[johnnydad]

Originally Posted by NiceGuyEddie

Very interesting. If you know, how does your track compare to Laguna Seca with respect to length and turns, where most/all of the M2 track reviews that I have read originated? Sebring is a couple hours south of me, and it is a big, open track. I would expect the M4 to really shine in that environment.

Of course, as you said, the importance of the on-road performance cannot be overstated, either.

The Sydney Motorsport Park North (Druitt) Circuit is 2.8km, quite open and reasonably fast with a long downhill main straight. There's only the one tighter corner and it's still wide. Less elevation change than Laguna Seca, and certainly nothing like the corkscrew but I don't think LS is all that tight otherwise, at least on Playstation

http://www.sydneymotorsportpark.com.au/about/circuits/

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

It will be smaller, but not more agile. It's not really lighter than the M4, and it has less power.

It's got a shorter wheelbase. That tends to make a car feel quicker on turn-in, etc..

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

Where are those reviews?

There is a very long thread on this board with reviews. I've read all of them, and others.

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1226088

[kovsky]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

It will be smaller, but not more agile. It's not really lighter than the M4, and it has less power.

Edumacate yourself prior to making baseless claims like that. Did you need more shots?

Cool vid in addition to the post above by Bruce..
http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1226404

[MTHRAR]

Originally Posted by giger

The Cayman GTS isn't special enough for me. I did consider a used Cayman R, but the M2 is only slightly more and the running costs on the 'R' would be significantly higher due to age. The looks of the car have also aged too much for me.

Not being negative on the M2 in anyway though and can't wait to get it!

I considered a slightly used 981 Cayman S, but when it came down to it, I'd be compromising on options and they were hard to find under $55K. I was all over the place about 6 months ago and was considering older 911s, New GT Mustangs, etc etc...I think for me to finally get a brand new car with Maintenance/Warranty etc and considering I've owned 3 ///M cars in the past, this was the right car for me.

[M2 CSL]

Originally Posted by johnnydad

I went to a BMW track day where we had the opportunity to drive the M2 and M4 back to back. I know the track well, and although they were paced laps it was enough to get some idea of how the cars felt and behaved.

M2 was first - it really is great on track, a little roll but still crisp, front end grip is fantastic, no understeer, a trace of oversteer as weight transfers and really easy to drive out of corners using throttle early to steer. Not a huge amount of feedback via wheel/seat when compared to, say, a Lotus Evora/Elise, but enough. Engine sounds sweet and tuneful.

M4 was set in Sport mode and of course has adjustable dampers so was firmer, flatter, had clearly more feedback. Funny as it looks a lot bigger so you think it will be heavier (which it isn't much) but it actually felt a touch more agile. Top end power is a step up, sound is more aggressive and animalistic and the car felt degrees more alive and responsive to inputs than the M2. Seriously impressive, at least on a wide, dry track.

I think if I were buying a car that I intended to track several times a year and had the funds (M4s are 50% more in Aus), the bigger car would get serious consideration - I don't necessarily think the M2 will steal that many sales from it on that basis.

Can't wait to drive the M2 on familiar roads....

This is why I've been so obsessed with the weight issue.

I wanted a smaller BMW not for the sake of wanting a car a few inches shorter, but because of what that should have meant- which is a much lighter, more playful car than the M4. Instead we got something just as heavy, with if anything, less sharp performance components. That my biggest gripe. I've said in the past, I would have paid M4 money if it was a shrunken M4 (and that INCLUDES the implication of less weight) but it isn't, and therefore the M4 should command some kind of premium.

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by Ummm2

This is why I've been so obsessed with the weight issue.

I wanted a smaller BMW not for the sake of wanting a car a few inches shorter, but because of what that should have meant- which is a much lighter, more playful car than the M4. Instead we got something just as heavy, with if anything, less sharp performance components. That my biggest gripe. I've said in the past, I would have paid M4 money if it was a shrunken M4 (and that INCLUDES the implication of less weight) but it isn't, and therefore the M4 should command some kind of premium.

Did you read/watch any of the reviews? Despite the weight, the shorter wheelbase actually does make it more playful.

[Verbiage]

With the recent lease numbers, maybe an M4 isn't out of the question. It's like this thread spoke it into fruition.

[M2 CSL]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

Did you read/watch any of the reviews? Despite the weight, the shorter wheelbase actually does make it more playful.

