[fleetfoot]

I'm just getting into HPDE, and I've only done 10 days (3 in my M2), so I'm still making mistakes and learning lots. On my last track day I was struggling with my 3>2 downshift. I'm at a slow enough speed, I'm shifting very methodically and not de-clutching too early, but there were more than a few times were the transmission wouldn't let me into 2nd...almost like a lockout. I've driven manuals for almost 20 years now and it just seemed odd. I've never had this issue in my 328i 6MT. I do have an Autosolutions SSK, but those shifters seem really well built, so I really doubt it's causing a problem.

A few questions:
1) Any ideas what might be happening here?
2) Are other folks regularly downshifting to 2nd or do you mostly stay in 3rd?
3) I have heard that Mustangs have issues getting into some gears if there is lateral load on the transmission. Anyone experienced that in an M2?
4) What's your hand/arm technique for shifting 3>2? I suppose it's possible I'm getting too far left and getting into the reverse gate?

[bentom2]

I don’t use 2nd at my local tracks, but it may be appropriate where you’re at.

I have experienced difficulty finding 4th from 5th or 3rd from 4th, and especially 3 from 5 when there is a lateral load. Engine and trans mounts are pretty soft, so I wouldn’t be surprised if your #3 is a factor. Could be some influence from the shifter as well, but couldn’t say.

Maybe try the 3->2 down shift in a straight(er) line next time if you can and see what happens? I generally avoid down shifting under high lateral loads or I’m extra deliberate in the few places I do. Maybe you can adjust your timing to do the same.

[DRLane]

It's relatively common if you're shifting under lateral load with e9x, but I've also heard of it with M2C friends. Can upgrade motor mounts, transmission mounts, or make sure to shift while braking before entry. Stiffer motor mounts were significant improvement.

[fleetfoot]

Great feedback, and I'm glad it's not just me. I only need 2nd gear for turn 1 at Atlanta Motorsports Park (L about 120 degrees). As I get quicker, I'm sure I'll be going fast enough for 3rd gear to be appropriate.

One other question: when my hands are on the steering wheel, my elbows are tucked in by my sides (inside the seat bolsters). However when I go to shift, it seems like my shift action is more precise if I move my right elbow outside the bolster (over the sliding armrest) so my forearm is in a straight line to the shifter rather than angled to the right. I essentially HAVE to do this when shifting into 2nd or 4th since my elbow would get jammed into the seat bolster otherwise.

Do you all move your elbow outside the seat bolster when shifting?

[bentom2]

Originally Posted by fleetfoot

Great feedback, and I'm glad it's not just me. I only need 2nd gear for turn 1 at Atlanta Motorsports Park (L about 120 degrees). As I get quicker, I'm sure I'll be going fast enough for 3rd gear to be appropriate.

One other question: when my hands are on the steering wheel, my elbows are tucked in by my sides (inside the seat bolsters). However when I go to shift, it seems like my shift action is more precise if I move my right elbow outside the bolster (over the sliding armrest) so my forearm is in a straight line to the shifter rather than angled to the right. I essentially HAVE to do this when shifting into 2nd or 4th since my elbow would get jammed into the seat bolster otherwise.

Do you all move your elbow outside the seat bolster when shifting?

I’m not skinny enough to pull off an inside the bolsters elbow position, but I can’t imagine that being anything but awkward. As you mentioned, the seat would be in the way if you keep your elbow inside. Your arm is also diagonal to the shift pattern and I’d imagine could this off your reference to what is straight ahead or back.

[kthor703]

Have you considered maybe you're pushing past the reverse lockout? I've had this issue in the past on my old m235i with the 3->2 shift.

[dvas]

Originally Posted by fleetfoot

I'm just getting into HPDE, and I've only done 10 days (3 in my M2), so I'm still making mistakes and learning lots. On my last track day I was struggling with my 3>2 downshift. I'm at a slow enough speed, I'm shifting very methodically and not de-clutching too early, but there were more than a few times were the transmission wouldn't let me into 2nd...almost like a lockout. I've driven manuals for almost 20 years now and it just seemed odd. I've never had this issue in my 328i 6MT. I do have an Autosolutions SSK, but those shifters seem really well built, so I really doubt it's causing a problem.

A few questions:
1) Any ideas what might be happening here?
2) Are other folks regularly downshifting to 2nd or do you mostly stay in 3rd?
3) I have heard that Mustangs have issues getting into some gears if there is lateral load on the transmission. Anyone experienced that in an M2?
4) What's your hand/arm technique for shifting 3>2? I suppose it's possible I'm getting too far left and getting into the reverse gate?

Are you driving with any of the electronic aids on? It sounds to me like this is merely the automated rev matching system delaying your ability to shift into a lower gear.

As good as it seems on the surface, it's really not a perfect system. It's accurate in rev matching but often times only because it doesn't allow the driver to slot in the lower gear until the sensors see that the revs and engine speeds match. It's easy to replicate and see just street driving. Turn off the nannies and problem solved.

[KHAP13]

Originally Posted by kthor703

Have you considered maybe you're pushing past the reverse lockout? I've had this issue in the past on my old m235i with the 3->2 shift.

