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      07-27-2019, 08:22 AM   #133
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Here’s an update from our annual open track day: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...3&postcount=64

I'll post a more detailed track battle thread vs my Uncle’s supercharged E93 beast in the Track section of the forum.
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      07-28-2019, 10:49 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Here's an update from our annual open track day: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...8;postcount=64

I'll post a more detailed track battle thread vs my Uncle's supercharged E93 beast in the Track section of the forum.
You mentioned your possible next step is the WMI. Think twice.

If it's the more power you're seeking, the upgrade to STG2 turbo is the way to go. With WMI, the stg1 turbo becomes the bottle neck. You flow more cooler air but turbo works harder and thus hotter. Instead, STG2 turbo with WMI makes up to 500whp, no fueling, no ethanol, nothing needed. Much more powerful AND reliable than STG1 Turbo+WMI+Ethanol. With stg2, you can step back a little (450-470) and get even more consistent power.

If you use WMI for IAT cooling, it's not even necessary in your case where Ethanol or race gas have taken good care of the timing already under the IAT you're running. In addition, your oil and coolant are rock solid. True, IAT is limiting the HFM but again, for power, go back to above turbo discussion.

I've never seen any track car that relies on aftermarket WMI in the long run. Reliability is a big issue. No mention all the maintenance, and proper tuning required for it to maximize its use.
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      07-29-2019, 03:31 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
You mentioned your possible next step is the WMI. Think twice.

If it's the more power you're seeking, the upgrade to STG2 turbo is the way to go. With WMI, the stg1 turbo becomes the bottle neck. You flow more cooler air but turbo works harder and thus hotter. Instead, STG2 turbo with WMI makes up to 500whp, no fueling, no ethanol, nothing needed. Much more powerful AND reliable than STG1 Turbo+WMI+Ethanol. With stg2, you can step back a little (450-470) and get even more consistent power.

If you use WMI for IAT cooling, it's not even necessary in your case where Ethanol or race gas have taken good care of the timing already under the IAT you're running. In addition, your oil and coolant are rock solid. True, IAT is limiting the HFM but again, for power, go back to above turbo discussion.

I've never seen any track car that relies on aftermarket WMI in the long run. Reliability is a big issue. No mention all the maintenance, and proper tuning required for it to maximize its use.
Thanks SeanWRT

You're right that I need to think about this twice, thrice, and another time before deciding my next step. I accomplished my goal for this year, so I have some time to contemplate before acting.

There's a bit more to this than wanting more power, so I'll expand:

IATs:
I drive the car hard enough on track that regardless of ambient, I'll likely always see IATs 50-60F higher. Because of that, I'll likely continue to run E30 (except for in the winter) to keep consistent power levels as IATs get high.

The only thing that comes to mind to drop IATs is water/meth injection. If I drop them enough, I can skip the E30.


Power/Turbo:
It would be nice to get 450+whp, but the potential drawbacks if I don't do it right are more turbo lag around town, and more heat. I understand that as power levels increase the larger turbos run cooler, but I will use every bit of additional power to the maximum on track and I inevitably will end up back to IATs being 50-60F higher than ambient, albeit with extra power.

Another drawback that I would need to be prepared to deal with is more power = more speed = more brakes = more suspension. I have Dinan HAS and front AP BBK, but I'd likely need to upgrade suspension and braking further to manage the additional speed on track. Not a bad problem to have, just a note that costs increase elsewhere on the car, as well.


Fueling:
Running E30 is definitely a balancing act. At the track, it's easy (minus having to transport and measure E85) b/c IATs are high enough that full boost/power potential isn't hit, so the HPFP never crashes.

Altho, on my 1100mi round trip drive to the track, temps dropped to 65F at one point and I had to drop my E mix to E23 to not get any drop out when simply giving the car more throttle to pass people on the interstate. My background is Chemical Engineering, so I don't really mind playing and experimenting with different fuel mixes, but it can get a bit annoying when the HPFP crashes.

If I want to run a higher E mix or run E30 in cooler temps, an XDi pump is likely needed. My gut tells me the B58 pump wouldn't be enough, but may be worth an experiment sometime.

