[RoninX]

Originally Posted by baege

The 981CS is a much more enjoyable vehicle for me. What do I like more: visibility, compact size, nimbleness, throttle response is much more immediate and electric (vette's torque management system creates the slightest of lags), to me the flat 6 sound is better than the vette's v8 even with performance exhaust (I thought the vette sounded good, but just not distinctive like the flat 6, more like a truck than the race car sound that the CS provides), better shift action, the mid engine handling, turn in, rotational feel, the looks (subjective), the quality and feel of the interior. About the only thing the vette had over the CS was low rpm torque and a better ride (more supple and soaked up bumps better).

My c7 was a base manual with Zf1 package and performance exhaust, obviously a z51 would handle much better, but for me it wasn't the just the handling that made the car less enjoyable.

I find this thread interesting, because these are exactly the same cars that I'm considering. I currently own an E86 Z4C, and I'm thinking about the M2, C7, 981.1 Cayman, and 718 Cayman.

I had a chance to rent a couple C7s over the summer, a base model with the A8 transmission, and a Z51 with the M7 transmission. I was pleasantly surprised by how well the C7 handled. The steering seemed very precise, and the suspension very well-controlled, and the turn-in felt very sharp for a car of the Corvette's size. It did feel like a bigger car than my Z4C, and that was a downside, even though I was pretty confident that the C7 would outperform the Z4C in the twisties.

I didn't notice much of difference between the base and Z51 suspensions, but this was on public roads, with only moderately spirited driving. I did take some on-ramps and off-ramps aggressively, but nothing compared to what you would experience on the track, where I assume the Z51 would come out far ahead.

I actually noticed the slight throttle lag that you mentioned, and I thought I was imagining it at the time. With the automatic, it wasn't surprising, but with the manual I was surprised that immediate throttle response seemed less sharp than on my Z4C. This is was in sport mode, but I never really went beyond half throttle. It certainly accelerated quickly and much faster than the Z4C, even at half throttle, but the transition to acceleration seemed softer.

It wasn't so much a delay, in the sense of waiting without any acceleration, but it seemed more like an intentional decision on the part of the computer to ease into the full commanded acceleration rather than provide it all at once. I'm guessing that at full throttle, this would disappear, since I've never heard it mentioned in any review.

I also think that of all these cars, the C7 has the most striking looks. It really does look like a Ferrari from some angles, especially in Torch Red.

I found the base 981.1 Cayman to be the biggest disappointment. Before the test drive, I was pretty confident that I wanted a Cayman. However, the lack of low-end torque in city driving was disappointing. It felt noticeably slower than my Z4C in city driving, though I'm sure even the base 981.1 would be faster on the track. The caveat is that I didn't get a chance to wring it out on the highway, where the high-revving engine would have probably been a lot more fun.

I might consider a CPO 981.1 Cayman S, though I generally prefer new cars. I'll probably at least take a 981.1 CS for a test drive, to find out whether it lives up to its rave reviews.

On the Porsche forums, most of the Porschephiles are scandalized and outraged by the move from an NA flat-6 to a turbo flat-4 in the Cayman/Boxster. But 911 fans were equally upset when Porsche moved from air-cooled to water-cooled engines for the 911, so I'm keeping an open mind.

The 718 should have much more low-end torque than the 981.1, especially in the base models, so it should feel quicker in day-to-day driving. However, I am concerned with whether turbo lag will be an issue, and that could be a dealbreaker. I would need a test drive to know for certain.

Another issue with the Cayman in general is that I found the seats, especially the stiff and narrow bolstering, to be uncomfortable. The Cayman I drove had the base seats (power adjustment of seat back angle only), so maybe things would be different with the power seats. I might be able to get used to that, but I'm not sure.

As far as the M2 goes, it certainly looks like it will have enough power and torque to satisfy me, and I'm sure it will handle well. My main concern would be the weight -- hundreds of pounds heavier than the Corvette, even though the Corvette is both wider and longer -- and the possibility of turbo lag.

The other thing is that, though I think the M2 looks very good, especially in LBB, it doesn't look quite as exciting to my eyes as either the C7 or the Cayman. Also, I wonder whether the upright 2+2 seating in the M2 will feel less involving (more like the Prelude I owned before the Z4C) than a two-seater like the C7, Cayman, or Z4C.

Again, that can all be settled with a test drive.

Other factors that aren't directly related to the car itself are the dealer and especially the service experience. BMW and Porsche just seem better than Chevrolet in that department. On the other, there is a high-volume Corvette dealer about an hour from where I live that gets very good reviews on the forums, both for purchasing experience and quality of service. Still, the idea of having to drive an hour to get decent service is a downside to the C7.

