costs would be similar and I still wouldn't have the adaptive suspension and interior bits, neither of which I really like but that's not the point.

For the same reasons that I jumped from a M2 to M2C, I can certainly see folks wanting the M2CS and if BMW offers the lowering springs like they did for the M3/M4 that work w/the adaptive suspension, I think we'll have a winner that most will gush over.
I think a lot of the debate is whether all the expensive carbon add-ons are worth it. Or could they have repurposed a few of the C parts and come in under $80k. It really should not be priced any higher than an M4Comp, which comes in around $75kUS in base spec since it has all the same parts. Maybe the 763M wheels would get it closer to 80k, and then another $5k for exclusivity.

Another thing to note is a owner in another thread was giving advice on what to do to to set up the M2 for the track. Mentioned adding a cf hood to remove weight off the nose because it tends to understeer. Combine cf hood, lightweight wheels, and CCB and that's a bit of weight off the nose. Not saying it's meaningful, but I can start to connect the dots between real-world experience and changes BMW made with CS.
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      05-20-2020, 05:43 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
I think a lot of the debate is whether all the expensive carbon add-ons are worth it. Or could they have repurposed a few of the C parts and come in under $80k. It really should not be priced any higher than an M4Comp, which comes in around $75kUS in base spec since it has all the same parts. Maybe the 763M wheels would get it closer to 80k, and then another $5k for exclusivity.

Another thing to note is a owner in another thread was giving advice on what to do to to set up the M2 for the track. Mentioned adding a cf hood to remove weight off the nose because it tends to understeer. Combine cf hood, lightweight wheels, and CCB and that's a bit of weight off the nose. Not saying it's meaningful, but I can start to connect the dots between real-world experience and changes BMW made with CS.
Doesn't the M2C have an aluminum hood? I'd think going from a steel hood to a CF one would be significant weight savings, but going from aluminum to CF isn't going to change weight by more than a couple of pounds.

That said, lightweight wheels and CCB would likely make a huuuge difference in feel on a racetrack, as all of that weight is unsprung and rotational.
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      05-20-2020, 06:54 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by mercury26 View Post
You can do an individual paint selection with Porsche also. If you do not like the the stock color palette, you have options.
Kinda...

Here is what I mean by that. If you are looking at a 'regular' Porsche (i.e. none GT, so standard 911 / Pannie / Cayenne / Macan), then yes, technically you can select your custom color (called formally "Paint to Sample" - PtS - which used to be the case but is a misnomer now), wait a few months and get it. However, if you are looking at a limited production car (not necessarily numbered series, but limited in terms of production cycle), then for PtS you either have to be a 'VIP", or lucky (as in lottery lucky) that the PtS production window coincides with your allocation / build slot time.

I have a PtS 991.2 GT3, and while I am not a VIP, but on the back of a great relationship with the dealer, they essentially kept rolling my allocation from month to month until the PtS window opened (in this case Feb 2018 - any PtS request prior to that was rejected by PAG, and that window closed shortly thereafter). And keep in mind, when it opens, it can be as short as days, but usually a handful of weeks. It shuts with no advanced notice even to dealers - you wake up and its gone. In some cases - 991.2 GT3 RS for example - PtS was completely unavailable for the entire NA production run, didn't matter if your name was Leno or Sienfeld.

This is one reason why for the most part, PtS GT Porsches (e.g. 981 GT4s) trade significantly above sticker (unless of course that PtS was some hideous color but even then there are takers who want to look...different from the crowd).

Oh yeah, and BTW for the PtS privilege, it now (since 2018) costs $13K!!! (a 3-fold increase from year prior). Ask me how I know...

PS: If you take a look at the most recent BaT PtS (Gulf Blue) 991.2 GT3 auction, it sold at MSRP (counting 5% buyers premium) two years from new, while non PtS GT3s at this stage trade significantly at a discount.

PS2: Paint to Sample used to be literally that. you can bring a piece of your favorite drapery in ox blood red and they can create a color for you. Over the years, PAG stopped that practice and now you are relegated to choosing from a list of 'pre-approved' colors (believe it or not some are BMW colors!) - I have the PDF but it gets updated a couple of times a year. I think PAG moved away from true PtS as it was expensive. They have to run feasibility tests to ensure the color ages well on metal, plastic, carbon fiber, aluminum, etc. That feasibility testing itself takes months, hence why on GT car production you don't have the physical time for the feasibility test to complete as production would have ended by then.

PS3: to really discourage true Paint to Sample, if you did indeed want a unique color, you have to pay the $13K upfront for feasibility. If it passes feasibility test (can take up to 12 months), then you pay an ADDITIONAL $13K for your car! (i.e. your PtS just became $26K). If it does not pass feasibility you get your $13K back. And BTW, even though you paid for the feasibility and it passed, that color is now available for everyone else to chose (for the aforementioned $13K price tag), so it is not like only your car will have it exclusively. You pay for being the 'pioneer' and first adopter/trailblazer.