If set up correctly, water/meth injection should remove the need to run E30 and could provide a little additional fueling if the HPFP if its on the edge of cutting out with a bigger turbo & tune.


Cooling:
This is actually my biggest issue and what needs to be addressed before anything else. What the logs don't make clear is that the M2 pulls power and short shifts when coolant is >242F and oil is >273ish F.

While the E30 was keeping power levels up while IATs were high, I was hitting coolant temps >242F pretty easily and running them up to 256F (the car goes limp mode at 260F), which is not good! The car pulling power and short shifting was slowing me down a couple seconds a lap as the engine got hotter.

I'm not really sure which direction to go with additional cooling, as the only fixes I know of have significant compromises for a daily driver that is driven hard on the track: CSF race radiator requires AC delete, getting more airflow into the nose kills the OG M2's good looks, and splitting the oil/coolant exchanger means oil heats up less quickly in winter time. I really don't want to make any of those changes.

My thought on WMI is that it would indirectly buy me more time before engine temps get up that high, by helping to keep IATs lower. Altho, I have no data from anyone in my situation to confirm that. It would just be a hope and a wish.


Overall:
Because of the improvement to IATs that WMI would provide, along with potential small gains in power, fueling, and engine temps, it made sense to me that it's the next step.

Personally, I'd rather put on a bigger turbo and tune if it addressed all the above, but I'm not sure it does in my case. Basically, I'm at a coin flip right now, and any input is appreciated!

Last edited by ZM2; 07-29-2019 at 03:47 PM..
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      07-30-2019, 02:35 AM   #136
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ZM2, let me put this the simplest way.

1) You don't need more cooling, you're running as cool as if not cooler than a W2A equipped M4 STOCK, either IAT or oil/coolant wise. 150F of IAT isn't too bad, as long as octane can handle it.
The M4 stock can't though, at least not with RON98. In 2017 summer (95~100F ambient), on track the log read 5~6 degrees up top under 155F of IAT (I wasn't even close to pushing 100%). The M4 I was on Catless DP + JB4 map0=stock tune. Should run a little cooler than stock. A break every 3~4 laps is needed to cool down the engine if it's pushed hard.

2) The only thing that gets stressed in your case is the HPFP from E30. But it's still holding up. I'd look for a good deal on B58 pump and you'll be as good a track car as a M2 gets.


I'm done for modding for quite a while, knowing the limitation is the octane and I really don't want to do anything (WMI, Ethanol, race gas, octane booster & etc) about it. You don't seem to have octane issue at this level, and true you will be able to have 20~30whp more when maxing out Dinan turbo with WMI. At cost of a hotter turbo (and thus higher oil/coolant temp), soon you'll be itching for turbo upgrade and eventually approach to 500whp territory. But there will be days when you become not so competitive. Looking at all the additional hardware, you start to miss the stock drivability and eventually think about selling the car,

Somewhere you need to draw a line, if it's the 450whp with reliability, the best combo would be STG2 turbo+B58 Pump+E30@18~19psi. STG1 turbo won't do it, WMI or not.

I drew my line at 430whp on pump gas, 365 days capable and couldn't be happier as it drives like stock.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Thanks SeanWRT

You're right that I need to think about this twice, thrice, and another time before deciding my next step. I accomplished my goal for this year, so I have some time to contemplate before acting.

There's a bit more to this than wanting more power, so I'll expand:

IATs:
I drive the car hard enough on track that regardless of ambient, I'll likely always see IATs 50-60F higher. Because of that, I'll likely continue to run E30 (except for in the winter) to keep consistent power levels as IATs get high.

The only thing that comes to mind to drop IATs is water/meth injection. If I drop them enough, I can skip the E30.


Power/Turbo:
It would be nice to get 450+whp, but the potential drawbacks if I don't do it right are more turbo lag around town, and more heat. I understand that as power levels increase the larger turbos run cooler, but I will use every bit of additional power to the maximum on track and I inevitably will end up back to IATs being 50-60F higher than ambient, albeit with extra power.