Did you read the review in my post which was from a guy who drove them back to back on a track and isn't paid by anyone to sell a hot new thing?

Everyone has a different view but his appeared sensible, unbiased, and rational.

I'd love to see more reviews from people on here that actually drove both cars back to back because people here have a lot to offer.

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by Ummm2

Did you read the review in my post which was from a guy who drove them back to back on a track and isn't paid by anyone to sell a hot new thing?

Everyone has a different view but his appeared sensible, unbiased, and rational.

I'd love to see more reviews from people on here that actually drove both cars back to back because people here have a lot to offer.

Not sure I would base my final opinion on one forum member's post but that's just me. There are plenty of those mag reviewers that have blasted new cars after a press drive before.

Really waiting on Chris Harris' drive since he's usually the most unbiased.

[M2 CSL]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

Not sure I would base my final opinion on one forum member's post but that's just me. There are plenty of those mag reviewers that have blasted new cars after a press drive before.

Really waiting on Chris Harris' drive since he's usually the most unbiased.

Agreed. It's definitely not my final opinion but I value people who have driven them back to back and aren't in the business of advertising cars.

[M2 CSL]

Originally Posted by Verbiage

With the recent lease numbers, maybe an M4 isn't out of the question. It's like this thread spoke it into fruition.

Time for people to put their money where their forum posts are! M4 is cheaper, lol

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by Ummm2

Did you read the review in my post which was from a guy who drove them back to back on a track and isn't paid by anyone to sell a hot new thing?

Everyone has a different view but his appeared sensible, unbiased, and rational.

I'd love to see more reviews from people on here that actually drove both cars back to back because people here have a lot to offer.

This sounds very much like a person who wants to believe something, namely, that the driving dynamics of the two cars are not substantially different, and seizes on the rare layperson reviews that come to that conclusion as support for that belief, while ignoring the many reviews that come to an opposite conclusion on the basis that those latter reviewers must be biased, since they are "being paid" to like the M2 more than the M3/M4.

If you know the answer already, from what you believe are logical deductions (as opposed to the weight of input from those with actual seat time), you will find evidence to conform to it, and ways to dismiss evidence that does not. I'm going to withhold judgment until I get that seat time, but I'm not simply going to look at the respective build sheets and pre-determine the answer.

[M2 CSL]

Originally Posted by BruceM

This sounds very much like a person who wants to believe something, namely, that the driving dynamics of the two cars are not substantially different, and seizes on the rare layperson reviews that come to that conclusion as support for that belief, while ignoring the many reviews that come to an opposite conclusion on the basis that those latter reviewers must be biased, since they are "being paid" to like the M2 more than the M3/M4.

If you know the answer already, from what you believe are logical deductions (as opposed to the weight of input from those with actual seat time), you will find evidence to conform to it, and ways to dismiss evidence that does not. I'm going to withhold judgment until I get that seat time, but I'm not simply going to look at the respective build sheets and pre-determine the answer.

I don't own either one of these cars and I haven't driven either one of these cars. I have no skin in the game. I'm reserving judgment until I can drive both. I've historically leaned towards the M2 but I do have a bias in that I now think expectations are incredibly high for the M2 and that will be reflected in the prices one will have to pay to get one for some time. Whenever expectations are high, the probability increases of disappointment and people can lose sight of the big picture. Honest truth.


And I do value a, "laypersons" view to the same if not greater level than these talking heads in these car mags.

[flyaway]

Originally Posted by johnnydad

I went to a BMW track day where we had the opportunity to drive the M2 and M4 back to back. I know the track well, and although they were paced laps it was enough to get some idea of how the cars felt and behaved.

M2 was first - it really is great on track, a little roll but still crisp, front end grip is fantastic, no understeer, a trace of oversteer as weight transfers and really easy to drive out of corners using throttle early to steer. Not a huge amount of feedback via wheel/seat when compared to, say, a Lotus Evora/Elise, but enough. Engine sounds sweet and tuneful.

M4 was set in Sport mode and of course has adjustable dampers so was firmer, flatter, had clearly more feedback. Funny as it looks a lot bigger so you think it will be heavier (which it isn't much) but it actually felt a touch more agile. Top end power is a step up, sound is more aggressive and animalistic and the car felt degrees more alive and responsive to inputs than the M2. Seriously impressive, at least on a wide, dry track.

