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      06-10-2019, 11:31 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
My grip is the shape of the dyno curve. What I'm really missing is the HP curve which keep building to over 7000 rpm. This high revving power is what I'm missing.

BM3 shifts the curves up, it can't change the shape of the curve though.
Yes it can, at least for the S55 (not sure if you have the OG M2 or M2C). S55 can deliver a healthy amount of HP past 7K RPM. It doesn't deliver the peak HP at the redline but still pretty impressive for a turbocharged car.

Here's a comparison graph:



The related thread for more info:

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1542700
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      06-10-2019, 01:58 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by TemjinX2 View Post
different classes of car and different type of buyers... the camaro and mustang your paying for the engine and performance and they throw in the rest of the car for free. The M2 is suppose to be a sporty luxury car that can do track duties if needed.
Not a bad way of summarizing it. I would say that lately it's also suspension in addition to the engine. Both of these machines come with unique springs, sways and magnetic dampers. Oh, and big 6 piston Brembo brakes. For the rest of the car I would agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
Yes it can, at least for the S55 (not sure if you have the OG M2 or M2C). S55 can deliver a healthy amount of HP past 7K RPM. It doesn't deliver the peak HP at the redline but still pretty impressive for a turbocharged car.

Here's a comparison graph:



The related thread for more info:

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1542700
I disagree, and I think you just made my point. Off all the curves here the green one looks the best to me (as in most stable), but even in that one the peak HP figure comes early and drops off toward redline, and a tune can not fix that.

So if you're making peak power at 6000-6600 and you can rev to 7400 why would you? Sure, in a pinch you can keep the same gear while you charge to the next break zone 200 yards away, but it's not a rewarding feeling. Revving higher and loosing power is analogous to pushing harder in a corner only to experience under-steer. It's the sensation of a diesel powertrain... ok, extreme exaggeration, but you get my point

In the Mustang curves I posted earlier peak power comes at 7000 and 7300 for the Bullitt respectively. Redline is 7500 in both cases. I can tell you from experience this leads to an exhilarating feeling from behind the wheel. A swell of power that just keeps pulling harder the higher you rev. And this is exactly what I'm missing.

My mantra is "Redline a day keeps the mechanics away" and I try to live it. But if I have an HP curve like the one in blue, where you peak at 6200 RPM than screw that. Might as well shift 1000rpm before redline.
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      06-10-2019, 02:54 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Not a bad way of summarizing it. I would say that lately it's also suspension in addition to the engine. Both of these machines come with unique springs, sways and magnetic dampers. Oh, and big 6 piston Brembo brakes. For the rest of the car I would agree.
i would say when the camaro and mustang changed to rear independent suspension...they become more sports cars vs muscle cars. I would say the challenger/charger is the true muscle car left.

i sat in a newer camaro and mustang but i just didn't think i can live with that interior...the m2 interior is crap too but it still it has some nicer elements for daily driving.

but no one is going to beat american muscle in terms of hp per $.
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      06-10-2019, 03:05 PM   #26
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You know the M2C has a 27mm shorter wheelbase than the E46 M3 and 72 more HP stock. Throw a BM3 CS+ tune and you have a serious rocket ship on track. Very excited to get it on track soon.



Also: The new mid engine z06/ZR1 will implode the earth.
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      06-10-2019, 05:53 PM   #27
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I think tires have a huge role in the comparison. Throw a set of Cup 2s on a M2C and it will be just as fast as the other two around that track.
However, it sounds to me like you would enjoy the V8 more than the turbo 6. If that's the case, I would recommend selling your car now rather than waiting for it to depreciate even more and buy a American V8 coupe. You'll enjoy it more.
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      06-10-2019, 10:03 PM   #28
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While the M2 interior isn't great -- a bit basic for a BMW and definitely outdated -- at least the quality and materials are good. The interiors on the Camaro and Mustang both make me want to barf. Not a good reason to pass over what are competent sports cars, but I want to drive the car everyday and not feel like I am in a cheap airport rental. Ford and GM have come a long way but they are still making some pretty cheap interiors in many models.

I will say this, even though the M2 is a pretty solid sports car, it really does fail the value proposition, like most BMWs. You have to like BMWs to buy one with a straight face because they absolutely are overpriced.
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      06-11-2019, 12:50 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TemjinX2 View Post
different classes of car and different type of buyers... the camaro and mustang your paying for the engine and performance and they throw in the rest of the car for free. The M2 is suppose to be a sporty luxury car that can do track duties if needed.
Not a bad way of summarizing it. I would say that lately it's also suspension in addition to the engine. Both of these machines come with unique springs, sways and magnetic dampers. Oh, and big 6 piston Brembo brakes. For the rest of the car I would agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
Yes it can, at least for the S55 (not sure if you have the OG M2 or M2C). S55 can deliver a healthy amount of HP past 7K RPM. It doesn't deliver the peak HP at the redline but still pretty impressive for a turbocharged car.

Here's a comparison graph:



The related thread for more info:

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1542700
I disagree, and I think you just made my point. Off all the curves here the green one looks the best to me (as in most stable), but even in that one the peak HP figure comes early and drops off toward redline, and a tune can not fix that.

So if you're making peak power at 6000-6600 and you can rev to 7400 why would you? Sure, in a pinch you can keep the same gear while you charge to the next break zone 200 yards away, but it's not a rewarding feeling. Revving higher and loosing power is analogous to pushing harder in a corner only to experience under-steer. It's the sensation of a diesel powertrain... ok, extreme exaggeration, but you get my point

In the Mustang curves I posted earlier peak power comes at 7000 and 7300 for the Bullitt respectively. Redline is 7500 in both cases. I can tell you from experience this leads to an exhilarating feeling from behind the wheel. A swell of power that just keeps pulling harder the higher you rev. And this is exactly what I'm missing.