Hopefully this was informative. I see ppl claiming they are jumping on the Porsche wagon as the M2CS is overpriced, and I chuckle as many rarely know what is really on the opposite side of the fence (i.e. Porsche land)... Just one glimpse of the "promise land"...
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      05-20-2020, 07:15 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M1 View Post
Kinda...

Here is what I mean by that. If you are looking at a 'regular' Porsche (i.e. none GT, so standard 911 / Pannie / Cayenne / Macan), then yes, technically you can select your custom color (called formally "Paint to Sample" - PtS - which used to be the case but is a misnomer now), wait a few months and get it. However, if you are looking at a limited production car (not necessarily numbered series, but limited in terms of production cycle), then for PtS you either have to be a 'VIP", or lucky (as in lottery lucky) that the PtS production window coincides with your allocation / build slot time.

I have a PtS 991.2 GT3, and while I am not a VIP, but on the back of a great relationship with the dealer, they essentially kept rolling my allocation from month to month until the PtS window opened (in this case Feb 2018 - any PtS request prior to that was rejected by PAG, and that window closed shortly thereafter). And keep in mind, when it opens, it can be as short as days, but usually a handful of weeks. It shuts with no advanced notice even to dealers - you wake up and its gone. In some cases - 991.2 GT3 RS for example - PtS was completely unavailable for the entire NA production run, didn't matter if your name was Leno or Sienfeld.

This is one reason why for the most part, PtS GT Porsches (e.g. 981 GT4s) trade significantly above sticker (unless of course that PtS was some hideous color but even then there are takers who want to look...different from the crowd).

Oh yeah, and BTW for the PtS privilege, it now (since 2018) costs $13K!!! (a 3-fold increase from year prior). Ask me how I know...

PS: If you take a look at the most recent BaT PtS (Gulf Blue) 991.2 GT3 auction, it sold at MSRP (counting 5% buyers premium) two years from new, while non PtS GT3s at this stage trade significantly at a discount.

PS2: Paint to Sample used to be literally that. you can bring a piece of your favorite drapery in ox blood red and they can create a color for you. Over the years, PAG stopped that practice and now you are relegated to choosing from a list of 'pre-approved' colors (believe it or not some are BMW colors!) - I have the PDF but it gets updated a couple of times a year. I think PAG moved away from true PtS as it was expensive. They have to run feasibility tests to ensure the color ages well on metal, plastic, carbon fiber, aluminum, etc. That feasibility testing itself takes months, hence why on GT car production you don't have the physical time for the feasibility test to complete as production would have ended by then.

PS3: to really discourage true Paint to Sample, if you did indeed want a unique color, you have to pay the $13K upfront for feasibility. If it passes feasibility test (can take up to 12 months), then you pay an ADDITIONAL $13K for your car! (i.e. your PtS just became $26K). If it does not pass feasibility you get your $13K back. And BTW, even though you paid for the feasibility and it passed, that color is now available for everyone else to chose (for the aforementioned $13K price tag), so it is not like only your car will have it exclusively. You pay for being the 'pioneer' and first adopter/trailblazer.

Hopefully this was informative. I see ppl claiming they are jumping on the Porsche wagon as the M2CS is overpriced, and I chuckle as many rarely know what is really on the opposite side of the fence (i.e. Porsche land)... Just one glimpse of the "promise land"...
Damn, this was an excellent post!
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      05-20-2020, 07:20 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
I think a lot of the debate is whether all the expensive carbon add-ons are worth it. Or could they have repurposed a few of the C parts and come in under $80k. It really should not be priced any higher than an M4Comp, which comes in around $75kUS in base spec since it has all the same parts. Maybe the 763M wheels would get it closer to 80k, and then another $5k for exclusivity.

Another thing to note is a owner in another thread was giving advice on what to do to to set up the M2 for the track. Mentioned adding a cf hood to remove weight off the nose because it tends to understeer. Combine cf hood, lightweight wheels, and CCB and that's a bit of weight off the nose. Not saying it's meaningful, but I can start to connect the dots between real-world experience and changes BMW made with CS.
Too many people on this forum whine about what BMW should have done then whine again when they actually do it.

For example, the M2 should have had real M engine, seats and mirrors. Done M2C. Needs CR roof and power dome. Done CF roof and hood options.

Needs more HP, M4 CS hood, M4 CS spoiler, M4 CF roof (except this one is stronger, so we need to complain about the weave), CCB option and adaptive suspension. Done M2CS.

I willing to bet that BMW had the entire M2 lineup M2, M2C and M2CS planned prior to ever releasing the OG M2.

As for not "requiring" the carbon, again I'm willing to bet that once BMW bumped the engine HP they then did everything else they needed to, to reduce weight and increase down force to get the biggest delta possible between the M2C and M2CS, which we all know would only be fractions of a second but doesn't stop everyone from complaining it should be more. And unlike owners BMW knows they cannot just add the rear spoiler w/o screwing up the aero and handling and therefore had to add the front spoiler or remove weight off the front w/o removing some from the rear. So I'm thinking all of the CF is required to keep the car balanced and get the numbers and differentiators they needed for marketing.

As for track, if some one is that good they should be looking at the M2 racing instead of gutting a street car.