We should know the price of the M2 tomorrow and the price of the 718 by the end of January, so it will be easier to weigh the pros and cons soon...

[Benzima]

Originally Posted by ILUSV

I'm trying to narrow it down as well (M2 vs. Cayman GTS, even considering a GT4). I want to grab a Cayman before they are switched to the 4-pot turbo. Owned my M135i for two years now so moving to the Cayman would be a completely different experience, the M2 not so much.

If you can find one, I would go for a Cayman GT4: the last true Porsche driver's car.

Personally, I think Porsche put the stick shift in the GT4 because it could really challenge (or go faster on a circuit) than the bigger brother 911 GT3 if it was equipped with a PDK.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

This is a valid concern to have, in terms of getting a flat 6 before they're adios - I was at my dealer yesterday and my SA was telling me they're expecting to see the 981.2 before the end of the summer, in terms of being able to sell them.
Porsche USA is having all the dealers and sales guys out to Atlanta sometime in March to test drive the facelifted cars...the assumption is that they will be headed this way en masse soon thereafter.

Cayman GT4 will remain flat 6 for some time.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Cayman GT4 will remain flat 6 for some time.

As long as they make it - and I wasn't referring to the GT4.

[baege]

[QUOTE=RoninX;19194262]

We Z4 coupe drivers come from a similar line of fabric, because a lot of your thinking is in line with mine.

I think your sense of the C7's size might wear on you more and more the longer you had it. I didn't really notice it for the first few days, but over the 3 weeks I had it, I found its size to take away from my driving fun and feeling of connection, as did lots of other things about the car. You've captured the throttle lad delay well. I have to admit I never floored my C7, so I can't directly comment on whether there is still lag, but even partial throttle response is an important part of a car's fun factor.

I also drove a base manual 981 cayman when in the order process my second 981 and found the same lack of low end torque to be a deal breaker. I agree it feels noticeably slower than a Z4 coupe with the n52 around town. Once you drive the S this concern will be out the window though, the S has much more low end torque and feels quicker than a Z4 coupe (m or not) around town.

You say you want new, well, I got a very lightly optioned 981 S (x73, manual, 20 inch Carrera S wheels, sport design steering wheel) so it cost me about the same as a medium optioned base. My Z4 coupe had the premium package and I can tell you I don't really miss all the bells and whistles it had in my stripped 981...they don't really do much for the driving experience. Of course not sure you can order a 981.1 S any longer...

As for the 718, I think turbo lag and sound will be an issue, but I have to admit I do have somewhat similar reservations about the m2. Your comments about the looks of the M2 are on point, but I think novelty will win out for me on that one given that I have had a 981 for coming on 3 years. Neither will ever look as good as Z4 coupe though


Best with the decision.

[dmboone25]

The Z4MC is probably the best car I have ever driven, when you combine fun factor, craziness, sound, etc. My dad had one for a few years and still regrets getting rid of it - thank you very much recession.

The 981 is similar, but much more surgical/civilized and not as insane. That can be good or bad depending on your point of view. I think the 981 is also just a touch more comfortable - we drove from Indianapolis down to Z-fest a couple of times at the BMW factory in South Carolina, and man were those long trips. but the twisties and whatnot made it worth it.

I am guessing the M2 will sort of split the difference between the two. It will likely have a chassis that is more prone to tail-happy driving (if the F80 is any indication), but won't be as nuts at the Z4MC.

[dammitcubs]

Man this looks so good and the price is amazeballs. I mean i was looking for a m3/m4 and i just couldn't justify the MSRP price or the BS add-on the dealers put to make the car like 80K. Can I afford it? yes. But that doesn't mean I should pay that price.

I think the M2 pricing and what you get is amazing considering all the configs we have done over the months, it sounded like 60K after options. Amazing!!!.

The bigger problem --------- I'm #4 on a waiting list and I don't know if i can wait a whole year to buy a new car. This was on my list, but slowly and slowly, I'm finding sick deals on Cayman S or Boxster S with basically fully loaded with all the stuff I want.

I feel like if i buy the M2, i'm going regret it every time a Cayman drives by. If I buy a Cayman and see that hot M2, I will also regret it.

I'm also worried about dealer markup.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by Benzima

If you can find one, I would go for a Cayman GT4: the last true Porsche driver's car.

Personally, I think Porsche put the stick shift in the GT4 because it could really challenge (or go faster on a circuit) than the bigger brother 911 GT3 if it was equipped with a PDK.