Another drawback that I would need to be prepared to deal with is more power = more speed = more brakes = more suspension. I have Dinan HAS and front AP BBK, but I'd likely need to upgrade suspension and braking further to manage the additional speed on track. Not a bad problem to have, just a note that costs increase elsewhere on the car, as well.


Fueling:
Running E30 is definitely a balancing act. At the track, it's easy (minus having to transport and measure E85) b/c IATs are high enough that full boost/power potential isn't hit, so the HPFP never crashes.

Altho, on my 1100mi round trip drive to the track, temps dropped to 65F at one point and I had to drop my E mix to E23 to not get any drop out when simply giving the car more throttle to pass people on the interstate. My background is Chemical Engineering, so I don't really mind playing and experimenting with different fuel mixes, but it can get a bit annoying when the HPFP crashes.

If I want to run a higher E mix or run E30 in cooler temps, an XDi pump is likely needed. My gut tells me the B58 pump wouldn't be enough, but may be worth an experiment sometime.

If set up correctly, water/meth injection should remove the need to run E30 and could provide a little additional fueling if the HPFP if its on the edge of cutting out with a bigger turbo & tune.


Cooling:
This is actually my biggest issue and what needs to be addressed before anything else. What the logs don't make clear is that the M2 pulls power and short shifts when coolant is >242F and oil is >273ish F.

While the E30 was keeping power levels up while IATs were high, I was hitting coolant temps >242F pretty easily and running them up to 256F (the car goes limp mode at 260F), which is not good! The car pulling power and short shifting was slowing me down a couple seconds a lap as the engine got hotter.

I'm not really sure which direction to go with additional cooling, as the only fixes I know of have significant compromises for a daily driver that is driven hard on the track: CSF race radiator requires AC delete, getting more airflow into the nose kills the OG M2's good looks, and splitting the oil/coolant exchanger means oil heats up less quickly in winter time. I really don't want to make any of those changes.

My thought on WMI is that it would indirectly buy me more time before engine temps get up that high, by helping to keep IATs lower. Altho, I have no data from anyone in my situation to confirm that. It would just be a hope and a wish.


Overall:
Because of the improvement to IATs that WMI would provide, along with potential small gains in power, fueling, and engine temps, it made sense to me that it's the next step.

Personally, I'd rather put on a bigger turbo and tune if it addressed all the above, but I'm not sure it does in my case. Basically, I'm at a coin flip right now, and any input is appreciated!
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      07-30-2019, 09:29 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
ZM2, let me put this the simplest way.

1) You don't need more cooling, you're running as cool as if not cooler than a W2A equipped M4 STOCK, either IAT or oil/coolant wise. 150F of IAT isn't too bad, as long as octane can handle it.
The M4 stock can't though, at least not with RON98. In 2017 summer (95~100F ambient), on track the log read 5~6 degrees up top under 155F of IAT (I wasn't even close to pushing 100%). The M4 I was on Catless DP + JB4 map0=stock tune. Should run a little cooler than stock. A break every 3~4 laps is needed to cool down the engine if it's pushed hard.

2) The only thing that gets stressed in your case is the HPFP from E30. But it's still holding up. I'd look for a good deal on B58 pump and you'll be as good a track car as a M2 gets.


I'm done for modding for quite a while, knowing the limitation is the octane and I really don't want to do anything (WMI, Ethanol, race gas, octane booster & etc) about it. You don't seem to have octane issue at this level, and true you will be able to have 20~30whp more when maxing out Dinan turbo with WMI. At cost of a hotter turbo (and thus higher oil/coolant temp), soon you'll be itching for turbo upgrade and eventually approach to 500whp territory. But there will be days when you become not so competitive. Looking at all the additional hardware, you start to miss the stock drivability and eventually think about selling the car,

Somewhere you need to draw a line, if it's the 450whp with reliability, the best combo would be STG2 turbo+B58 Pump+E30@18~19psi. STG1 turbo won't do it, WMI or not.

I drew my line at 430whp on pump gas, 365 days capable and couldn't be happier as it drives like stock.
SeanWRT I hear you, and your comments make sense.

