[Al1969]

Originally Posted by nidfix

Hot-hatches are loved elsewhere than UK.
In fact they are loved almost everywhere in Europe as far as I know.

However it is still a bit weird that a Fiesta ST comes ahead of an M2C.
Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against Ford or a Fiesta, but even from a naming convention an "ST" is not expected to be a proper sport car, rather a " bit sporty taste", as opposed to an M2C.

I did not drive the ST so I don't know. May be Ford managed to instill into his "not so sporty" model more soul that Bmw in one of his most dedicated sport car...

I am sure Chris Harris had enough of super sport cars that day ... he thought... hmmm this fiesta is pretty agile, does not kill my hears like other 6, 8 and 12 cylinders, it turns pretty quick, easy to park, good car for my girlfriend... and in case I can crash it without big expense ... yes that's it... its the best car of all, yeah I made my day and all forums will debate forever what is happening in top gear 😁

[bri1042]

Quick clarification: I don't actually care if the Fiesta ST beat the M2C, specifically. I don't think it should have beaten any of the cars on that list. None of them. Not even the SUV's. The only use of the thing should have been as a rental car to get to the track. I had crap loads of fun in my '94 Civic DX (the first car I ever made payments on). It handled great, had a great manual transmission and all the road feel you could ever want (it didn't have power steering). It was a totally analog experience and a deeply well-engineered one at that. I even tracked it once and it was a blast. That didn't make it a performance car.

[cptobvious]

Originally Posted by bri1042

Quick clarification: I don't actually care if the Fiesta ST beat the M2C, specifically. I don't think it should have beaten any of the cars on that list. None of them. Not even the SUV's. The only use of the thing should have been as a rental car to get to the track. I had crap loads of fun in my '94 Civic DX (the first car I ever made payments on). It handled great, had a great manual transmission and all the road feel you could ever want (it didn't have power steering). It was a totally analog experience and a deeply well-engineered one at that. I even tracked it once and it was a blast. That didn't make it a performance car.

+1

Amen, brother.

Like I said, I love chicken feet, but I ain't gonna argue that chicken feet at the local dim sum place here in San Diego is a better meal than the truffled langoustine at Le Bernadine in NYC.

But, they're no dummies at Top Gear. They've written an article that every enthusiast wants to read, and they've made an editorial choice that is highly unorthodox and controversial that will have a ton of people talking about and debating for some time to come... and a good number of those folks will now subscribe to the magazine.

Better to write stupid s*** that gets you lots of attention and page views and subscriptions than to be reasonable but ignored.

There. I just gave away every media outlet's business plan.

[Craig335d]

It amazes me that some don’t get it, performance isn’t speed, looks or cost.
Anyway, the Fiesta didn’t win the test.
I take it the Alpine that won the test with a minute 1.8 engine and only 250bhp isn’t a performance car either........

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by bri1042

Quick clarification: I don't actually care if the Fiesta ST beat the M2C, specifically. I don't think it should have beaten any of the cars on that list. None of them. Not even the SUV's. The only use of the thing should have been as a rental car to get to the track. I had crap loads of fun in my '94 Civic DX (the first car I ever made payments on). It handled great, had a great manual transmission and all the road feel you could ever want (it didn't have power steering). It was a totally analog experience and a deeply well-engineered one at that. I even tracked it once and it was a blast. That didn't make it a performance car.

This exactly.

I started my 'driving' carreer in a 1982 VW Golf 1.1 LX 4 speed in 1989 in which I put a VDO revcounter, a better stereo and some headrests.
But in 1990 I had the chance to get to drive a new 205 GTI 1.9 catless of a friend of mine for a few weeks when he was abroad. At that time I was the 'master of lift off oversteer' so to speak It was awesome to do, great little car. A 309 GTI 16V followed. Clio Williams. Great stuff.

But I kept driving my generations of (newer) Golfs.

My first semi performance car in 1999 was a Subaru Impreza GTTurbo
An Audi S3 followed, and when that engine blew after a year I got to BMW in 2001.

First real performance BMW was my 2002 E46 M3 6MT in 2003.