PDK alone wouldn't have made up the difference. The GT3 has a lot more horsepower, the trick e-diff, and more rubber. I think Porsche made the GT4 manual-only mostly to offset those who cried foul that the GT3 went PDK-only and genuinely to offer something for people who would rather have more involvement than that last tenth, which seems to be the guiding principle behind the expected 911R.

I do wish the GT4 had the e-diff though, mostly because the LSD is known to wear down very quickly with any amount of track use. It's been a sore spot for 996 and 997 GT3 owners forever. Alas, Porsche's e-diff only works with PDK because it's driven by the PDK pump.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Cayman GT4 will remain flat 6 for some time.

I don't see it staying NA beyond the current generation. Even if emissions, fuel economy, and performance competition from other cars are all non-issues, there won't be an NA flat 6 in Porsche's lineup to use as soon as the 991 ends production early next year, and if they're not even doing fully bespoke engines for the GT3 anymore, no way will they do it for the GT4. The only way I can see NA persisting MAYBE is if the 992 GT3 (not the upcoming 991.2 mid-cycle refresh) turns out to be NA+electric, in which case the GT4 could conceivably get that engine (possibly detuned) without the hybrid bits. Porsche already has plenty of hybrid experience with the 918 and the GT3 hybrid race cars, after all. However, the argument against that outcome is that the Porsche GT faithful are already griping that the GT3 has gotten too large and heavy, and a hybrid setup wouldn't help either of those matters.

[///M3Owner]

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere Porsche is only keeping the GT cars NA while the rest will be turbo

[W///]

Originally Posted by jphughan

I don't see it staying NA beyond the current generation. Even if emissions, fuel economy, and performance competition from other cars are all non-issues, there won't be an NA flat 6 in Porsche's lineup to use as soon as the 991 ends production early next year, and if they're not even doing fully bespoke engines for the GT3 anymore, no way will they do it for the GT4. The only way I can see NA persisting MAYBE is if the 992 GT3 (not the upcoming 991.2 mid-cycle refresh) turns out to be NA+electric, in which case the GT4 could conceivably get that engine (possibly detuned) without the hybrid bits. Porsche already has plenty of hybrid experience with the 918 and the GT3 hybrid race cars, after all. However, the argument against that outcome is that the Porsche GT faithful are already griping that the GT3 has gotten too large and heavy, and a hybrid setup wouldn't help either of those matters.

Agreed. I personally think it's all fluff what they are saying. Sooner than later, the GT cars will also go with turbos.
1) Does it makes sense to develop and engine just for a few GT cars (relatively)?
2) I know they serve different purposes, but there's no denying how freaken fast these new Carrare S' are. Bloody hell, they are keeping up with older GT3's!

If the holiest of brands, Ferrari, are going to go with turbos, then you know the end of the NA engines is near.

As for the Cayman/Boxster vs M2. I love the Porsches. But now that we know what the price for an M2 is, I know for me the price gap is pretty huge. Very interesting comparison nevertheless though. End of the road for boxer 6 engine on that platform, potentially end of the road for 6MT and RWD on the M2.

But what do I know about price. I went from wanting a stripper M2, to a stripper F80, to an Individual F80 with Competition pack

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by ///M3Owner

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere Porsche is only keeping the GT cars NA while the rest will be turbo

Andreas Preuninger indeed indicated in the interview about the GT4 with Evo that NA engines would still have a place in GT cars, but that doesn't mean that all GT cars will remain NA. See what he did there? After all, it's not even as if all past GT cars have been NA.

[Romo]

Originally Posted by baege

interesting, look forward to hearing how you like the M2 when you get it.

Thanks for your comment !

My LBB M2 ETA mid of april, I will let you know!

I suspect it will be evolutionary enhancement compared to my previous 1M, for sure ergonomics, seating position and steering character will be better compared to the CGTS ( not everybody will agree on this one with me, but than again it is something completely personal )

There are a lot of complaints about how the M2 seats are looking, but if they have the same "seating quality" as the 1M they will be perfect, they will do an excellent job!

Once again; it is not about looks, it is about performance, about bio-mechanics and ergonomics, BMW has never been beaten on those subjects.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Andreas Preuninger indeed indicated in the interview about the GT4 with Evo that NA engines would still have a place in GT cars, but that doesn't mean that all GT cars will remain NA. See what he did there? After all, it's not even as if all past GT cars have been NA.

I think we will see the NA stick it out for a while in the GT cars...perhaps they will pick one engine size and have multiple badass versions of it as you move up the GT range. They already do that with the other cars in the lineup.