I'll track down a B58 pump and test how that helps with E30+ mixes under various conditions.

Then, I'll decide if I'll try WMI with my Dinan turbo, or go with a larger turbo.

Problem is, the larger turbos coming from Europe or other non-US locations are pretty expensive to get here. That leaves me going with Pure Stg 2, but I'm pretty sure that will introduce a good bit of lag at part throttle around town even if we tune it to 430whp like your setup.
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      11-14-2019, 07:52 AM   #138
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Dragging up an old thread but seems the most logical place for my question.

When running the 2H maps can you select them from the ‘OTS maps’ section of the app or do the guys at BM3 need to add the 2H maps to the ‘My Maps’ section?

I have been advised by the bm3 guys to test the 2H map however I can’t find it to flash. Have asked in my support ticket but always handy to ask others while they are busy.
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      11-14-2019, 08:06 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daleb View Post
Dragging up an old thread but seems the most logical place for my question.

When running the 2H maps can you select them from the ‘OTS maps’ section of the app or do the guys at BM3 need to add the 2H maps to the ‘My Maps’ section?

I have been advised by the bm3 guys to test the 2H map however I can’t find it to flash. Have asked in my support ticket but always handy to ask others while they are busy.
They’ll upload 2H maps to your My Maps list.

Which 2H are they making you? Stg 2H 93 5.8?
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      11-14-2019, 08:16 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
They’ll upload 2H maps to your My Maps list.

Which 2H are they making you? Stg 2H 93 5.8?
I sent a log of v5.8 93 so I presume it will be based on that.

Also requested an e30 map as well so we will see what happens.

What version are you on?
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      11-14-2019, 08:31 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daleb View Post
I sent a log of v5.8 93 so I presume it will be based on that.

Also requested an e30 map as well so we will see what happens.

What version are you on?
I’m back to OTS Stg 2 93/E30 5.8 bc it’s a lot smoother than my Stg 2H 93/E30 5.7 maps.

I sent a couple hours worth of 5.8 logs to Halim, but they never got back to me with a 2H 5.8 map. They seemed super busy back in Sept.

Let us know how your 2H 5.8 maps work out and maybe I’ll reach back out to PTF.
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      11-14-2019, 08:57 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
I’m back to OTS Stg 2 93/E30 5.8 bc it’s a lot smoother than my Stg 2H 93/E30 5.7 maps.

I sent a couple hours worth of 5.8 logs to Halim, but they never got back to me with a 2H 5.8 map. They seemed super busy back in Sept.

Let us know how your 2H 5.8 maps work out and maybe I’ll reach back out to PTF.
V5.8 maps do feel really nice, maybe the best yet. Will be nice to build upon these with a bit more power.

Hopefully I can get 93 and e30 2H maps, fit the b58 Hpfp and run a true e30/40. I think this would be a nice setup.

Will keep you informed with the progress.
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      11-16-2019, 06:25 AM   #143
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Following on from the previous post, BM3 now don’t have 2H maps for the n55 M2.

Last edited by Daleb; 11-16-2019 at 06:47 AM..
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      11-16-2019, 07:09 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Daleb View Post
Following on from the previous post, BM3 now don’t have 2H maps for the n55 M2.
Ahh. Guess we have to go the custom tune route.
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      11-16-2019, 12:03 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daleb View Post
Following on from the previous post, BM3 now don’t have 2H maps for the n55 M2.
I’m curious if you guys think there’s any benefit to having the Dinan turbo with an OTS map?

If the map is set for a certain boost target, is any more power made with a non-stock turbo? If not, is the Dinan turbo just running slightly more efficient so temps are slightly lower, and/or does it also add slight lag if the boost target is the same as with the OEM turbo?

If no additional power is gained with a Dinan vs OEM turbo on an OTS map, it seems like only a little more hp is available with a custom tune vs the latest OTS maps before hitting limits with the HPFP.