100%. I think this is the most likely scenario…it’s easy to do if not cognizant of the issue.

[fleetfoot]

Originally Posted by kthor703

Have you considered maybe you're pushing past the reverse lockout? I've had this issue in the past on my old m235i with the 3->2 shift.

I think this is a strong hypothesis. What mental cue or grip would you recommend to avoid it though? Other shifts have easy hand motions to prevent mis-shifts (e.g. heel of hand for 4>3, just fingertips for 5>4), but I'm having trouble thinking of something foolproof for 3>2. It almost seems like you would HAVE to guide the shifter through the pattern, which you usually don't want to do.

Originally Posted by dvas

It's accurate in rev matching but often times only because it doesn't allow the driver to slot in the lower gear until the sensors see that the revs and engine speeds match.

If this is true, would the car essentially prevent you from money-shifting if rev-matching is on? I don't think that's the case based on some of the videos I've seen. But if this were a feature, I'd be majorly relieved. I do drive with rev-matching on. I appreciate the simplicity it brings to braking vs. the experience in my E92 328i.

[DRLane]

It's simple to test, go on the street and while in a straight line aggressively downshift from 3 to 2. Keep it higher on the RPM range to simulate the track. Try it with the various settings on and off.

If no trouble shifting, then it's not you.

[KHAP13]

Originally Posted by fleetfoot

I think this is a strong hypothesis. What mental cue or grip would you recommend to avoid it though? Other shifts have easy hand motions to prevent mis-shifts (e.g. heel of hand for 4>3, just fingertips for 5>4), but I'm having trouble thinking of something foolproof for 3>2. It almost seems like you would HAVE to guide the shifter through the pattern, which you usually don't want to do.

What worked for me was thinking of more of a precise 3-2 shift instead of pushing hard to the left to guide it to 2nd where it’s (too) easy to cross the reverse lockout. I’m sure just mentally knowing about this and thinking not to cross over will prevent it in the future.

[kthor703]

Originally Posted by KHAP13

What worked for me was thinking of more of a precise 3-2 shift instead of pushing hard to the left to guide it to 2nd where it’s (too) easy to cross the reverse lockout. I’m sure just mentally knowing about this and thinking not to cross over will prevent it in the future.

Yea, this is all I can suggest. Have to be a bit more deliberate about not overshooting. Less aggressive pull to the left.

I haven't been on many tracks recently that need 2nd gear, so haven't experienced the issue lately.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by dvas

Are you driving with any of the electronic aids on? It sounds to me like this is merely the automated rev matching system delaying your ability to shift into a lower gear.

As good as it seems on the surface, it's really not a perfect system. It's accurate in rev matching but often times only because it doesn't allow the driver to slot in the lower gear until the sensors see that the revs and engine speeds match. It's easy to replicate and see just street driving. Turn off the nannies and problem solved.

The rev matching has nothing to do with your ability to shift. It can't delay or do anything like that. The only thing the rev matching system does is sense the stick position and blip the throttle. That's it. There's no such thing as a lockout. You can still money shift the car with rev matching on and there are videos of it happening.

[dvas]

Originally Posted by chris719

The rev matching has nothing to do with your ability to shift. It can't delay or do anything like that. The only thing the rev matching system does is sense the stick position and blip the throttle. That's it. There's no such thing as a lockout. You can still money shift the car with rev matching on and there are videos of it happening.

Yeah, I don't think so. I don't know what mechanism is utilized but the auto rev match system clearly doesn't allow me to finish a shift from neutral into x gear until engine and tran speeds match. I've never tried to force it into gear so not sure whether you can still force a shift but there is clearly resistance. I drive on the street in MDM and feel it all the time. 60 + days on track, with everything off, I've never experienced the same thing.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by dvas

Yeah, I don't think so. I don't know what mechanism is utilized but the auto rev match system clearly doesn't allow me to finish a shift from neutral into x gear until engine and tran speeds match. I've never tried to force it into gear so not sure whether you can still force a shift but there is clearly resistance. I drive on the street in MDM and feel it all the time. 60 + days on track, with everything off, I've never experienced the same thing.

You can go look up the parts on RealOEM. There is no such thing stopping you from getting into a gear. The only thing stopping you is the natural resistance of the synchros. It's placebo or synchros, but this is not a Corvette, there is no lockout at all. Go wait past the blip to move into the next gate and you will see. If you think this transmission is stopping you or will protect itself, you are sorely mistaken. Just be aware so you don't rely on it. It can be money shifted as easily as any other manual. There is only a Hall effect sensor and throttle blip, and that's it. Go post this on the main section and about 20 other people will tell you the same thing.

The OP needs stiffer transmission and/or motor mounts. Common M problem.

[imolam3]

The OP needs stiffer transmission and/or motor mounts. Common M problem.

This is what you need. Stiffer trans mount/motor mounts. I used the AKG as they are what I used on my previous M3s.

https://www.akgmotorsport.com/produc...e92-e93-z3-z4/

[fleetfoot]

How many hours of labor to do an install like that?

