[Rk-d]

I've looked through the archives and I've seen varying opinions, but wanted to get some direct advice

I have a 2020 M2C with Mp coil-overs lowered to recommended spec and 763M wheels with Cup2 tires. I took my car for its first track day last week and loved it.

For my next track day, I plan on getting Castrol SRF and Ferodo DS2500 pads.

I probably won't track more than 4x a year and that might be optimistic.

My question is re: camber. This car is my DD and we have some rough roads. I really hate clunky suspensions and have been avoiding camber plates as a result. I have looked into the camber correction hub, but the cost of the hubs with bearings, etc is not insignificant.

If I was going to go for more camber, I'd probably go the hub route to be completely sure I avoided NVH/clunking issues.

My question is - for my use and current skill level (group 1) how important is this really? With the MP c/o and Cup2s, the car handled great.

Appreciate any advice.

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by Rk-d

I've looked through the archives and I've seen varying opinions, but wanted to get some direct advice

I have a 2020 M2C with Mp coil-overs lowered to recommended spec and 763M wheels with Cup2 tires. I took my car for its first track day last week and loved it.

For my next track day, I plan on getting Castrol SRF and Ferodo DS2500 pads.

I probably won't track more than 4x a year and that might be optimistic.

My question is re: camber. This car is my DD and we have some rough roads. I really hate clunky suspensions and have been avoiding camber plates as a result. I have looked into the camber correction hub, but the cost of the hubs with bearings, etc is not insignificant.

If I was going to go for more camber, I'd probably go the hub route to be completely sure I avoided NVH/clunking issues.

My question is - for my use and current skill level (group 1) how important is this really? With the MP c/o and Cup2s, the car handled great.

Appreciate any advice.

Welcome to the addiction...

First on the last question - the only importance I would put on getting more camber at this point is to extend the longevity of your tires on the track. This is very much an individual thing though so how much the benefit will be for you is kind of an unknown at this point. Could be big or minimal at this point - but as you progress it will definitely benefit you more. Being new you are still learning the limits so the increased grip from the better alignment might not be utilized for a bit (but again that is individual as well and dependent on your growth curve). Also adding grip puts the limits higher which can make it a bit harder to learn to get to that limit and then recover possibly hampering the growth curve a bit (likely not extreme but just something to be aware of). I will say though that a car with proper alignment is more fun - everything is just better. Turn in, responsiveness, typically less understeer - just typically better all around.

That being said -

Not all camber plates rattle - but if you are set on keeping the MP coilovers your likely options are the ones that do tend to add NVH. I'm not the biggest fan of the hubs as well as I think that is money that can be better directed towards items that also bring an improvement to your current setup instead of only adding camber. So to me I would think the two best options would be - (one) sell your MPs and upgrade to a coilover setup that both outperforms and rides better than them while also utilizing camber plates that do not add NVH (they are out there). (Two) run the camber correction hubs like you are considering but know that for that money and also what you could likely get for the MPs a better setup isn't that much further. Either option can get you there without the added NVH but I feel long run you will get much more for your money with a better coilover setup.

Also on the brakes - Ferodo makes good pads and the 2500 is one of them - but I do like to see dedicated track pads being run on these cars. Here I would recommend the 1.11. These are heavy, fast cars and while the 2500 has good fade tolerance the M2C can still overwhelm them. And experienced drivers being the ones that can do this is a myth - even new drivers can outrun them especially if they are using DSC and triggering it frequently. Castrol SRF is a solid choice though.

[dvas]

I think OG Sharks' comments are on point.

As a new track day enthusiast, I would suggest you dive your car as is (with the exception of better brake pads/fluid for safety reasons). Eventually, you will start to destroy front tires quickly - in a single or two track events. This could happen in one of your next events or in a few years, depending on your progress. At an anticipated 4 events a year, I think you will likely be good on the stock suspension and camber for at least the next year or two.