What do you all think?
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      11-16-2019, 07:43 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
I’m curious if you guys think there’s any benefit to having the Dinan turbo with an OTS map?
For me...upgrading to Stg 1 turbo with OTS map was definitely worthwhile. I got great mid and upper range gains...on the butt dyno....post Stg 1 turbo install...using the same BM3 Stg 2 93 OTS map. I’m sure there’s a bit more power to be had with a custom tune, but I’m happy with what I’ve got. Great drivability .

Last edited by M2C AW; 04-24-2020 at 04:59 PM..
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      11-16-2019, 08:04 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2MGM View Post
For me...upgrading to Stg 1 turbo with OTS map was definitely worthwhile. I got great mid and upper range gains...on the butt dyno....post Stg 1 turbo install...using the same BM3 Stg 2 93 OTS map. I’m sure there’s lots more power to be had with a custom tune, but I’m happy with what I’ve got....lots of head room...and I can use it all on track. Great drivability too.
I hear ya. I had that feeling when I first put the Dinan turbo on, but now I’m wondering the difference bn OTS 5.8 with OEM turbo and 5.8 with the Dinan turbo.

The OTS maps keep getting better, so I’m curious what the Dinan turbo now adds on the same map vs the OEM turbo.
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      11-16-2019, 11:43 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
I hear ya. I had that feeling when I first put the Dinan turbo on, but now I’m wondering the difference bn OTS 5.8 with OEM turbo and 5.8 with the Dinan turbo.

The OTS maps keep getting better, so I’m curious what the Dinan turbo now adds on the same map vs the OEM turbo.
Your thinking is correct. With the lowered boost target, there is less need for upgraded turbo to reach the full potential of the OTS map. The gain with Dinan Turbo will be mostly on efficiency and consistency.

If you really want to max it out and get an extra 20+hp/30+tq on E30/hpfp/meth, go for a custom tune.
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      11-17-2019, 08:54 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Your thinking is correct. With the lowered boost target, there is less need for upgraded turbo to reach the full potential of the OTS map. The gain with Dinan Turbo will be mostly on efficiency and consistency.

If you really want to max it out and get an extra 20+hp/30+tq on E30/hpfp/meth, go for a custom tune.
Makes sense.

For this coming year I think I’ll go with the Evo III Comp, Pure inlet, and a custom tune to max out the Dinan turbo or HPFP, whichever comes first.

I’ll also try some summertime tricks like running 100% water with water wetter, if I can confirm our cooling system operating pressure is high enough to not boil water at 255F. And turning on Max Cool mode in BM3.

Even with all that, I suspect the custom tune will generate too much heat for a 30-45min hot summer track session. I can always dial back to OTS, and hopefully the above items will allow me to run OTS for 30-45min without temps getting too high. Right now, even OTS drives temps too high after 10-15min on a hot summer day: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...0&postcount=91

If I’m still battling too much heat after all this, I’ll have to go with a larger turbo and HPFP. That’ll be a nice bump in power, but I dread having more lag around town in stop/go traffic and part throttle applications.

Last edited by ZM2; 11-17-2019 at 09:19 AM..
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      11-17-2019, 11:03 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2MGM View Post
The only Noticeable increase in lag I experienced throughout the FBO continuum was when I swapped from the Evo 1 to the Evo 2. I bet a similar increase will be experienced when going from the Evo 2 to 3. What’s the weight on that Evo 3 btw? It’s huge...and Also wont help air flow to water radiator.
Suggest you consider WMI. I run all Oe oil/water coolers and don’t experience any high fluid temp issues...even in Texas summer heat. At least Some of that is attributable to the WMI. Plus I have zero hpfp issues..and 100 + octane fuel !
I had the same thoughts regarding the Evo III, and I still go between the pros/cons of WMI in my head. Below are the options I'm looking at, including costs to me (parts, labor since I don't have a good garage setup in the city, and selling off any replaced parts).