I think if I were buying a car that I intended to track several times a year and had the funds (M4s are 50% more in Aus), the bigger car would get serious consideration - I don't necessarily think the M2 will steal that many sales from it on that basis.

Can't wait to drive the M2 on familiar roads....

Very interesting review, your (even subjective) opinions of the M2 (DCT?) "compared" to the M135i would be highly appreciated, eventually in the F20 forum, thank you.

[blinkme323]

Originally Posted by Ummm2

Time for people to put their money where their forum posts are! M4 is cheaper, lol

Those M2 lease numbers...

[Verbiage]

Originally Posted by blinkme323

Those M2 lease numbers...

Yeah dude. Shit's no joke.

[BMWCAT]

People might lean towards M3/M4 for...
1. more customization on aesthetic (FULL ON INDIVIDUAL, exterior color, leather color, painted trim or what not ... etc)
2. better interior and options (full/ partial leather, merino leather seats <also a completely M designed seat to their own>, ambient light, bigger, more spacious interior to people who have the need for it)
3. Ability to option for the HUD (for some might not be that important.. But I do find it useful for myself)
4. More customizable M experience (adaptive dampers / shifting speed / throttle control customization each to their own)
5. An engine completely dedicated to their own S55B30
6. Use of carbon fiber parts to achieve more weigh reduction and premiumness to buyers (CF roof, CF driveschaft, CF trunk... etc)

People might lean towards M2 for (but not limit to)
1. more raw experiences of M
2. lower MSRP to enter the M world
3. shorter wheel base giving more nimble control
4. something more true to the brand

In my opinion, these two cars have their own markets, I find it quite unnecessary to compare between M2 vs M4/M3 and see whats worth.
For example, I personally have M3 for daily driving/ road trip and people hauling if necessary. (The M3/M4 seats are very comfortable, you might not feel it right away but long road trip would tell. I had the F30 with sports seats <same as M2> before, its not uncomfortable, but you do feel sore after a bit. Not an issue with the M4 bucket seats)
I would also have M2 in manual as my track/fun car. For me two cars don't overlap.

If you are to only able to have one car, consider this:
1. What do you REALLY want? If you prefer nimble handling and tighter package, just go for M2. No matter what M4 has to offer you probably won't be into it.
If you prefer a still pretty rawish car while having some quality of a GT car, go for M3/M4
2. What makes more sense for you financially? If we are talking financing both cars, would you be able to justify the higher payments of M3/M4? (I omit leasing as it doesn't really make sense for the 49% residual BMW set at launch... seriously don't lease M2 now...)
3. Is factory personalization a factor for you? Do you want your car a specific color painted from factory pair with outrageous interior leather color? Or you are more than satisfied with what the M2 has to offer? (which as of right now, the production plant does not have individual options)

Again, M3/M4 is not necessary "superior" or "inferior" to M2 in any way, it's just who they're marketed towards and what the buyer wants... Just like we wouldn't compare between M3 sedan and M5 sedan... Yea they're both M sedans with M tech everywhere... But I don't think its necessary to explain why M5 is more expansive right ?

[Verbiage]

Originally Posted by BMWCAT

People might lean towards M3/M4 for...
1. more customization on aesthetic (FULL ON INDIVIDUAL, exterior color, leather color, painted trim or what not ... etc)
2. better interior and options (full/ partial leather, merino leather seats <also a completely M designed seat to their own>, ambient light, bigger, more spacious interior to people who have the need for it)
3. Ability to option for the HUD (for some might not be that important.. But I do find it useful for myself)
4. More customizable M experience (adaptive dampers / shifting speed / throttle control customization each to their own)
5. An engine completely dedicated to their own S55B30
6. Use of carbon fiber parts to achieve more weigh reduction and premiumness to buyers (CF roof, CF driveschaft, CF trunk... etc)

People might lean towards M2 for (but not limit to)
1. more raw experiences of M
2. lower MSRP to enter the M world
3. shorter wheel base giving more nimble control
4. something more true to the brand

In my opinion, these two cars have their own markets, I find it quite unnecessary to compare between M2 vs M4/M3 and see whats worth.
For example, I personally have M3 for daily driving/ road trip and people hauling if necessary. (The M3/M4 seats are very comfortable, you might not feel it right away but long road trip would tell. I had the F30 with sports seats <same as M2> before, its not uncomfortable, but you do feel sore after a bit. Not an issue with the M4 bucket seats)
I would also have M2 in manual as my track/fun car. For me two cars don't overlap.