Having said that, at some point purchasing camber plates one time will become cost effective vs tires every few events. My OG M2 has had Ground Control camber plates since 2017 and I have personally experienced no increased NVH. I have no experience with the hubs you mention and am not aware of anyone who runs them in a track/race car.

[Rk-d]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Welcome to the addiction...

First on the last question - the only importance I would put on getting more camber at this point is to extend the longevity of your tires on the track. This is very much an individual thing though so how much the benefit will be for you is kind of an unknown at this point. Could be big or minimal at this point - but as you progress it will definitely benefit you more. Being new you are still learning the limits so the increased grip from the better alignment might not be utilized for a bit (but again that is individual as well and dependent on your growth curve). Also adding grip puts the limits higher which can make it a bit harder to learn to get to that limit and then recover possibly hampering the growth curve a bit (likely not extreme but just something to be aware of). I will say though that a car with proper alignment is more fun - everything is just better. Turn in, responsiveness, typically less understeer - just typically better all around.

That being said -

Not all camber plates rattle - but if you are set on keeping the MP coilovers your likely options are the ones that do tend to add NVH. I'm not the biggest fan of the hubs as well as I think that is money that can be better directed towards items that also bring an improvement to your current setup instead of only adding camber. So to me I would think the two best options would be - (one) sell your MPs and upgrade to a coilover setup that both outperforms and rides better than them while also utilizing camber plates that do not add NVH (they are out there). (Two) run the camber correction hubs like you are considering but know that for that money and also what you could likely get for the MPs a better setup isn't that much further. Either option can get you there without the added NVH but I feel long run you will get much more for your money with a better coilover setup.

Also on the brakes - Ferodo makes good pads and the 2500 is one of them - but I do like to see dedicated track pads being run on these cars. Here I would recommend the 1.11. These are heavy, fast cars and while the 2500 has good fade tolerance the M2C can still overwhelm them. And experienced drivers being the ones that can do this is a myth - even new drivers can outrun them especially if they are using DSC and triggering it frequently. Castrol SRF is a solid choice though.

Thank you! Very helpful.

For a variety of reasons, I’m wanting to keep this as OEM as possible. I get your point re: more advanced/adjustable coilovers but I’m probably sticking with these for now since it’s on the car and has been working fine. Mostly trying to minimize dealer hassles since the car is under warranty. I also recently had a nightmare dealing with a modified suspension on my previous Turbo S and want to keep this as simple as possible. I guess in that context CC hubs would be it.

Re: brakes thanks for the feedback. I was thinking ds2500 because I wanted a set and forget option that I can DD. Not sure if the 1.11 are daily drivable that way.

Originally Posted by dvas

I think OG Sharks' comments are on point.

As a new track day enthusiast, I would suggest you dive your car as is (with the exception of better brake pads/fluid for safety reasons). Eventually, you will start to destroy front tires quickly - in a single or two track events. This could happen in one of your next events or in a few years, depending on your progress. At an anticipated 4 events a year, I think you will likely be good on the stock suspension and camber for at least the next year or two.

Having said that, at some point purchasing camber plates one time will become cost effective vs tires every few events. My OG M2 has had Ground Control camber plates since 2017 and I have personally experienced no increased NVH. I have no experience with the hubs you mention and am not aware of anyone who runs them in a track/race car.

Thanks for the input. Sounds like it might make sense for me to see what kind of use I get out of the current set up. The CC hubs are the -30min option that allow for -0.5 deg camber, so total camber would probably be ~-2.25 with the lowered MP c/o. I’m prioritizing OEM parts right now, for better or worse, and that’s a large part why I’m considering it.

[Fabb]

Less than 4 event per season? Keep it stock. Camber plates doesn’t add nvh to my car but I will be difficult to justify them if you don’t track as much.

Ds2500 is not that good for track but if the track is not brake heavy, like Laguna seca, you should be ok as novice.

