[F87source]

Originally Posted by smurchill

Awesome, thanks for the info! Pretty amazing how much that ///M logo costs lol.

Another quick question while I have you, I was searching around for the E18 inverted torx bolts that fasten the strut brace and I think I finally found them as part #2 (07147270121) here: https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=51_8381

Are all 4 torqued to 56Nm + 90 degrees? I have also seen some people say the brace doesn't need to be removed to access the plugs, but it seems like it would be easier. Trying to find torque specs without newTIS is kind of a pain, although I suppose I could just pay the $30, but it's the principle of the thing!

If I get some time I'll check on ista and let you know. But I guess do whatever gives you the most access because the plug holes are slightly bent so if you strip the spark plug hole you are pretty much screwed because helicoiling it won't be easy.

[smurchill]

Originally Posted by F87source

If I get some time I'll check on ista and let you know. But I guess do whatever gives you the most access because the plug holes are slightly bent so if you strip the spark plug hole you are pretty much screwed because helicoiling it won't be easy.

Great, thanks for the info!

[F87source]

Originally Posted by smurchill

Great, thanks for the info!

No problem.

[smurchill]

Originally Posted by F87source

No problem.

Just as an update, I ordered Bosch ZR5TPP330A from FCP Euro, but received ZR5TPP330 (no A suffix). I tried searching for what the A suffix means, but couldn't find anything. There is a PDF on Bosch's site here: https://www.boschautoparts.com/en/au...gs?partId=8165 (titled Spark Plug Number System or Design Codes), but no indication of what that last 'A' might stand for. I'm assuming it is some sort of revision but based on the same design/specifications. I saw a previous comment where you mentioned a TSB about cracking and the only thing I could find was TSB SI B12 25 14, which defines switching from Bosch ZR5TPP339 to Bosch ZR5TPP330A to solve a cracked insulator issue.

I can search ZR5TPP330A images and see the 'A' stamped on the plug itself, but mine do not. The boxes also looked pretty old and beat up, which leads me to believe they were old stock.

Another interesting point is the box is labeled with a 0.032" gap and I believe OE is 0.028".

Anyway, I am returning them and I think I'm either going to order the genuine BMW replacements from FCP (because of their lifetime replacement program, I can spend the OEM money once and keep replacing them) or just order the ZR5TPP330A from somewhere else and see how they turn out.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by smurchill

Just as an update, I ordered Bosch ZR5TPP330A from FCP Euro, but received ZR5TPP330 (no A suffix). I tried searching for what the A suffix means, but couldn't find anything. There is a PDF on Bosch's site here: https://www.boschautoparts.com/en/au...gs?partId=8165 (titled Spark Plug Number System or Design Codes), but no indication of what that last 'A' might stand for. I'm assuming it is some sort of revision but based on the same design/specifications. I saw a previous comment where you mentioned a TSB about cracking and the only thing I could find was TSB SI B12 25 14, which defines switching from Bosch ZR5TPP339 to Bosch ZR5TPP330A to solve a cracked insulator issue.

I can search ZR5TPP330A images and see the 'A' stamped on the plug itself, but mine do not. The boxes also looked pretty old and beat up, which leads me to believe they were old stock.

Another interesting point is the box is labeled with a 0.032" gap and I believe OE is 0.028".

Anyway, I am returning them and I think I'm either going to order the genuine BMW replacements from FCP (because of their lifetime replacement program, I can spend the OEM money once and keep replacing them) or just order the ZR5TPP330A from somewhere else and see how they turn out.

That's weird I think FCP messed up and sent you the wrong boxes, reach out to them and see what is up.

Also the bosch plugs should be pregapped to 0.028" (but if this is not the case then I am mistaken) but if not then you will have to manually gap them down yourself.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by smurchill

Just as an update, I ordered Bosch ZR5TPP330A from FCP Euro, but received ZR5TPP330 (no A suffix). I tried searching for what the A suffix means, but couldn't find anything. There is a PDF on Bosch's site here: https://www.boschautoparts.com/en/au...gs?partId=8165 (titled Spark Plug Number System or Design Codes), but no indication of what that last 'A' might stand for. I'm assuming it is some sort of revision but based on the same design/specifications. I saw a previous comment where you mentioned a TSB about cracking and the only thing I could find was TSB SI B12 25 14, which defines switching from Bosch ZR5TPP339 to Bosch ZR5TPP330A to solve a cracked insulator issue.

I can search ZR5TPP330A images and see the 'A' stamped on the plug itself, but mine do not. The boxes also looked pretty old and beat up, which leads me to believe they were old stock.