[baege]

quotes like this from the top gear review make me worry about lag and my extreme sensitivity to it

"The mid-range is strong too, with a very healthy 369lb ft. Notionally that’s available from about 1500rpm, but things are fairly laggy down there From 3000 it’s truly alert and does all its asked"

[oolas3]

Originally Posted by RoninX

I find this thread interesting, because these are exactly the same cars that I'm considering. I currently own an E86 Z4C, and I'm thinking about the M2, C7, 981.1 Cayman, and 718 Cayman.

I had a chance to rent a couple C7s over the summer, a base model with the A8 transmission, and a Z51 with the M7 transmission. I was pleasantly surprised by how well the C7 handled. The steering seemed very precise, and the suspension very well-controlled, and the turn-in felt very sharp for a car of the Corvette's size. It did feel like a bigger car than my Z4C, and that was a downside, even though I was pretty confident that the C7 would outperform the Z4C in the twisties.

I didn't notice much of difference between the base and Z51 suspensions, but this was on public roads, with only moderately spirited driving. I did take some on-ramps and off-ramps aggressively, but nothing compared to what you would experience on the track, where I assume the Z51 would come out far ahead.

I actually noticed the slight throttle lag that you mentioned, and I thought I was imagining it at the time. With the automatic, it wasn't surprising, but with the manual I was surprised that immediate throttle response seemed less sharp than on my Z4C. This is was in sport mode, but I never really went beyond half throttle. It certainly accelerated quickly and much faster than the Z4C, even at half throttle, but the transition to acceleration seemed softer.

It wasn't so much a delay, in the sense of waiting without any acceleration, but it seemed more like an intentional decision on the part of the computer to ease into the full commanded acceleration rather than provide it all at once. I'm guessing that at full throttle, this would disappear, since I've never heard it mentioned in any review.

I also think that of all these cars, the C7 has the most striking looks. It really does look like a Ferrari from some angles, especially in Torch Red.

I found the base 981.1 Cayman to be the biggest disappointment. Before the test drive, I was pretty confident that I wanted a Cayman. However, the lack of low-end torque in city driving was disappointing. It felt noticeably slower than my Z4C in city driving, though I'm sure even the base 981.1 would be faster on the track. The caveat is that I didn't get a chance to wring it out on the highway, where the high-revving engine would have probably been a lot more fun.

I might consider a CPO 981.1 Cayman S, though I generally prefer new cars. I'll probably at least take a 981.1 CS for a test drive, to find out whether it lives up to its rave reviews.

On the Porsche forums, most of the Porschephiles are scandalized and outraged by the move from an NA flat-6 to a turbo flat-4 in the Cayman/Boxster. But 911 fans were equally upset when Porsche moved from air-cooled to water-cooled engines for the 911, so I'm keeping an open mind.

The 718 should have much more low-end torque than the 981.1, especially in the base models, so it should feel quicker in day-to-day driving. However, I am concerned with whether turbo lag will be an issue, and that could be a dealbreaker. I would need a test drive to know for certain.

Another issue with the Cayman in general is that I found the seats, especially the stiff and narrow bolstering, to be uncomfortable. The Cayman I drove had the base seats (power adjustment of seat back angle only), so maybe things would be different with the power seats. I might be able to get used to that, but I'm not sure.

As far as the M2 goes, it certainly looks like it will have enough power and torque to satisfy me, and I'm sure it will handle well. My main concern would be the weight -- hundreds of pounds heavier than the Corvette, even though the Corvette is both wider and longer -- and the possibility of turbo lag.

The other thing is that, though I think the M2 looks very good, especially in LBB, it doesn't look quite as exciting to my eyes as either the C7 or the Cayman. Also, I wonder whether the upright 2+2 seating in the M2 will feel less involving (more like the Prelude I owned before the Z4C) than a two-seater like the C7, Cayman, or Z4C.

Again, that can all be settled with a test drive.

Other factors that aren't directly related to the car itself are the dealer and especially the service experience. BMW and Porsche just seem better than Chevrolet in that department. On the other, there is a high-volume Corvette dealer about an hour from where I live that gets very good reviews on the forums, both for purchasing experience and quality of service. Still, the idea of having to drive an hour to get decent service is a downside to the C7.

We should know the price of the M2 tomorrow and the price of the 718 by the end of January, so it will be easier to weigh the pros and cons soon...

Check in with me when you finally decide to sell the e86. I'm potentially interested.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by ILUSV

I'm trying to narrow it down as well (M2 vs. Cayman GTS, even considering a GT4). I want to grab a Cayman before they are switched to the 4-pot turbo. Owned my M135i for two years now so moving to the Cayman would be a completely different experience, the M2 not so much.

