[BMW269]

Originally Posted by qba335i

Reason: 100k gets you a decent P-car.

But the decent P-car is slower than the M2 CSL.

[Wilson]

Originally Posted by hans007

I mean a base boxster / cayman is $50-52k (+$8-9k for a S). yes its got way less power and standard features than an M2 will. (who knows when the 2.0 turbo engine comes in how this affects this theory depending on pricing)

but for most people out there if they are going to spend $60k ish on a car, and you have a low spec porsche and a high spec 2 series.

i'd probably get the M2, but the boxster / cayman starts to enter the conversation since its in the same price bracket and that is not something BMW can compete with (the "its a porsche" factor)

Well put Hans007, only the ultimate BMW die hard would take the M2 over a Cayman, what is recognised as one of the best handling cars in the world. And as you say, the Porsche factor comes into play.

I don't have Porsche money, which is why I will take the next best thing, 2015 cant come soon enough.

[///m_oz]

That M3 though

[m3dragon]

Just a a note, even owners of the CSL bought the AC option. Only a small amount of diehards got the car without AC. Just food for thought.

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by Wilson

Well put Hans007, only the ultimate BMW die hard would take the M2 over a Cayman, what is recognised as one of the best handling cars in the world. And as you say, the Porsche factor comes into play.

I'm a diehard Porsche guy, and I'd take the 1M over a stock Cayman any day of the week and twice on Sunday. The Cayman is hugely precise, but the lack of power simply limits chassis adjustablility with the right foot. You currently need to get deep into 911 territory before you can find a Porsche as exciting as the 1M, but we'll see what they do with the Cayman GT4.

[golf_234]

I am ecstatic for this car. It is so developed in every way, pretty much a perfect bmw, brought back the driver slanted dash that made e30, e36, e46 so special, then they threw away in the e90 like it was nothing., gave us awesome color options including the terra and coral interiors. It is just a home run. Even design cues that at first everyone freaked out about, like the one piece taillights, are so spot on now that I really pick apart the design. Just great design, through and through. I mean we can already see it with the 235. and the M will crush it even further.

The E90 still looks great next to it, but when you really pick apart the way the trunk and lines look, it looks less developed than the proto M2


Also the e9x interiors were the worst bmw interiors ever. Bmw having a driver slant dash, is quintessential, in my opinion. I love this car and it is definitely my favorite sports coupe on the market and for a great value, in comparison to a lot of other options. I strongly prefer the 2 over the 4, all things considered. And definitely over the porsche. Very happy i sold my 135, because they have no question delivered for bmw enthusiasts. It is amazing. I wonder if the M2 will be limited? Does anyone know why the 1M was such a limited production car?

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by golf_234

Does anyone know why the 1M was such a limited production car?

I'm sure someone has more direct insight (comments from M GmbH), but since no one has answered your question, I'll take a crack. There are a number of factors, but I would say these are the top two:

* The 1M project was initiated by engineers within M GmbH, not a project initiated by the product group, so it had limited support by management.

* The car was engineered and built using parts from the E92 M3, which was nearing the end of its production cycle, and BMW was unwilling to sacrifice production capacity for that car to support a less expensive, and very close in performance, rival within the same company.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by M.barnes

I'll have a cayman gts please.

Your car is ready then. Starts at 75k and will be well into M4 money at delivery.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by ///m_oz

That M3 though

4 doors do not count here IMO.

And even so, it's a huge boat now.

[Wilson]

The more I see pictures of the test mule like the ones posted by Golf 234, the more I realise its going to be a long hard wait until Q4 2015.

The HP figure of 355 seems to be getting quoted a fair bit now although I doubt all but the deepest insiders have any idea where the final power figure will end up. I just hope that its closer to 400 than it is to 355. AMG are already talking about a Black series CLA / A 45 because they are saying they don't want to be underdone by anyone, and if VW are prepping their 400 HP Golf then its a fair bet that AMG Black will have 400+.

Seriously if they can get 400 out of a 2Lt IL4 then they can get at least that out of a 3Lt IL6. And yes I expect the standard punters will reply and say its not about outright power, its about low weight and balance, well I want both high output and low weight.