Evo III Comp ($1.5k)
HP Gain: 0-5hp from lower IATs and less timing pull on hot days.
Pros: 20-25F lower IATs after the first few pulls. Will the IAT/ambient temp delta be less than the 50-60F delta I experience during hot summer track sessions? Unknown, but it would certainly buy some time in keeping IATs lower.
Cons: 10lbs heavier. Reduced airflow to the radiator? Additional lag? Wagner says the Evo III has less pressure drop per mass flow than the Evo II Comp, but those numbers are constant flow bench tests and there's almost double the volume to fill, so I have to believe there will be additional lag in stop/go part throttle applications. As for the reduced radiator air flow, I think this would be a wash as the air pressure at 70-150mph should be enough to still blow right thru the IC & radiator, and if the IC is keeping IATs lower that means the air temp hitting the radiator will be lower, as well.


WMI ($1.5k upfront, $500/yr)
HP Gain: 5-10hp. I wouldn't tune for WMI and I'm already using E30 to keep power levels up on summer days, so modest hp gain.
Pros: Lower IATs give a little power bump and helps prevent or buy time from heat soak. Helps with HPFP crashing under WOT at high RPMs.
Cons: Running costs & transporting jugs of 50/50 meth/water. I'd need to go with at least 750cc to keep IATs down with higher power levels, so if I'm at an open track day that's likely 8-10gal of mix I'd need to bring with me.

Also, not a pro or con, but an observation: WMI wouldn't help with HPFP crashing when you're just cruising around and then punch it from mid RPMs in lower gears. The additional WMI fueling doesn't happen quickly enough to keep the HPFP from crashing in those situations, but when rocking down the straightaway in higher RPMs/gears WMI should help with HPFP crashing.


Pure Inlet + GFB DV ($1k)
HP Gain: 0-5hp
Pros: Less restriction, less lag, maybe slightly less heat.
Cons: More turbo noise.
The new Pure inlet pipe wasn't out when I installed the FTP inlet pipe. Should probably do these items regardless of the other work.


Custom Tune with Dinan turbo ($600)
HP Gain: 15-20hp
Pros: Good hp/$ value.
Cons: More heat. Need to implement one of the solutions above to help manage IATs. Will be on the edge of HPFP crashing by pushing more fuel.


Bigger Turbo & HPFP, Custom Tune ($5-6k)
HP Gain: 40hp. Can get more hp, but would keep the power gain lower to help keep the heat generation lower.
Pros: More power, never have to talk about HPFP's again.
Cons: Higher expense, more lag. My gut tells me I'd still need the larger IC or WMI if I'm pushing it during long, hot summer track sessions.


Air to Liquid IC conversion
Much more effective at keeping IATs in check, but more custom of a project than I'm wanting to do for a daily driver that still has some warranty left.


So, I've laid out the options, but still not quite which direction to go. The Pure Inlet + GFB DV and custom Dinan Turbo tune seem like must do's, but does the Evo III or WMI make more sense to supplement those items....?

Last edited by ZM2; 11-17-2019 at 11:28 AM..
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      11-17-2019, 09:13 PM   #151
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The only Noticeable increase in lag I experienced throughout the FBO continuum was when I swapped from the Evo 1 to the Evo 2. I bet a similar increase will be experienced when going from the Evo 2 to 3. What's the weight on that Evo 3 btw? It's huge...and Also wont help air flow to water radiator.
Suggest you consider WMI. I run all Oe oil/water coolers and don't experience any high fluid temp issues...even in Texas summer heat. At least Some of that is attributable to the WMI. Plus I have zero hpfp issues..and 100 + octane fuel !
I had the same thoughts regarding the Evo III, and I still go between the pros/cons of WMI in my head. Below are the options I'm looking at, including costs to me (parts, labor since I don't have a good garage setup in the city, and selling off any replaced parts).

Evo III Comp ($1.5k)
HP Gain: 0-5hp from lower IATs and less timing pull on hot days.
Pros: 20-25F lower IATs after the first few pulls. Will the IAT/ambient temp delta be less than the 50-60F delta I experience during hot summer track sessions? Unknown, but it would certainly buy some time in keeping IATs lower.
Cons: 10lbs heavier. Reduced airflow to the radiator? Additional lag? Wagner says the Evo III has less pressure drop per mass flow than the Evo II Comp, but those numbers are constant flow bench tests and there's almost double the volume to fill, so I have to believe there will be additional lag in stop/go part throttle applications. As for the reduced radiator air flow, I think this would be a wash as the air pressure at 70-150mph should be enough to still blow right thru the IC & radiator, and if the IC is keeping IATs lower that means the air temp hitting the radiator will be lower, as well.