Another interesting point is the box is labeled with a 0.032" gap and I believe OE is 0.028".

Anyway, I am returning them and I think I'm either going to order the genuine BMW replacements from FCP (because of their lifetime replacement program, I can spend the OEM money once and keep replacing them) or just order the ZR5TPP330A from somewhere else and see how they turn out.

What is the part number on the box? Becasue iirc there is a chance they don't stamp the A on the plug body - i think they should but I do not remember.

The part number on the box is different between the 330 version and 330A version.

[smurchill]

Originally Posted by F87source

What is the part number on the box? Becasue iirc there is a chance they don't stamp the A on the plug body - i think they should but I do not remember.

The part number on the box is different between the 330 version and 330A version.

The box and the plug are both stamped without the 'A'

I've also realized that Bosch refers to their parts by the 4 digit number. When searching on their site for a 2017 M2, it comes back with 8165. This is the part number that is printed under 'ZR5TPP330' on the box that I received. It also mentions a 0.8 gap on the site, which I'm assuming is mm, which correlates to 0.032".

So if I were to just use Bosch's recommended scheme, I'd think I'd need 8165 and never even know there was a 330 vs. 330A.

[smurchill]

Also, just wanted to mention that according to FCP Euro, BMW part number 12120039634, which is what is specified on the realoem diagram, is Bosch part number ZMR5TPP330, which we knew. However, on this site, is also mentions the gap to be 0.8mm/0.031".

I plan on checking the gap on the plugs that come out of the car, but I bought it used, so unless they're branded with the full OEM markings, I can't be sure they're correct. In the same line of thinking, I can't guarantee the FCP Euro specifications are exactly correct either, but it does seem as though 0.8mm is the stock gap from what I can tell.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by smurchill

The box and the plug are both stamped without the 'A'

I've also realized that Bosch refers to their parts by the 4 digit number. When searching on their site for a 2017 M2, it comes back with 8165. This is the part number that is printed under 'ZR5TPP330' on the box that I received. It also mentions a 0.8 gap on the site, which I'm assuming is mm, which correlates to 0.032".

So if I were to just use Bosch's recommended scheme, I'd think I'd need 8165 and never even know there was a 330 vs. 330A.

I see what you mean now about the 9165 p/n: the 330a version has these as the manufacturer part numbers: ZR5TPP330A, ZR5TPP330, 0242145541, ZMR5TPP330, 0242145590, 8179, 8165

8165 was listed so the 8165 number you mentioned is also the same as the 330a version. It does mention 330 as being the same but that is not the case with the update.


Yeah 0.8 is the mm size, bmw doesn't mention stock gap sizes anywhere but from alot of looking I also came to several conclusions the stock gap was 0.7 mm or 0.028" and the bosch plugs were supposed to be pregapped to this size. However they might not be, or the knowledge that the stock gap size is 0.7 mm might be inaccurate.

I have some old plugs at home I can check if I get some time.

[smurchill]

Originally Posted by F87source

I see what you mean now about the 9165 p/n: the 330a version has these as the manufacturer part numbers: ZR5TPP330A, ZR5TPP330, 0242145541, ZMR5TPP330, 0242145590, 8179, 8165

8165 was listed so the 8165 number you mentioned is also the same as the 330a version. It does mention 330 as being the same but that is not the case with the update.


Yeah 0.8 is the mm size, bmw doesn't mention stock gap sizes anywhere but from alot of looking I also came to several conclusions the stock gap was 0.7 mm or 0.028" and the bosch plugs were supposed to be pregapped to this size. However they might not be, or the knowledge that the stock gap size is 0.7 mm might be inaccurate.

I have some old plugs at home I can check if I get some time.

Awesome, thanks. I'm starting to lean towards just using the ones I got because of the 8165 part number, but ideally I'd like to get confirmation from Bosch for what the actual difference between 330 and 330A is.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by smurchill

Awesome, thanks. I'm starting to lean towards just using the ones I got because of the 8165 part number, but ideally I'd like to get confirmation from Bosch for what the actual difference between 330 and 330A is.

Yeah that's why I wanted you to read the pn off the box because if you notice on fcp euro, the 330a and 330 have different p/n on the boxes.

But yeah you can email Bosch and ask that's always best. All I know is that BMWs tsb says the A version is updated due to the 330 having a cracked body.

[gsxr750v4]

any feedback yet? From BOSCH? on the differences between the 330 vs 330A plug?