Long story short, 205 GTI stays in my heart forever etcetera, great fun etcetera, but it's more adolescent fun than real adult fun like what we drive now.

Fiesta ST great for some twisties/downtown, but I've outgrown FWD sorry. It's no fun anymore, especially in the wet, how good the next gen FWDs have become, they can't beat a proper powerful rwd + lsd.

It's all about marketing. Fiesta ST ranked higher than M2C is for a reason:Airtime/discussion. Like what we are actually doing right now

Cheers
Robin

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Craig335d

It amazes me that some don’t get it, performance isn’t speed, looks or cost.
Anyway, the Fiesta didn’t win the test.
I take it the Alpine that won the test with a minute 1.8 engine and only 250bhp isn’t a performance car either........

Well it is a proper lightweight sportscar with the right wheel drive. From a renown brand with some heritage.

It only doesn't look as exotic as the Fiesta, that's true.

Cheers
Robin

[Robin_NL]

As a kid I remember the original Golf GTI menacing the established order of performance cars like 911.
A few years later BMW did that again with a 286 BHPsaloon called the original M5. Those were frontrunners.
(And the Alfa Giulia from the 60s being seen as the first real sportssaloon, but with only a not so powerful 4 pot engine I have my doubts)

Question is: Did a Golf GTI really keep up with a 911 back then, I don't think so in the great scheme of things. Yeah a wet roundabout downtown.

M5 is another story with its M1 engine so to speak. That one could menace a 911 for sure.

In my book Subaru Impreza GTT (which I had) was also a sort of underdog price/performance wise. I remember being on the German Autobahn chasing an Audi A8 4.2. From 100- 200kmh I could 'easily' keep up.
245kmh topspeed. In the twisties it was awesome.

In short, it's great to have a diversity of cars in this TG test again.

And what cptobvious stated above.

Cheers
Robin

[Craig335d]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

This exactly.

I started my 'driving' carreer in a 1982 VW Golf 1.1 LX 4 speed in 1989 in which I put a VDO revcounter, a better stereo and some headrests.
But in 1990 I had the chance to get to drive a new 205 GTI 1.9 catless of a friend of mine for a few weeks when he was abroad. At that time I was the 'master of lift off oversteer' so to speak It was awesome to do, great little car. A 309 GTI 16V followed. Clio Williams. Great stuff.

But I kept driving my generations of (newer) Golfs.

My first semi performance car in 1999 was a Subaru Impreza GTTurbo
An Audi S3 followed, and when that engine blew after a year I got to BMW in 2001.

First real performance BMW was my 2002 E46 M3 6MT in 2003.

Long story short, 205 GTI stays in my heart forever etcetera, great fun etcetera, but it's more adolescent fun than real adult fun like what we drive now.

Fiesta ST great for some twisties/downtown, but I've outgrown FWD sorry. It's no fun anymore, especially in the wet, how good the next gen FWDs have become, they can't beat a proper powerful rwd + lsd.

It's all about marketing. Fiesta ST ranked higher than M2C is for a reason:Airtime/discussion. Like what we are actually doing right now

Cheers
Robin

Honda Civic Type R records a faster time (by over 10 seconds IIRC) round the Nurburgring than the official M2C time.

I’m getting a M2C, and wouldn’t ever have a Fiesta ST or CTR, however you can not argue with how well these things have been set up with the driver in mind.

The real lack of understanding about just how well these FWD hatches drive makes me think too many on here are completely blinkered.
It’s a shame that a sweeping generalisation leads to missing out on some fantastic drivers cars. I think it runs deepest over in US - a lot of the cars that reach the top 10 of UK tests don’t even get released over there.

Who knows best.......

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Craig335d

Honda Civic Type R records a faster time (by over 10 seconds IIRC) round the Nurburgring than the official M2C time.

I’m getting a M2C, and wouldn’t ever have a Fiesta ST or CTR, however you can not argue with how well these things have been set up with the driver in mind.

The real lack of understanding about just how well these FWD hatches drive makes me think too many on here are completely blinkered.
It’s a shame that a sweeping generalisation leads to missing out on some fantastic drivers cars. I think it runs deepest over in US - a lot of the cars that reach the top 10 of UK tests don’t even get released over there.