Me too!! Looks like Boxster (718) is going first and Cayman later? Porsche website shows you can order f6 Cayman still. Saw the M2 at the auto show in Toronto today and it looks pretty nice but not Cayman nice.............
Totally different cars IMO.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by W///

Agreed. I personally think it's all fluff what they are saying. Sooner than later, the GT cars will also go with turbos.
1) Does it makes sense to develop and engine just for a few GT cars (relatively)?
2) I know they serve different purposes, but there's no denying how freaken fast these new Carrare S' are. Bloody hell, they are keeping up with older GT3's!

If the holiest of brands, Ferrari, are going to go with turbos, then you know the end of the NA engines is near.

As for the Cayman/Boxster vs M2. I love the Porsches. But now that we know what the price for an M2 is, I know for me the price gap is pretty huge. Very interesting comparison nevertheless though. End of the road for boxer 6 engine on that platform, potentially end of the road for 6MT and RWD on the M2.

But what do I know about price. I went from wanting a stripper M2, to a stripper F80, to an Individual F80 with Competition pack

M2 is $61,000 with manual and $65,000 with AT up here and there arent really any options. Comparably equipped Cayman (nav etc) would be about $75,000 up here in the great white north.

[baege]

So...for anyone who made the move from a cayman/boxster to an M2, how did that go for you?

[Romo]

Originally Posted by Romo

I`m just a step further already

I`ve traded in my 2014 Cayman GTS, and bought a M2 ETA end of April 2016.

I`ve driven the cayman GTS for 16 months, and as much as did like the sound, the in- and exterior, the awesome PCCB, I had some complaints too; I hated the sportseats +, I just coudn`t find an adequate seating position, witch resulted in a very cramped driving way.
I also disliked the way it steered, the caster gave it a strange kind of resistance in the steering feel, believe me, I tried to get used to it, but I could not, I could not become friends with this for me tiresome and annoying kind of steering. So I turned it in.

After owing an E46 M3, E92 M3, E82 1M, a quick sidestep to Porsche, I`m coming back to BMW`s F87 M2.

I guess I`m more of a Bimmer guy after all..............

Originally Posted by Romo

The Cayman GTS was indeed very refined, although only 340 HP and 380Nm of torque I had never the idea it lacked power, great PDK however it makes you a little bit lazy and also slightly disconnected feel from the car (the main reason I ordered a 6MT M2, having owned the 6MT 1M, the gearbox was just great)

Of course the car is much lighter compared to an M2, but both are great cars.

The very main reason for me to trade it in;

1 The poor seating position du to lack of upper leg support, very cramped driving

2 The steering feel, to much resistance, to much self centering, the steering needs constant attention, constant input of force while cornering, it felt like a front wheel drive car, a kind of torque steer to me. I know this is hard to believe to die hard Porsche fans, but this was the way I felt it, I`ve been told it`s steeringfeel is the reason of the used caster, with is higher than in any M-BMW, well I couldn`t get used to it, the rest is history.

Originally Posted by baege

So...for anyone who made the move from a cayman/boxster to an M2, how did that go for you?

I turned out very well I must say;


Yes I do mis the GTS on exterior, F1 sound on max revs and superb PDK, but as I said before not on lousy steering. IMHO the weakest point of the car and ruining the whole Pcar experience for me.

The M2 has an excellent turn in and far better initial steering input response compared to the 981 GTS.

My nearby future plans;

I`m not done with Porsche as you al might think, I`m waiting for the "coming soon" 718 GT4. If it will be available with PDK I will order one (plans are Mamba Green, PCCB and some other stuf), I will keep the M2 alongside the GT4

If no PDK I`ll turn in my OGM2 LBB 6MT for a M2C SO, DCT version.

[bmwtk11]

I own a 2008 987.1 S sport edition. I tested drive a 2018 M2 LCI, and I cannot give up my cayman for the M2. The reason, the engine sound and the connection. The cayman gives me a great feeling even at low speed, I can rev the engine up to 4, 5 rpms and at the speed just a little bit above legal limit. The feeling and the NA 6 engine sound is hard to be replaced.

Now I finally know why I pick the 987 over 981 and 991.1. It is about the feeling and connection.

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by bmwtk11

I own a 2008 987.1 S sport edition. I tested drive a 2018 M2 LCI, and I cannot give up my cayman for the M2. The reason, the engine sound and the connection. The cayman gives me a great feeling even at low speed, I can rev the engine up to 4, 5 rpms and at the speed just a little bit above legal limit. The feeling and the NA 6 engine sound is hard to be replaced.

Now I finally know why I pick the 987 over 981 and 991.1. It is about the feeling and connection.

Sorry but 987.1 sounds like a tractor or blender full of rocks. M2 exhaust note is far superior. Plus that vintage cayman s understeers like a pig.