If you are to only able to have one car, consider this:
1. What do you REALLY want? If you prefer nimble handling and tighter package, just go for M2. No matter what M4 has to offer you probably won't be into it.
If you prefer a still pretty rawish car while having some quality of a GT car, go for M3/M4
2. What makes more sense for you financially? If we are talking financing both cars, would you be able to justify the higher payments of M3/M4? (I omit leasing as it doesn't really make sense for the 49% residual BMW set at launch... seriously don't lease M2 now...)
3. Is factory personalization a factor for you? Do you want your car a specific color painted from factory pair with outrageous interior leather color? Or you are more than satisfied with what the M2 has to offer? (which as of right now, the production plant does not have individual options)

Again, M3/M4 is not necessary "superior" or "inferior" to M2 in any way, it's just who they're marketed towards and what the buyer wants... Just like we wouldn't compare between M3 sedan and M5 sedan... Yea they're both M sedans with M tech everywhere... But I don't think its necessary to explain why M5 is more expansive right ?

Wow, Fire Orange!

[jtodd_fl]

Originally Posted by BMWCAT

People might lean towards M3/M4 for...
1. more customization on aesthetic (FULL ON INDIVIDUAL, exterior color, leather color, painted trim or what not ... etc)
2. better interior and options (full/ partial leather, merino leather seats <also a completely M designed seat to their own>, ambient light, bigger, more spacious interior to people who have the need for it)
3. Ability to option for the HUD (for some might not be that important.. But I do find it useful for myself)
4. More customizable M experience (adaptive dampers / shifting speed / throttle control customization each to their own)
5. An engine completely dedicated to their own S55B30
6. Use of carbon fiber parts to achieve more weigh reduction and premiumness to buyers (CF roof, CF driveschaft, CF trunk... etc)

People might lean towards M2 for (but not limit to)
1. more raw experiences of M
2. lower MSRP to enter the M world
3. shorter wheel base giving more nimble control
4. something more true to the brand

In my opinion, these two cars have their own markets, I find it quite unnecessary to compare between M2 vs M4/M3 and see whats worth.
For example, I personally have M3 for daily driving/ road trip and people hauling if necessary. (The M3/M4 seats are very comfortable, you might not feel it right away but long road trip would tell. I had the F30 with sports seats <same as M2> before, its not uncomfortable, but you do feel sore after a bit. Not an issue with the M4 bucket seats)
I would also have M2 in manual as my track/fun car. For me two cars don't overlap.

If you are to only able to have one car, consider this:
1. What do you REALLY want? If you prefer nimble handling and tighter package, just go for M2. No matter what M4 has to offer you probably won't be into it.
If you prefer a still pretty rawish car while having some quality of a GT car, go for M3/M4
2. What makes more sense for you financially? If we are talking financing both cars, would you be able to justify the higher payments of M3/M4? (I omit leasing as it doesn't really make sense for the 49% residual BMW set at launch... seriously don't lease M2 now...)
3. Is factory personalization a factor for you? Do you want your car a specific color painted from factory pair with outrageous interior leather color? Or you are more than satisfied with what the M2 has to offer? (which as of right now, the production plant does not have individual options)

Again, M3/M4 is not necessary "superior" or "inferior" to M2 in any way, it's just who they're marketed towards and what the buyer wants... Just like we wouldn't compare between M3 sedan and M5 sedan... Yea they're both M sedans with M tech everywhere... But I don't think its necessary to explain why M5 is more expansive right ?

Nice, deliberate, thought out response. Thanks for that. +1 ^^^

[OrangeCrush]

Originally Posted by Ummm2

Did you read the review in my post which was from a guy who drove them back to back on a track and isn't paid by anyone to sell a hot new thing?

Everyone has a different view but his appeared sensible, unbiased, and rational.

I'd love to see more reviews from people on here that actually drove both cars back to back because people here have a lot to offer.

What does BMW gain by these magazines telling people to skip the M4 and get the M2?

[Verbiage]

Originally Posted by OrangeCrush

What does BMW gain by these magazines telling people to skip the M4 and get the M2?

M2 sales.