Who knows best.......

8:05 Nürburgring laptime vs 8:01 OG M2. Sportauto.

Civic was a prepped car you know Not an out of the box car.

Anyway the last decade I'm into drifting/driftdays and stuff, I like a loose rear end.

Been to the Ring last march with OG M2. Don't need a Civic even if it was lapping 7:30 :-) Though a great car for some of us...

Cheers
Robin

[Craig335d]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

8:05 Nürburgring laptime vs 8:01 OG M2. Sportauto.

Civic was a prepped car you know Not an out of the box car.

Anyway the last decade I'm into drifting/driftdays and stuff, I like a loose rear end.

Been to the Ring last march with OG M2. Don't need a Civic even if it was lapping 7:30 :-) Though a great car for some of us...

Cheers
Robin

Prepped Civic Type R on a quick search is 7:43.

The last few years I’ve had a mix of cars and it’s the hot hatches that have stirred the soul more than anything else (including RS5 and SLK55). Less drift, more full engagement and tight cornering on some glorious U.K. B roads.
Time for me to change and try the M2C, as it sounds like a fabulous all round package.

I realise that people have other priorities and requirements, however to dismiss hot hatch performance merits as marketing and/or irrelevant is naive at best.
The good ones are as driver focussed cars as the M2C is.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Long story short, 205 GTI stays in my heart forever etcetera, great fun etcetera, but it's more adolescent fun than real adult fun like what we drive now.

The 205 GTi was magnificent. What a car. My favourite of that genre.

The Impreza GT (or WRX as it was called here) was rightfully awarded the car of the decade by Car Magazine for the 90s. I bought the very last of that generation and I still have it today. After that it all went pear shaped for Subaru. Their new cars still have the same power as they did in 1999 but weigh a lot more and are also unreliable and numb in comparison.

I'll probably get shot down in flames but if I was inclined to buy a FWD hatch in today's era I'd get the Alfa Guillietta QV. It's quite special in its own quirky way.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Craig335d

Prepped Civic Type R on a quick search is 7:43.

I realise that people have other priorities and requirements, however to dismiss hot hatch performance merits as marketing and/or irrelevant is naive at best.
The good ones are as driver focussed cars as the M2C is.

I'd call that marketing Craig, because the real world CTR did it in 8:05

I get your point, those hot hatches are great stuff etc. I also understand and agree about your statements of a lot of guys/enthusiasts being blind for this stuff en generalising things. But you can turn it around too:

Many many 'enhusiasts' in the carloving world still have the idea a Civic is almost the fastest thing on the Nordschleife with 7:43 beating all that (semi) exotic stuff and the usual suspects Audi RS/AMG/BMW //M.

But irl that's not the case.
On shorter tracks like Hockenheim Short it's even worse....

Cheers
Robin

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by Craig335d

Prepped Civic Type R on a quick search is 7:43.

That’s great. A stock Civic Type R did a 8:05 by SportAuto. The factory time was done on semi-slicks, rear seats and infotainment removed.

[Snoopy92]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

This exactly.

I started my 'driving' carreer in a 1982 VW Golf 1.1 LX 4 speed in 1989 in which I put a VDO revcounter, a better stereo and some headrests.
But in 1990 I had the chance to get to drive a new 205 GTI 1.9 catless of a friend of mine for a few weeks when he was abroad. At that time I was the 'master of lift off oversteer' so to speak It was awesome to do, great little car. A 309 GTI 16V followed. Clio Williams. Great stuff.

But I kept driving my generations of (newer) Golfs.

My first semi performance car in 1999 was a Subaru Impreza GTTurbo
An Audi S3 followed, and when that engine blew after a year I got to BMW in 2001.

First real performance BMW was my 2002 E46 M3 6MT in 2003.

Long story short, 205 GTI stays in my heart forever etcetera, great fun etcetera, but it's more adolescent fun than real adult fun like what we drive now.