WMI ($1.5k upfront, $500/yr)
HP Gain: 5-10hp. I wouldn't tune for WMI and I'm already using E30 to keep power levels up on summer days, so modest hp gain.
Pros: Lower IATs give a little power bump and helps prevent or buy time from heat soak. Helps with HPFP crashing under WOT at high RPMs.
Cons: Running costs & transporting jugs of 50/50 meth/water. I'd need to go with at least 750cc to keep IATs down with higher power levels, so if I'm at an open track day that's likely 8-10gal of mix I'd need to bring with me.

Also, not a pro or con, but an observation: WMI wouldn't help with HPFP crashing when you're just cruising around and then punch it from mid RPMs in lower gears. The additional WMI fueling doesn't happen quickly enough to keep the HPFP from crashing in those situations, but when rocking down the straightaway in higher RPMs/gears WMI should help with HPFP crashing.


Pure Inlet + GFB DV ($1k)
HP Gain: 0-5hp
Pros: Less restriction, less lag, maybe slightly less heat.
Cons: More turbo noise.
The new Pure inlet pipe wasn't out when I installed the FTP inlet pipe. Should probably do these items regardless of the other work.


Custom Tune with Dinan turbo ($600)
HP Gain: 15-20hp
Pros: Good hp/$ value.
Cons: More heat. Need to implement one of the solutions above to help manage IATs. Will be on the edge of HPFP crashing by pushing more fuel.


Bigger Turbo & HPFP, Custom Tune ($5-6k)
HP Gain: 40hp. Can get more hp, but would keep the power gain lower to help keep the heat generation lower.
Pros: More power, never have to talk about HPFP's again.
Cons: Higher expense, more lag. My gut tells me I'd still need the larger IC or WMI if I'm pushing it during long, hot summer track sessions.


Air to Liquid IC conversion
Much more effective at keeping IATs in check, but more custom of a project than I'm wanting to do for a daily driver that still has some warranty left.


So, I've laid out the options, but still not quite which direction to go. The Pure Inlet + GFB DV and custom Dinan Turbo tune seem like must do's, but does the Evo III or WMI make more sense to supplement those items....?
I like to share I have done the mods for OEM turbo and fuel system under the custom tune. The custom tune works great but it really needs the higher octane(100+) and upgraded HPFP(B58 or aftermarket ones). I have upgraded the latest Pure Inlet, DV+, Catted DP, CTS open intake, FTP charge/boost pipes and Boostane for every tank. I had run Cary's custom tune over months and finally dialed in the car but crashing HPFP in the colder temp, I was running 18.x PSI and even 17.8 still crashing. Now Cary reduced and asked me to change HPFP in order to support the higher boost.

The whole learning for me is that the latest OTS works great and you can get most out of it but if I were you I will change HPFP system before adding the custom tune because you will see the crash eventually during the tuning process. Then back to the hardware limitation on N55.

It's my 2 cents....BTW Sean has helped me the several times during this tuning process. It turns out the limitation of our N55 and it's so hard even we just want a bit more...

Thanks.
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      11-18-2019, 10:38 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by JKen_0115 View Post
I like to share I have done the mods for OEM turbo and fuel system under the custom tune. The custom tune works great but it really needs the higher octane(100+) and upgraded HPFP(B58 or aftermarket ones). I have upgraded the latest Pure Inlet, DV+, Catted DP, CTS open intake, FTP charge/boost pipes and Boostane for every tank. I had run Cary's custom tune over months and finally dialed in the car but crashing HPFP in the colder temp, I was running 18.x PSI and even 17.8 still crashing. Now Cary reduced and asked me to change HPFP in order to support the higher boost.