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by fleetfoot

How many hours of labor to do an install like that?

Don't get too aggressive with the trans mounts, start with the motor mounts. The harder / solid trans will create a lot of noise and vibration and it's the motor movement that shifts the transmission.

It's very DIY able but a shop might charge 4 hours and alignment? Anyone paid a shop to do motor mounts?

[dvas]

Originally Posted by chris719

You can go look up the parts on RealOEM. There is no such thing stopping you from getting into a gear. The only thing stopping you is the natural resistance of the synchros. It's placebo or synchros, but this is not a Corvette, there is no lockout at all. Go wait past the blip to move into the next gate and you will see. If you think this transmission is stopping you or will protect itself, you are sorely mistaken. Just be aware so you don't rely on it. It can be money shifted as easily as any other manual. There is only a Hall effect sensor and throttle blip, and that's it. Go post this on the main section and about 20 other people will tell you the same thing.

The OP needs stiffer transmission and/or motor mounts. Common M problem.

Before all of the internet experts come after me, I never said explicitly nor implicitly that the M2 manual has a lock mechanism or can stop a money shift. Which would offer a great peace of mind if that were true.

I merely said that I often experience a strong resistance which delays my ability to complete a shift into a lower gear when downshifting while the auto blip is engaged. I don’t try to force past the resistance and thus I don't complete the shift until the resistance goes away - at which point the shifter easily slips into the next gear with the same effort that I had consistently put on the lever.

Why is this, I have no idea. In fact, I explicitly replied that I don’t know why that is, i.e. what kind of mechanism is causing this, if any. It could be the resistance of the synchros, or who knows. But it only occurs while driving on the street with auto blip and never when driving with all of the nannies off and rev matching myself and I doubt my car is unique.

Motor / transmission mounts seem like a waste of $$. I’ve got over five years of driving my M2 on track with sticky rubber and never experienced any issues shifting on track that would necessitate that type of part replacement. And if the OP is still at the point in their track career of using the electronic aids on track, then they're really not yet pushing things to the limit.

But hey, to each their own.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by dvas

Before all of the internet experts come after me, I never said explicitly nor implicitly that the M2 manual has a lock mechanism or can stop a money shift. Which would offer a great peace of mind if that were true.

I merely said that I often experience a strong resistance which delays my ability to complete a shift into a lower gear when downshifting while the auto blip is engaged. I don’t try to force past the resistance and thus I don't complete the shift until the resistance goes away - at which point the shifter easily slips into the next gear with the same effort that I had consistently put on the lever.

Why is this, I have no idea. In fact, I explicitly replied that I don’t know why that is, i.e. what kind of mechanism is causing this, if any. It could be the resistance of the synchros, or who knows. But it only occurs while driving on the street with auto blip and never when driving with all of the nannies off and rev matching myself and I doubt my car is unique.

Motor / transmission mounts seem like a waste of $$. I’ve got over five years of driving my M2 on track with sticky rubber and never experienced any issues shifting on track that would necessitate that type of part replacement. And if the OP is still at the point in their track career of using the electronic aids on track, then they're really not yet pushing things to the limit.

But hey, to each their own.

I feel no difference in this quality with this transmission vs my Z4M or Mazda 3. In fact, it is much easier than with the Z4M.

Anyway, it is pretty much impossible for what you're saying to be true when auto rev match is enabled. The car has zero control of the transmission. You would think it's actually going to be easier to get past the gate, maybe the synchros somehow. I've never heard anyone else on this forum or the F8x forum say this.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Don't get too aggressive with the trans mounts, start with the motor mounts. The harder / solid trans will create a lot of noise and vibration and it's the motor movement that shifts the transmission.

It's very DIY able but a shop might charge 4 hours and alignment? Anyone paid a shop to do motor mounts?

Rogue Engineering (rubber) trans mounts don't increase NVH much. I'm not sure there are good options for aftermarket motor mounts that I've seen for dual use cars. I don't think Vibra-Technics makes an F8x mount unfortunately.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by dvas

It's accurate in rev matching but often times only because it doesn't allow the driver to slot in the lower gear until the sensors see that the revs and engine speeds match.

Originally Posted by dvas

I don't know what mechanism is utilized but the auto rev match system clearly doesn't allow me to finish a shift from neutral into x gear until engine and tran speeds match.

Originally Posted by dvas

Before all of the internet experts come after me, I never said explicitly nor implicitly that the M2 manual has a lock mechanism or can stop a money shift.

Seems like the two quotes above suggest otherwise? Also, why the condescension? Maybe over your 60 track days you're able to better execute your downshifts before corner entry? Or maybe at the tracks you frequent, 2nd isn't necessary (definitely not needed at LRP)?

You're definitely right not to jump to spending money! fleetfoot go test it on the street (various settings on / off). Again emphasis on in a straight line which should be the goal anyhow. Try various shifting orientations (palm facing driver side, palm facing down, shifting more with fingers just under the shifter knob, etc). See if you find any improvement.

But regardless of your albeit limited experience vs the collective tracking community, the OEM mounts can accommodate enough play when under load that the gates effectively no longer "align".