[mikeyryap]

Should I change my spark plugs after I just tuned to MHD stage 2 and did multiple bolt ons, plus going to do more?

[AFatMiata]

Originally Posted by mikeyryap

Should I change my spark plugs after I just tuned to MHD stage 2 and did multiple bolt ons, plus going to do more?

Yeah they're pretty cheap and don't take too long to do. When tuned it's best to do them on shorter intervals than when on a stock tune as well.

[RichardM4]

It sounds logical, I have M4, S55 engine and thinking of spark plugs exchange right now. I have only a light tuning, CS or GTS map using. I consulted this topic with many professional tuners (Evolve last time) and almost everyone recomends to use 1 step colder NGK 97506 because they can bring better spark, no issues shouldnt be expected. So in your experience do really 1 step colder spark plugs bring more issues than advantages?
Thanks, Richard

Originally Posted by F87source

No absolutely not, this is a huge misconception in the tuning community and can actually lead misfiring issues due to incomplete combustion.

Stock plug heat range works fine for stock and tuned power levels up to 700WHP, stock gap seems fine for 400 range as per s55's (only gap down when you start to misfire). The only point where you will want to go to a colder plug (keep in mind the s55 and m2 n55 plug is already colder than the standard n55 plug and 2 steps colder than an n54 plug iirc) is when you start experiencing misfires from a plug being blown out and confirmed by data logs and read the plug and it is deemed necessary to go to a colder plug.


So in my opinion stay with the stock plug and stock gap, this way you not only save your money as a stock bosch plug is $6/per plug at FCP but you will also save yourself a headache diagnosing misfiring and stutters.



Here is a quote from Justin at twisted tuning: "Just recommending someone go to a one or two step colder plug because of a changed tune is not best practice. Poor combustion and misfires can occur.
The stock heat range in the N55 is fine to 700whp or so. One step colder than N54 stock. And the same heat range as nissan GTR stock plugs. GTRs run the stock heat range to 800whp or so.
The old recommendation of one step colder per 100whp is also not accurate. I mention this because ive seen it spewed on a lot of these groups. By that recommendation people would be looking for 6 step colder plugs in some cars.
Also, which is a slightly different topic (has nothing to do with your post) but people need to stop immediately recommending .018 plug gaps just because a car is tuned.
Ideally you want the largest gap possible for a setup that promotes complete combustion without blowout (failure of the spark to jump the gap).
Long story short.... proper spark plug recommendation should come from reading the plugs for a specific setup. Not a blanket recommendation from something you’ve seen people do.
IE- my A90 supra for instance. I’ve seen some tuners already recommended colder plugs or gapped down plugs for immediate process after tuning. Well, my car... stock plugs, stock gap. At over 700whp and 720wtq and reading the plugs show no issues. And the car has not skipped a beat or misfired at all."

[F87source]

Originally Posted by RichardM4

It sounds logical, I have M4, S55 engine and thinking of spark plugs exchange right now. I have only a light tuning, CS or GTS map using. I consulted this topic with many professional tuners (Evolve last time) and almost everyone recomends to use 1 step colder NGK 97506 because they can bring better spark, no issues shouldnt be expected. So in your experience do really 1 step colder spark plugs bring more issues than advantages?
Thanks, Richard

Hey!

Well, what do they even mean by "better spark" because to me that doesn't mean anything at all. A colder plug is only needed if your current plugs are running too hot (and that's not an issue on our cars) it doesn't offer a better spark - that's only achieved through coil pack upgrades.


Imo colder plugs don't seem to have any negative impacts but they don't bring any gains either. The only time I've seen a crap ton of issues is with spark plug gap. I've helped so many forum members with misfires due to plugs that were gapped too tight. So imo id go with the OE Bosch plugs (make sure you check any plug you buy for gap and resistance and ground to ensure they're ok and not defective) with stock gap, then only gap down as needed. If you want to go with an ngk 1 step colder plug it shouldn't cause issues but imo isn't worth the money unless you push to major power levels - which is when plugs will run hot.

[jordantii]

I also have the non "A" version from FCP and it says the gap is .031 as it does on the Bosch site. Do we know if this is the correct gap or is it .28? Which one is it?