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by Rk-d

Thank you! Very helpful.

For a variety of reasons, I’m wanting to keep this as OEM as possible. I get your point re: more advanced/adjustable coilovers but I’m probably sticking with these for now since it’s on the car and has been working fine. Mostly trying to minimize dealer hassles since the car is under warranty. I also recently had a nightmare dealing with a modified suspension on my previous Turbo S and want to keep this as simple as possible. I guess in that context CC hubs would be it.

Re: brakes thanks for the feedback. I was thinking ds2500 because I wanted a set and forget option that I can DD. Not sure if the 1.11 are daily drivable that way.



Thanks for the input. Sounds like it might make sense for me to see what kind of use I get out of the current set up. The CC hubs are the -30min option that allow for -0.5 deg camber, so total camber would probably be ~-2.25 with the lowered MP c/o. I’m prioritizing OEM parts right now, for better or worse, and that’s a large part why I’m considering it.

Definitely nothing wrong with keeping it oem like that. Shouldn't have a hassle with BMW over replacing the dampers but completely understand not wanting to mess with it either. In this case I would probably just keep running it like it is - do not think those hubs are worth the money. Like dvas said it will turn into weighing how quickly you go through tires at some point - but for everyone that point is different. On the brakes the 2500s might work, might not - again that is individual and comes down to both the track and driver characteristics. Just keep a close eye on them for signs of fade. I definitely would not recommend the 1.11 on the street - they squeal like a freight train.

[PackPride85]

Get dedicated track pads. There are no true hybrid pads that are good at both situations. If you drive with any speed and brake where you should you’ll destroy those da2500 pads very quickly.

You’re also going to wear through the outsides of your street tires very quickly. Get. Dedicated set of wheels/track tires.

[///393]

All this guidance is spot on. I can personally attest to the value of sticking with the car as is and not making it faster right out of the gate.

It was tough for me to understand the why in the logic but after talking with OG Shark and following it for a couple years looking back it was spot on for me. I’m a better, faster driver for it.

Also second the 1.11 vs the 2500. It sucks to hear, but there is no such thing as a dual purpose pad without compromises. Modifying cars for track is one giant game of compromise. You stick with this activity and the DS2500 are toast and you’re paying money to replace them while also getting a less capable pad on track.

If you’re really into it, spend some money on some tools and learn to swap pads. It’s more time consuming with a comp, but it’ll beat running 2500s and or dealing with shops to change your pads for you.

[zinner]

The most NVH I had from my camber plates (GC Street) was some ticking while doing parking lot maneuvers which eventually stopped after a few realignments. Real 200TW (RE71r) track tires cause more NVH than any suspension and bushing I have done on my F30.

[Rk-d]

Originally Posted by wilson kop

All this guidance is spot on. I can personally attest to the value of sticking with the car as is and not making it faster right out of the gate.

It was tough for me to understand the why in the logic but after talking with OG Shark and following it for a couple years looking back it was spot on for me. I’m a better, faster driver for it.

Also second the 1.11 vs the 2500. It sucks to hear, but there is no such thing as a dual purpose pad without compromises. Modifying cars for track is one giant game of compromise. You stick with this activity and the DS2500 are toast and you’re paying money to replace them while also getting a less capable pad on track.

If you’re really into it, spend some money on some tools and learn to swap pads. It’s more time consuming with a comp, but it’ll beat running 2500s and or dealing with shops to change your pads for you.

I can appreciate the logic. As it is, I’m not pushing the car. I’ve just started getting comfortable with figuring out the limits of the car and trusting it. I can see how it would be useful to figure out where those limits are before extending them. But I do like the idea of sharper turn in and more immediacy to the handling. Just from a “fun to drive” aspect.

I’ve spent a lot of time researching pads and I’m starting to see what you guys are saying. No one solution seems to fit the bill. I saw some people have had good luck with Endless pads, but availability and expense seem to be issues. I’ve read swapping pads on the OG was a breeze - I’m comfortable doing some wrenching. I’ll do a little research on just how involved it is on the comp. I’m a little paranoid about working on brakes.