The whole learning for me is that the latest OTS works great and you can get most out of it but if I were you I will change HPFP system before adding the custom tune because you will see the crash eventually during the tuning process. Then back to the hardware limitation on N55.

It's my 2 cents....BTW Sean has helped me the several times during this tuning process. It turns out the limitation of our N55 and it's so hard even we just want a bit more...

Thanks.
Thanks for your input!

There's definitely some tail chasing that is a time suck as we each reach the edge of our fueling constraints and deal with issues like intake/engine cooling. That said, I've definitely learned a lot by finding these limits and devising improvements & work arounds.

I'm already used to having to dial back the tune in cold months from Stg 2 E30 to Stg 2 93, and I can certainly see how a custom tune would strain the HPFP in winter with the colder/denser air. I wouldn't want to run octane booster, so there's likely little power to be gained for me in the winter with a custom tune without upgrading the HPFP, as you explained.

Altho, I could probably squeeze a little more power from a custom tune in the summer, but you never know. Just depends on how strong each of our OEM HPFP's are.

That still takes me back to dealing with IATs & engine cooling starting with just the OTS map on hot summer track days, and trying to decide b/n the Evo III Comp and WMI pros/cons.

I don't know if there's a right answer for my case beyond just flipping a coin....

Last edited by ZM2; 11-18-2019 at 10:58 AM..
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      11-18-2019, 11:23 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
WMI ($1.5k upfront, $500/yr)
HP Gain: 5-10hp. I wouldn't tune for WMI and I'm already using E30 to keep power levels up on summer days, so modest hp gain.
Pros: Lower IATs give a little power bump and helps prevent or buy time from heat soak. Helps with HPFP crashing under WOT at high RPMs.
Cons: Running costs & transporting jugs of 50/50 meth/water. I'd need to go with at least 750cc to keep IATs down with higher power levels, so if I'm at an open track day that's likely 8-10gal of mix I'd need to bring with me.
This probably is true... though 50/50 meth/water isn't that dangerous, probably even less of a combustion risk than regular gasoline.

I'm not running 750cc myself, but I am running the system all the time in my daily driver. The WMI system I'm using only injects when the injector duty cycle is greater than 50%, and progressive after that. Under light throttle it doesn't inject
at all, and on a 20 minute commute to work in traffic I may see 3 or 4 seconds of 'On' time. The 1 gallon windshield washer reservoir lasts just over 2 tanks of daily driving use, but would certainly be drained pretty quick on track.

I'm also not sure you'd spent $500 / year on meth, but that depends on your track usage I guess. I think I paid $30 for 5 gallons of meth, and that makes about 12 gallons of 50:50 (because it's mixed by weight not volume). That's 24 tanks of gas daily driving, or about 4,800 miles. I do less than 10,000miles / year, so for me, it's less than $100 / year in meth.
Quote:
Also, not a pro or con, but an observation: WMI wouldn't help with HPFP crashing when you're just cruising around and then punch it from mid RPMs in lower gears. The additional WMI fueling doesn't happen quickly enough to keep the HPFP from crashing in those situations, but when rocking down the straightaway in higher RPMs/gears WMI should help with HPFP crashing.
I'm not convinced that this is the case... It surely depends on the WMI system you choose to install. If you're relying on a pump in the trunk with many feet between the pump and the jets then you may very well be correct, but with a system that maintains constant pressure controlled by a solenoid just inches from the jets that may not be the case at all.
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      11-19-2019, 11:07 PM   #154
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FWIW, my race shop said to go in this order to address my particular engine cooling & IAT issues: 1. Custom oil cooler 2. WMI 3. Evo III

Altho, I think I’ll do the Pure inlet pipe, GFB DV, HPFP, custom E30-40 tune, BM3 max cool mode, and 100% water with an additive in the summer to see the impact to power and coolant temps.

If I can’t keep coolant temps in check on hot summer open track days with all that, I’ll dial back to OTS and if temps still get too high, I’ll think about a custom cooling setup and/or removing the coolant/oil cross flow exchanger.

Last edited by ZM2; 11-20-2019 at 10:50 PM..
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