The funnest part of all this is that it's all an academic conversation b/c none of us will every experience the differences on the street or at a BMW DS b/c we don't have the skills of Hans Stuck to extract them or notice them. At least, I know I don't.

Last edited by omasou; 05-20-2020 at 07:39 PM..
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      05-20-2020, 07:59 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omasou View Post
if BMW offers the lowering springs like they did for the M3/M4 that work w/the adaptive suspension, I think we'll have a winner that most will gush over.
I have a feeling F80/82 HAS is compatible with the M2 CS...
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      05-20-2020, 08:57 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
I have a feeling F80/82 HAS is compatible with the M2 CS...
I agree.
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      05-20-2020, 09:19 PM   #76
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Another data point would be the Sachsenring laptimes. M4CS @ 1:34.01. M2CS 1:34.98 with 6MT. Is this the price point that folks are willing to pay for performance? Plenty of people would spend a lot of money for an extra 2s on a race track.
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      05-21-2020, 02:03 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
I have a feeling F80/82 HAS is compatible with the M2 CS...
Sorry but I'm not familiar with that one - what is the HAS?
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      05-22-2020, 09:23 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdhotwn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
I have a feeling F80/82 HAS is compatible with the M2 CS...
Sorry but I'm not familiar with that one - what is the HAS?
See post starting with FrozenGT in this thread.

BMW M-Performance H.S.A Kit M2C https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1716789
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      05-22-2020, 09:40 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omasou View Post
See post starting with FrozenGT in this thread.

BMW M-Performance H.S.A Kit M2C https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1716789
Thanks! Interesting to see it called Height Adjustable Springs to distinguish from coilover with the damper included. Seen spring kits like this called coilovers many times even when they didn't include the shock assembly. This is clearer/less confusing for sure in the end, and technically correct since a coilover should include a shock. Always something new to learn
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      04-15-2021, 10:47 PM   #80
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Not calling out any posts specifically here, but this thread had some gems to look back on now that the M2 CS is on the verge of being sold out.
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      04-15-2021, 10:51 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScullyD View Post
Not calling out any posts specifically here, but this thread had some gems to look back on now that the M2 CS is on the verge of being sold out.
I was wondering what the score was.....hard to get the CS in the USA?
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      04-15-2021, 10:54 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandt51 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScullyD View Post
Not calling out any posts specifically here, but this thread had some gems to look back on now that the M2 CS is on the verge of being sold out.
I was wondering what the score was.....hard to get the CS in the USA?
Manual M2CSs are sold out in the states. Only a handful DCTs remain.
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      04-16-2021, 11:20 AM   #83
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I wonder what will be the more popular version in the future. I mean, sure, manual transmissions are dope, I'm all about them. But the DCT is an awesome engineering marvel. I wish my X5M had it instead of the ZF8 or whatever. The F87will be the last BMW to offer the DCT I believe. That might play towards collector values....like 20-30 years from now. In the meantime, manuals! YOLO!!
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      04-16-2021, 11:32 AM   #84
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The DCT is cool, but at this point, there will always be a better DCT. See the C8 and GT500 w/ the new Tremec DCT.

At the end of the day, as the market already shows, the manual will always be more desirable for obvious reasons.
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      04-16-2021, 11:46 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScullyD View Post
Not calling out any posts specifically here, but this thread had some gems to look back on now that the M2 CS is on the verge of being sold out.
They certainly did not fly off the lots....

I think people who bought them
a) had the cash
b) wanted the car
and most importantly
c) didn't care about the "value" proposition

and let's be real here - that's the perfect buyer and there is nothing wrong with that.
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      04-16-2021, 11:48 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by mchart View Post
The DCT is cool, but at this point, there will always be a better DCT. See the C8 and GT500 w/ the new Tremec DCT.

At the end of the day, as the market already shows, the manual will always be more desirable for obvious reasons.
Having owned 2 DCT cars, I didn't like when people called them automatics because there is a difference for the better, and I was always in manual mode. However, I don't think it's enough of a difference from an auto to garner a big premium.

The 6MT, however, is a completely different experience that will soon be extinct on new cars.
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      04-16-2021, 11:52 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
They certainly did not fly off the lots....

I think people who bought them
a) had the cash
b) wanted the car
and most importantly
c) didn't care about the "value" proposition

and let's be real here - that's the perfect buyer and there is nothing wrong with that.
Selling out in 6 months is not flying off dealer lots? Thats about the cadence that 1Ms sold out. I do remember having a good 6-8 months to buy 1Ms as they appeared. I think it was definitely harder, as there was never a glut of them at any one time, but there were cars available for a longer period.
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      04-16-2021, 11:53 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfarrzhp View Post
Having owned 2 DCT cars, I didn't like when people called them automatics because there is a difference for the better, and I was always in manual mode. However, I don't think it's enough of a difference from an auto to garner a big premium.

The 6MT, however, is a completely different experience that will soon be extinct on new cars.
This car's rarity, imo, will always be measured in the US off its 407 manual cars and not based on its DCT cars. It will be treated as if its a totally different car. Thats no disrespect to people who bought a DCT car, its just reality.
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