Originally Posted by zinner

The most NVH I had from my camber plates (GC Street) was some ticking while doing parking lot maneuvers which eventually stopped after a few realignments. Real 200TW (RE71r) track tires cause more NVH than any suspension and bushing I have done on my F30.

For background, I have a heavily modified 993 with lightweight flywheel, full RS suspension, KW v3s, and solid mounts throughout. It’s NVH city, but a blast to drive. I’m actually ok with some NVH if it means the car is faster. What I don’t like are clunks and that’s a concern.

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by Rk-d

I can appreciate the logic. As it is, I’m not pushing the car. I’ve just started getting comfortable with figuring out the limits of the car and trusting it. I can see how it would be useful to figure out where those limits are before extending them. But I do like the idea of sharper turn in and more immediacy to the handling. Just from a “fun to drive” aspect.

I’ve spent a lot of time researching pads and I’m starting to see what you guys are saying. No one solution seems to fit the bill. I saw some people have had good luck with Endless pads, but availability and expense seem to be issues. I’ve read swapping pads on the OG was a breeze - I’m comfortable doing some wrenching. I’ll do a little research on just how involved it is on the comp. I’m a little paranoid about working on brakes.



For background, I have a heavily modified 993 with lightweight flywheel, full RS suspension, KW v3s, and solid mounts throughout. It’s NVH city, but a blast to drive. I’m actually ok with some NVH if it means the car is faster. What I don’t like are clunks and that’s a concern.

M2C pad swap involves taking the calipers off where OG M2 is just knocking 2 pins out.

I've just started gearing up for track in my OG as well. First track weekend car was stock except for Motul 600 brake fluid and Hawk DTC-60 track pads. Now I've hit the point where the street tires (PS4S) roll so much on the outside sidewall I'm killing the tires. Next step is dedicated track wheels/tires with tires being 200w rated. Also going to an 18" square setup (another perk of OG vs C) so I can rotate around based on wear. I'm going to see how wear is for a bit on the new wheel setup before diving into to camber plates.

[tux2005]

As others have said, with camber plates you can try to judge the time as to when you "need" them based on how quickly you wear out the tires. I found that I definitely needed more than -2.5d of camber at the front or I was wearing through tires in a couple weekends, I think I'd struggle to justify the amount of camber you get from the hubs vs cost. Maybe the Cup 2s will fair a little better but MPSS on stock suspension was gone very quickly.

Regarding the brake pads, the sense I get from reading the forums is that the 2500s are the closest you could get to having a street pad that sort of works at the track. These cars are heavy and you can't as easily get away with a hybrid pad like you could on a smaller, lighter (and less powerful) car. Depending on the track you may be able to progress decently on stock pads or 2500s but at other tracks you could easily go through a set of pads in a day or two. If you're going to start tracking then swapping pads yourself is best, I would hate the hassle of taking the car to a shop for probably 30 mins of work.

[///393]

Originally Posted by tux2005

If you're going to start tracking then swapping pads yourself is best, I would hate the hassle of taking the car to a shop for probably 30 mins of work.

This is the key. It’s more like an hour on my OG including setting the TCK suspension to track settings.

Having a dual purpose track/daily requires some ability to wrench yourself or the shop shuffle just starts to get old.

Oil changes
Brake fluid flushes
Pad swaps

If you can do these three jobs you’re saving yourself a LOT of shop shufflin.

[medphysdave]

I'll jump in as I'm in a similar boat. I've got a touch more camber. Running cup 2 tires, SRF fluid, and stock pads.

Definitely get the fluid changed. I'd find out what other cars like yours are running at your "home" track. Get some seat time under your belt until you are approaching the generic benchmark sr by others with similar equipment. The stock m performance pads are a lot more capable than folks give them credit. They fall off predictably with heat and have a stable floor.