My mantra is "Redline a day keeps the mechanics away" and I try to live it. But if I have an HP curve like the one in blue, where you peak at 6200 RPM than screw that. Might as well shift 1000rpm before redline.
I love the sound and experience of NA V8 and personally I'm a huge fan of GT350. However, I'd choose M2 or M2C over a Mustang despite the glorious sound of those V8s. Yes any V8 Mustang sounds much better but M2 feels much more nimble IMO and this plays a huge role for me (I might have different priorities than you ). Also, the graphs I posted above were just some examples. As long as you are not aiming for 500whp on stock turbos, it's possible to get a linear power curve with peak HP at or above 7K RPM. It's as close as it gets to the NA experience with bunch of other benefits IMO. Here's another S55 dyno with different maps (the green one is stock tune for an M3/M4):
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      06-11-2019, 02:04 PM   #30
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I just got kicked out from an Italian camaro group because I said that for me the m2 competition was a better suit compared to the camaro gen 6. The video shown here was the discussion starter. Of course in Italy the situation is different than in USA. The 2ss costs more than 60k. A used camaro ss costs 60k in Germany and I have to pay the import costs. Plus it has mile on the tacho. To make a long story short I explained why TO ME the m2 was better. I paid also less for the Bmw. They started talking about performance and bla bla bla. A guy said that a camaro could give me 2 second on 100-200. At the end I got booted😂

Oh..i forgot..I had a gen 5 camaro before , maybe the fastest in Italy 🇮🇹
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      06-11-2019, 02:10 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep View Post
I think tires have a huge role in the comparison. Throw a set of Cup 2s on a M2C and it will be just as fast as the other two around that track.
However, it sounds to me like you would enjoy the V8 more than the turbo 6. If that's the case, I would recommend selling your car now rather than waiting for it to depreciate even more and buy a American V8 coupe. You'll enjoy it more.
I have 2.5 years left on my 3 year assignment here. Perhaps I should have gone for M2C with the S55 instead? But I bought my '17 M2 with 10k miles for 39K Euro. The M2C would have been at least 10k more. So I will sell it when it's time to go back to the States and get a GT350, a GT PP2 or a Corvette if I no longer need the rear seats. Neither GT350 nor the PP2 is available here in Germany.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
I love the sound and experience of NA V8 and personally I'm a huge fan of GT350. However, I'd choose M2 or M2C over a Mustang despite the glorious sound of those V8s. Yes any V8 Mustang sounds much better but M2 feels much more nimble IMO and this plays a huge role for me (I might have different priorities than you ). Also, the graphs I posted above were just some examples. As long as you are not aiming for 500whp on stock turbos, it's possible to get a linear power curve with peak HP at or above 7K RPM. It's as close as it gets to the NA experience with bunch of other benefits IMO. Here's another S55 dyno with different maps (the green one is stock tune for an M3/M4):
Thanks for posting this. Yea, the green curve looks closest to what I'm looking for. I guess 2 turbos are better than one. I'd like to drive an M4 one of these days just to feel the difference.

I know what you mean about the M2 being very nimble. It changes direction very quickly and feels light on it's feet. I do like this feeling a lot, particularly on the track. It felt fantastic at Spa Francorchamps and also really good at Hockeheimring when I went in April. I was impressed with how much speed I could carry through the corners with no understeer. Now if it just had the Coyote under the hood it would be the perfect car

I wish we didn't have to choose between light and nimble and V8. Perhaps the mid-engine Corvette will implode the universe
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      06-11-2019, 02:21 PM   #32
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Wait the whole time OP posted in the M2C forum he was complaining (maybe to harsh, not enjoying?) about the power in his OG M2. Well, then, yeah no wonder you feel that way.
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      06-11-2019, 02:28 PM   #33
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Wait the whole time OP posted in the M2C forum he was complaining (maybe to harsh, not enjoying?) about the power in his OG M2. Well, then, yeah no wonder you feel that way.
You didn't bother to look at what I drive or the signature line?

Besides, extra 40hp of M2C isn't going to make me stop missing a 460hp 5.0L V8. But again, it's not the peak numbers, it's the shape of the curve. cntzl showed me there is some hope, but some here (including myself) realized that for the experience I'm looking for turbo 6 is not the way.
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      06-11-2019, 04:43 PM   #34
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i would wait until the c8 vette comes out. If the rumors hold true that the base c8 mid engine vette will be 80kish...that would be a crazy bargain..especially if they have some good lease numbers.
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      06-11-2019, 05:20 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
Wait the whole time OP posted in the M2C forum he was complaining (maybe to harsh, not enjoying?) about the power in his OG M2. Well, then, yeah no wonder you feel that way.
You didn't bother to look at what I drive or the signature line?

Besides, extra 40hp of M2C isn't going to make me stop missing a 460hp 5.0L V8. But again, it's not the peak numbers, it's the shape of the curve. cntzl showed me there is some hope, but some here (including myself) realized that for the experience I'm looking for turbo 6 is not the way.
I don't see signatures on my mobile app..... and you posted in the M2C section.... so....

And as someone who had the LT1 6.2 in my 6th gen SS, you will easily stop missing it if you had the right M2C.
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      06-12-2019, 03:15 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
You didn't bother to look at what I drive or the signature line?

Besides, extra 40hp of M2C isn't going to make me stop missing a 460hp 5.0L V8. But again, it's not the peak numbers, it's the shape of the curve. cntzl showed me there is some hope, but some here (including myself) realized that for the experience I'm looking for turbo 6 is not the way.
Drive an M car with the S55 first

These cars have more mid range pull than your typical V8s..

The M2 doesn't feel like its pulling hard but the M2C pulls

The S55 feels wild and lethal
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