[RichardM4]

Hey F87source,
thanks for explanation. The OEM Bosch ZMR costs 35 EUR and NGK 97506 24 EUR only. NGK seems to have better production quality, better materials used (Iridium) and bigger tradition in motorsport.
If I buy the NGK and set the gap to OEM 0,8mm should I be afraid of worse cold starts, faster wear up caused by settling the sediment on polls surface or misfares in higher load?
Need to be said that I dont use stock M4 setting. I installed sport air intake sys, sport catalysts, dissmounted OPF and installed sport exhaust sys. Next to that I also flashed M4 Competition map instead of the stock one. After all of this improvements I gained +50Hp and +50Nm torque, car has now 480Hp and 600Nm. It is still far far away from Stage 1 or 2 but I am satisfied with my "light tuning" and dont want to continue any further.
So if you think I will not bring up any issue with using 1 step colder spakr plugs, gapping at 0,8mm, then I would like to try?
Bye, Richard

Originally Posted by F87source

Hey!

Well, what do they even mean by "better spark" because to me that doesn't mean anything at all. A colder plug is only needed if your current plugs are running too hot (and that's not an issue on our cars) it doesn't offer a better spark - that's only achieved through coil pack upgrades.


Imo colder plugs don't seem to have any negative impacts but they don't bring any gains either. The only time I've seen a crap ton of issues is with spark plug gap. I've helped so many forum members with misfires due to plugs that were gapped too tight. So imo id go with the OE Bosch plugs (make sure you check any plug you buy for gap and resistance and ground to ensure they're ok and not defective) with stock gap, then only gap down as needed. If you want to go with an ngk 1 step colder plug it shouldn't cause issues but imo isn't worth the money unless you push to major power levels - which is when plugs will run hot.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by jordantii

I also have the non "A" version from FCP and it says the gap is .031 as it does on the Bosch site. Do we know if this is the correct gap or is it .28? Which one is it?

iirc it is supposed to be 0.8 mm or 0.032", you can have them gapped down to as small as 0.028" and still be fine with stock like performance.

It's when you start gapping down to 0.022" and smaller that issues start occuring. But like I said before try to get the gap as close to factory as possible, the bigger the better (but don't exceed factory specs) as it promotes more even and complete combustion.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by RichardM4

Hey F87source,
thanks for explanation. The OEM Bosch ZMR costs 35 EUR and NGK 97506 24 EUR only. NGK seems to have better production quality, better materials used (Iridium) and bigger tradition in motorsport.
If I buy the NGK and set the gap to OEM 0,8mm should I be afraid of worse cold starts, faster wear up caused by settling the sediment on polls surface or misfares in higher load?
Need to be said that I dont use stock M4 setting. I installed sport air intake sys, sport catalysts, dissmounted OPF and installed sport exhaust sys. Next to that I also flashed M4 Competition map instead of the stock one. After all of this improvements I gained +50Hp and +50Nm torque, car has now 480Hp and 600Nm. It is still far far away from Stage 1 or 2 but I am satisfied with my "light tuning" and dont want to continue any further.
So if you think I will not bring up any issue with using 1 step colder spakr plugs, gapping at 0,8mm, then I would like to try?
Bye, Richard

Hey sorry for the late reply I have been very busy.

In terms of quality im not so sure the NGK one's are fool proof either, I have seen reports of them having quality issues out of the box - the same as bosch. So make sure you check gap, reistance and ground on all plugs you get.

The better materials only mainly contribute to longevity, and if you do mainteance prematurely as you should on these performance cars - this shouldn't even be a factor. In terms of "better spark", in theory irridium is harder than platnium so you should be able to get a thinner tip to concentrate the spark and make it more "potent", but honestly I do not think the difference is going to be apparent on these cars because the bottle neck is always going to be these ignition coils more so than the plug. Even if coils are not a limiting factor, i don't think the difference is going to be too too big, like if you wanted to talk about plug material supposedly Ruthenium NGK plugs are even better than irridium in NGK's testing, but again it is likely so minor you won't gain much aside from losing money. SO imo if you want to improve spark quality get better coils.

No, 0.8 mm is fine, if the plugs are gapped smaller than that it is fine too, imo keep it from 0.028" - 0.032" and you are in stock range. If the plugs are gapped larger than this then decrease it.



So if you want the NGK plugs go ahead and get them, especially if they are cheaper. I haven't seen colder plugs cause any issues which is a good thing, it's mainly just gap. Now if you are looking at NGK plugs but they were significantly more than the bosch, then my opinion is just save your money and get the bosch plugs, literally no point in wasting money on the NGK's unless you are making the power to justify it.

[F87source]

One more thing, if you can buy the Bosch zr5tpp330a plugs (labeled r8 on the body) those have iridium electrode tips and a copper electrode core. So these should eliminate all the "benefits" the ngks have, the only difference is heat range which isn't important at this point.