Make sure to ride with others and check out different lines.
You may find that your more comfortable and quicker on one "right" line ves another. Once consistently running right at your PB I'd say it's time to upgrade pads to a full track pad. You'll want to see how much time is gained by just one variable at a time. Wash rinse repeat, and start looking at adding camber.

Edit: Novice group. I also want to get a hans for safety. Planning to get an electric impact for changing pads myself.

[Rk-d]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

I'll jump in as I'm in a similar boat. I've got a touch more camber. Running cup 2 tires, SRF fluid, and stock pads.

Definitely get the fluid changed. I'd find out what other cars like yours are running at your "home" track. Get some seat time under your belt until you are approaching the generic benchmark sr by others with similar equipment. The stock m performance pads are a lot more capable than folks give them credit. They fall off predictably with heat and have a stable floor.

Make sure to ride with others and check out different lines.
You may find that your more comfortable and quicker on one "right" line ves another. Once consistently running right at your PB I'd say it's time to upgrade pads to a full track pad. You'll want to see how much time is gained by just one variable at a time. Wash rinse repeat, and start looking at adding camber.

Edit: Novice group. I also want to get a hans for safety. Planning to get an electric impact for changing pads myself.

Good thoughts. I'm definitely changing fluids. Torn on pads. There is a guy who drove a CS - I'll definitely hook up with him and check out his set up if he's there next time. I'm probably going to leave camber alone for now until I get a better sense of how often I'm doing this. If I make this a regular thing, then I might investigate camber plate options and hope they don't clunk.

It was really only on the last run that I finally "got it" and felt much more comfortable and intuitive with the car in terms of placing it, braking, feeling the rear end slip and controlling it. I still have ways to go before I outgrow my current setup, I'm sure.

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by Rk-d

Good thoughts. I'm definitely changing fluids. Torn on pads. There is a guy who drove a CS - I'll definitely hook up with him and check out his set up if he's there next time. I'm probably going to leave camber alone for now until I get a better sense of how often I'm doing this. If I make this a regular thing, then I might investigate camber plate options and hope they don't clunk.

It was really only on the last run that I finally "got it" and felt much more comfortable and intuitive with the car in terms of placing it, braking, feeling the rear end slip and controlling it. I still have ways to go before I outgrow my current setup, I'm sure.

I'm in the same boat. If I run camber plates I'm going to need to mark a street and track position so I can easily go back and forth. I really dislike clunking noises etc, so I'm trying to resist for as long as I can. I think I've got a lot of fun left between more seat time and brake pads. Then I'll probably jump to stickier tires. Then if I've moved on to having an annual track day insurance plan I might go camber plates.

The track insurance is the real downer at the moment, but if you do it a lot it becomes less of an issue.. I've estimated about $12k to $15k a year in costs to make it an every month hobby. (Insurance, lodging, consumables, and maintenance?)

[Rk-d]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

I'm in the same boat. If I run camber plates I'm going to need to mark a street and track position so I can easily go back and forth. I really dislike clunking noises etc, so I'm trying to resist for as long as I can. I think I've got a lot of fun left between more seat time and brake pads. Then I'll probably jump to stickier tires. Then if I've moved on to having an annual track day insurance plan I might go camber plates.

The track insurance is the real downer at the moment, but if you do it a lot it becomes less of an issue.. I've estimated about $12k to $15k a year in costs to make it an every month hobby. (Insurance, lodging, consumables, and maintenance?)

Not cheap, I agree. The track most local to me is about 2 hours away, so I have to add hotel expense (or wake up at the butt crack of dawn).

I'll say all thoughts of money and inconvenience went out the window when I was on the track. I had a blast doing it and I'm looking forward to the next event.