If that is delivered, then this car has the potential to be something very special.

[W///]

Originally Posted by Wilson

The more I see pictures of the test mule like the ones posted by Golf 234, the more I realise its going to be a long hard wait until Q4 2015.

The HP figure of 355 seems to be getting quoted a fair bit now although I doubt all but the deepest insiders have any idea where the final power figure will end up. I just hope that its closer to 400 than it is to 355. AMG are already talking about a Black series CLA / A 45 because they are saying they don't want to be underdone by anyone, and if VW are prepping their 400 HP Golf then its a fair bet that AMG Black will have 400+.

Seriously if they can get 400 out of a 2Lt IL4 then they can get at least that out of a 3Lt IL6. And yes I expect the standard punters will reply and say its not about outright power, its about low weight and balance, well I want both high output and low weight.

If that is delivered, then this car has the potential to be something very special.

I don't understand why people keep worrying about horsepower. Same thing happened with the M3/4. How many complained that 425hp was BARELY more than the V8, while the rest of us said it was going to be underrated. Look at what the M3/4s are putting down on the dyno and tell me it's not "enough".

Personally, I'm still not sure if I'm going to go F80 or M2. One of the huge reasons I decided not to pull the trigger on a new F80 is because I want to see what the M2 does, and also because I decided to keep the E92 and add a new car to it, rather than replace.

I already have a 4Runner, so I'm leaning towards not getting a sedan (I loved test driving the M4 btw). If BMW can keep the car light, rather than be concerned about horsepower, I'd be very very tempted to buy one right away when they launch.

We all know it'll have the M3/4's brakes (which are AMAZING, IMO on par with 991 brakes). I just hope they also do things like aluminum hood, CF roof and trunk, offer some crazy colors like the M3/4. I'm also expecting to have LED headlights available sooner than later (after LCI?).

My wish list (I can't believe I have to wait so long for this car!!)
Some kind of bright color M2. I'd love it if they brought Inca Orange back!!
6MT
CF roof
Cloth seats (same seats as M3/4 please)
LED headlight
HK
With all those options, $55k or less.

[Wilson]

Originally Posted by W///

I don't understand why people keep worrying about horsepower.

I don't worry about much, and least of all about things which I have no control over such as what a car manufacturer will do.

What I do expect though is that BMW with their M2 will at least keep up with the other vehicles that it competes against, such as RS3, CLA / A 45 and now the Golf R 400, ie; same weight or less and same power or more.

And I did warn that there would be the usual naysayers claiming that power isn't everything, and I agree its not everything, at the end of the day its the only thing. You might be content with 355 HP, but what exactly do you think got us to that amount of HP in the first place, it was power wars against competing manufacturers, otherwise we would still be driving V8's with only 200 HP.

[Xaoc]

Originally Posted by Wilson

And I did warn that there would be the usual naysayers claiming that power isn't everything, and I agree its not everything, at the end of the day its the only thing. You might be content with 355 HP, but what exactly do you think got us to that amount of HP in the first place, it was power wars against competing manufacturers, otherwise we would still be driving V8's with only 200 HP.

Too much power is a thing. What the hell are you going to do with a 707 HP Challenger? Or a 1600 HP GTR? That kind of power isnt usable everyday.

[rwalker]

"It will never have enough power until I can spin the wheels at the end of the straightaway in high gear."
-Mark Donahue

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Wilson

Seriously if they can get 400 out of a 2Lt IL4 then they can get at least that out of a 3Lt IL6. And yes I expect the standard punters will reply and say its not about outright power, its about low weight and balance, well I want both high output and low weight.

BMW's ability to extract higher specific output from the 3.0L I6 turbo is not what will keep the M2 below 400 HP. The M3/4 at 425 HP is the limiting factor. BMW is a company first and a car maker second. Having a less expensive M2 that out-performs the M3/4 is bad business.

We can wish for a 385+ HP engine in the M2 all day long, but it would be a coup of epic proportions if the M2 team were to sneak that by the brass and in to the market.

[Aust350z]

Power could also be irrelevant when considered in proportion to weight.