Fiesta ST great for some twisties/downtown, but I've outgrown FWD sorry. It's no fun anymore, especially in the wet, how good the next gen FWDs have become, they can't beat a proper powerful rwd + lsd.

It's all about marketing. Fiesta ST ranked higher than M2C is for a reason:Airtime/discussion. Like what we are actually doing right now

Cheers
Robin

I really regret having sold my 205 GTI 1.9 17 years ago ... I should have kept it and restore it. Same goes for my former 964 C2 ...

[Craig335d]

I wish I had kept my Clio V6.
Prices have more than doubled since I sold 4 years ago.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Craig335d

I wish I had kept my Clio V6.
Prices have more than doubled since I sold 4 years ago.

Great, beautiful car
Ph1 or Ph2?

We tested Ph2 back then, we picked it up at Renault Netherlands and drove it for a Dutch carforum. I was really in the market for a Clio V6 back then (2004/5?), but the car was definitely not a compromise and it got way too hot in the interior I remember
I also found the engine lacking a bit of midrange grunt lol.

Cheers
Robin

[scflaw]

Originally Posted by hellrotm

That’s great. A stock Civic Type R did a 8:05 by SportAuto. The factory time was done on semi-slicks, rear seats and infotainment removed.

Also with a roll cage

[Craig335d]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Great, beautiful car
Ph1 or Ph2?

We tested Ph2 back then, we picked it up at Renault Netherlands and drove it for a Dutch carforum. I was really in the market for a Clio V6 back then (2004/5?), but the car was definitely not a compromise and it got way too hot in the interior I remember
I also found the engine lacking a bit of midrange grunt lol.

Cheers
Robin

Had two Phase I.
Preferred the original scary version.
The second one I had should have been a keeper....

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by hellrotm

Chris Harris:
"Prod the throttle, and it prods you back - the way it responds is angrier, zingier and a bit more immediate, with a deeper hunger for revs. Keep it pinned and there's that metallic rasp from the M4, and a lovely linearity to the delivery that makes you forget this is turbocharged at all. A Stanley knife of an engine. "

That is exactly how I describe the S55. It is such an amazing motor. It oozes the M character of old, all while benefiting from the turbo era.

[mikeric]

All this talk of hot hatches is making me what to keep my '16 Golf R.

[Zombie_Head]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

Love Chris Harris, but I know from my own experiences that this is a beast of a car.

Sport Auto tested and it is barely faster than the new Z4 M40i, like 3 seconds or so.

You can watch the video, see it understeer suprisingly in a lot of corners, the gearbox has a mind of its own at times.

Either BMW M did this on purpose to hold it back from the M3/M4 or they messed up.

[Zombie_Head]

Originally Posted by Craig335d

Honda Civic Type R records a faster time (by over 10 seconds IIRC) round the Nurburgring than the official M2C time.

I’m getting a M2C, and wouldn’t ever have a Fiesta ST or CTR, however you can not argue with how well these things have been set up with the driver in mind.

The real lack of understanding about just how well these FWD hatches drive makes me think too many on here are completely blinkered.
It’s a shame that a sweeping generalisation leads to missing out on some fantastic drivers cars. I think it runs deepest over in US - a lot of the cars that reach the top 10 of UK tests don’t even get released over there.

Who knows best.......

And here we go again with lap times.

Sorry, but if a car than can lap the ring at 5 mins dead, do you think a simple driver can do that? even a good driver with track day experience? i do not think so, you need to be a race driver and told to "push it to its limits", and the only way to find a car's limit is to go well beyond it...which means someone will have to pay.

Besides, even if you find such a driver, you need to close the track to avoid traffic.

Every time im at the ring, i see so many near crashes it is silly, from GTIs to Ms to GT3s, 90% of people drive there thinking "i am a racing driver" and "im the kind of the road" mentality, its so frequent that i started disliking the ring and actually had more fun on other tracks, since they were empty or had less traffic.

Anyways, my point was looking at lap times alone is just stupid, no matter the car, go find what you'd like to spend your money on and enjoy it. If you like to do track days, then get what you want to HAVE FUN and not attempt world records, most likely if you do, the only record you will break is your wallet.