[medphysdave]

Agrees. I get up at 4:30 to make the drive down and come back in the evening. Not quite 2hrs. I'm finding that I'm preferring the 1 day open track days vs the multi day segmented run groups. Insurance costs the same between 1 day vs 2, but a lot more track time during the open days.

Downsisr is you don't get that overnight time to think about your lines, rest a bit, and start a new day knowing the track better than the day before.

Another thing that became apparent is going to track days in cooler months helps a lot with tire temps

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

I'm in the same boat. If I run camber plates I'm going to need to mark a street and track position so I can easily go back and forth. I really dislike clunking noises etc, so I'm trying to resist for as long as I can. I think I've got a lot of fun left between more seat time and brake pads. Then I'll probably jump to stickier tires. Then if I've moved on to having an annual track day insurance plan I might go camber plates.

The track insurance is the real downer at the moment, but if you do it a lot it becomes less of an issue.. I've estimated about $12k to $15k a year in costs to make it an every month hobby. (Insurance, lodging, consumables, and maintenance?)

Keep in mind if you try and switch settings on the camber plates you're also going to have to manually adjust your toe as camber always affects toe. You're better of somewhere in between street (-1.5) and full track (-3 or more) and zero'ing out the toe to help with non-track tire wear. I see a lot of people running -2.5 and leaving it with little to no wear increase on the street (as long as you run zero or very little toe in).

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by Rk-d

Good thoughts. I'm definitely changing fluids. Torn on pads. There is a guy who drove a CS - I'll definitely hook up with him and check out his set up if he's there next time. I'm probably going to leave camber alone for now until I get a better sense of how often I'm doing this. If I make this a regular thing, then I might investigate camber plate options and hope they don't clunk.

It was really only on the last run that I finally "got it" and felt much more comfortable and intuitive with the car in terms of placing it, braking, feeling the rear end slip and controlling it. I still have ways to go before I outgrow my current setup, I'm sure.

Something else to keep in mind with track pads (and another reason to not run them on the street) is they're going to accelerate rotor wear quite a bit. I just hit 43k miles and I'm about at the minimum for the fronts after 3 track weekends in the last 10k. FCP euro sells stock ones for about $260 a piece so thats another $520 in consumables. It's really not a cheap hobby lol.

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

I'll jump in as I'm in a similar boat. I've got a touch more camber. Running cup 2 tires, SRF fluid, and stock pads.

Definitely get the fluid changed. I'd find out what other cars like yours are running at your "home" track. Get some seat time under your belt until you are approaching the generic benchmark sr by others with similar equipment. The stock m performance pads are a lot more capable than folks give them credit. They fall off predictably with heat and have a stable floor.

Make sure to ride with others and check out different lines.
You may find that your more comfortable and quicker on one "right" line ves another. Once consistently running right at your PB I'd say it's time to upgrade pads to a full track pad. You'll want to see how much time is gained by just one variable at a time. Wash rinse repeat, and start looking at adding camber.

Edit: Novice group. I also want to get a hans for safety. Planning to get an electric impact for changing pads myself.

HANS is on my list but man they're expensive for the hybrid version. That's the only version you can run in the C/CS since you can't run a full harness on the stock seats and regular HANS.

[DLEFTY]

Great advice in this thread. OG SHARK said something to the effect of learn yourself, the car, and your and it’s limits first. I see too many throwing the entire parts bin at their cars and not going too fast.
My suggestion, probably gets you through a few years if doing 2-4 track days a year.
*Wheels, 19” Apex, Titan, BMW 437
*Tires, 245 and 265 /35-19 or 255 and 275 /35-19
I suggest wheels and tires so you don’t chew up your street tires.
*Castrol SRF brake fluid, or Motul or something similar you have easy access to
*Ferodo DS1-11, Pagid RSL29, Cobalt XP12, or similar pads that you can find in stock to be swapped on for track use only

Done, enjoy a few years of fun!

If you feel you want to add something after this, do a seat, amazing how being more secure in the car will help ,or Ethan other items.