[Wilson]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

BMW's ability to extract higher specific output from the 3.0L I6 turbo is not what will keep the M2 below 400 HP. The M3/4 at 425 HP is the limiting factor. BMW is a company first and a car maker second. Having a less expensive M2 that out-performs the M3/4 is bad business.

We can wish for a 385+ HP engine in the M2 all day long, but it would be a coup of epic proportions if the M2 team were to sneak that by the brass and in to the market.

I totally agree with you, and therein lies the dilemma for BMW. Other manufacturers may not be constrained by the amount of HP in this segment at risk of bleeding sales from their own vehicles next up the chain, so they can chase the 400 HP figure.

And we all know that its far cheaper to make more power in an engine than it is to make a car significantly lighter once you reach a certain point.

I get what people are saying, if BMW can make the M2 circa 200 ~ 300 pounds lighter than the CLA / RS3 / R 400 then they might get away with 355 ~ 360 HP, but the other manufacturers are all trying the same thing to make their cars lighter as well. By early indications the R 400 is going to be a bare bones go cart and I expect the Black A45 will be the same. The TT 420 if it comes to market has the potential to make the M2 look like a horse drawn cart.

All I'm saying is I expect this M2 to handle brilliantly with near perfect balance, that's a given, it is after all an M car, but it does none the less need to compete with its competitors.

[Devon K]

The M2 doesn't need to match the power of an R400 - it will compete by giving us the complete package. It's never going to out-accelerate a Mustang GT350 or a base Vette. But they are never going to offer the same level of subjective feel - refinement, solidity, etc.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Wilson

I totally agree with you, and therein lies the dilemma for BMW. Other manufacturers may not be constrained by the amount of HP in this segment at risk of bleeding sales from their own vehicles next up the chain, so they can chase the 400 HP figure.

And we all know that its far cheaper to make more power in an engine than it is to make a car significantly lighter once you reach a certain point.

I get what people are saying, if BMW can make the M2 circa 200 ~ 300 pounds lighter than the CLA / RS3 / R 400 then they might get away with 355 ~ 360 HP, but the other manufacturers are all trying the same thing to make their cars lighter as well. By early indications the R 400 is going to be a bare bones go cart and I expect the Black A45 will be the same. The TT 420 if it comes to market has the potential to make the M2 look like a horse drawn cart.

All I'm saying is I expect this M2 to handle brilliantly with near perfect balance, that's a given, it is after all an M car, but it does none the less need to compete with its competitors.

The R400 and TT 420 are real ringers. BMW says the HP wars are over, but someone apparently forgot to tell VAG There's definitely a segment of buyer who will happily purchase an M2 that is down on power from these competitors, but there's an equally represented (maybe even larger) segment who will lean toward the car that performs better on paper (HP, 0-60, 1/4 mile, etc).

We're definitely in a transition period. Quoth Don Draper, "If you don't like what is being said, then change the conversation." BMW is trying to change the conversation by headed off in a new direction: lightness. It's a forward looking bet, for sure. It's going to cost them margins early on, but presumably, if the entire market comes around to the idea of lightness-first, they'll look like innovators. That perception will provide the ROI needed to justify the up-front expense.

As a businessman, I really appreciate companies who are willing to take bets. I'm a total Elon Musk fanboy for the same reasons. BMW is no Tesla, but of the mainstream automotive manufacturers, they are willing to take more risks than typical.

[damills]

I bet loaded it will approach $65-$70k, look at prices of M4 over prices of the 435i with M Sport package comparable options but not loaded M4, $60k 435i and $74k M4

I would like to see an improvement in the HK, possibly even with one a Harmon Karmon Surround Sound with an EQ and Logic 7, better yet a B&O option, if it sounded good I would go for it. I prefer the 2-series over the 4-series mainly because of the front headlights and vent on each side of front fender on the 4-series but that I my personal opinion only. I would take either one, I just perfer the 2-series to the 4-series. Just my preference

[Deluxx3]

I don't think there will be quite something like the e46 M3.
After all, it is my favorite BMW of all time.

[evolution80]

they better build some dedicated seats this time! (since it is going to be more expensive anyway - i want other seats than in the regular series!!!!)