[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Oktom2

The slightly high IATs on long pulls are outside the track.
Typically a multi-gear pull from 60 to 260kph is about 25seconds of WOT. At the end of such a pull I see 30°C(86F) when ambient is 12°C(54F).
On the track as you said its usually shorter and the track I go to the speed doesn't exceed 220.

Ending up at 86F after a 25 second full throttle multi-gear pull on a 54F day is really nothing. Timing corrections don't start happening until around 110-120F.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Ending up at 86F after a 25 second full throttle multi-gear pull on a 54F day is really nothing. Timing corrections don't start happening until around 110-120F.

30iat increases aren’t going to get any better when it gets warm. Good on him looking for something better than what he has.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

30iat increases aren’t going to get any better when it gets warm. Good on him looking for something better than what he has.

Show us an IC that's already warmed up a bit from driving that's going to do much better during a 37mph to 162mph run.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Show us an IC that's already warmed up a bit from driving that's going to do much better during a 37mph to 162mph run.

I mean, there is one log in this thread where a VRSF does a 2,3,4 gear pull and ends cooler than it started. It also has a comparison vs the Evo 2 where it cuts its 75 Degree increase in half.

But go off.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF

Just wanted to update everyone before the new year, if anyone is looking for the best performing intercooler available in terms of heat dissipation, please note that the VRSF 6.5" Race HD currently holds the N55 world record in the 1/4 mile.

Logs below, thanks to Juan over at BigBoost for trusting us with his 10 second monster. @bigboostturbo

Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF

Please stop spreading mis-information. The VRSF 6.5" Competition HD along with the 6.5" Race FMIC were both designed using CFD analysis and both incorporate incredibly efficient cast end tanks. The fin packs were specifically engineered to provide the best balance between external cooling and internal flow. There's nothing old school about our intercoolers

The VRSF 6.5" Race will outcool EVERY intercooler you've listed and it's currently featured on both the fastest N55 powered car along with the highest horsepower. It's less expensive because we don't slap on a BMW tax like the other brands mentioned.



Here's a 2nd through 4th gear pull with our 6.5" Race FMIC. The starting temp is 89 degrees and ends at 86 degrees. 3 degrees lower than the initial starting temp.

Here's another set of logs from a customer who upgraded to the VRSF 6.5" Race FMIC from the Wagner Evo 2. He was seeing a 75 degree increase (37F - 112F) with the Wagner Evo 2 on a 2-5 gear pull where the VRSF only saw a 39 degree increase (50F to 89F).

"But but muh tube and fin!"
"But what about the higher price tag?"
"It's made in Germany!!" (it's not)

[Oktom2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I mean, there is one log in this thread where a VRSF does a 2,3,4 gear pull and ends cooler than it started. It also has a comparison vs the Evo 2 where it cuts its 75 Degree increase in half.

But go off.

a 2,3,4 gear pull is much shorter than a 2,3,4,5,6 pull like I shared

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Oktom2

a 2,3,4 gear pull is much shorter than a 2,3,4,5,6 pull like I shared

The top one is 1-5 130mph. 3 decrease in IAT.

The bottom one is clearly an upgraded turbo, and it's reduction over the Wagner Evo 2 is 30 degrees in warmer weather.

If you're looking for someone to run one to 160MPH - well, good luck.

https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43168 - 155mph. best I can do. Either way, your money, your car.

[Oktom2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

The top one is 1-5 130mph. 3 decrease in IAT.

The bottom one is clearly an upgraded turbo, and it's reduction over the Wagner Evo 2 is 30 degrees in warmer weather.

If you're looking for someone to run one to 160MPH - well, good luck.

https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43168 - 155mph. best I can do. Either way, your money, your car.

Thanks! The VRSF looks really good too. But I am almost sold on the ER

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Oktom2

Thanks! The VRSF looks really good too. But I am almost sold on the ER

[RobA]

I'm looking to install a aftermarket intercooler. I track my car at Sebring multiple times a year and its hot. My engine is stock and its is constantly pulling timing. I will probably do the charge pipe and downpipe at the same time I install the new intercooler, but otherwise I'm not really looking for any heavy engine modifications. Still, I think i need one bigger intercoolers to have a chance to run normally at the track.

I'm interested in the Evo 3, VRSF Race, or the ER, but I'm looking for information on what has to be modified in order to install the bigger intercoolers. How drastic are the modifications?

I've tried searching but I can't find anything, though I know its probably been addressed in this forum somewhere.

Thanks

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by RobA

I'm looking to install a aftermarket intercooler. I track my car at Sebring multiple times a year and its hot. My engine is stock and its is constantly pulling timing. I will probably do the charge pipe and downpipe at the same time I install the new intercooler, but otherwise I'm not really looking for any heavy engine modifications. Still, I think i need one bigger intercoolers to have a chance to run normally at the track.

I'm interested in the Evo 3, VRSF Race, or the ER, but I'm looking for information on what has to be modified in order to install the bigger intercoolers. How drastic are the modifications?

I've tried searching but I can't find anything, though I know its probably been addressed in this forum somewhere.

Thanks

I would add the MAD race intercooler to this list, we have had great feedback from customers. Im hoping to post an install video in the near future

[Dasnub]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

I would add the MAD race intercooler to this list, we have had great feedback from customers. Im hoping to post an install video in the near future

I’ll post a review on mine as soon as you guys ship me my BM3 cables Mike 😉

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Dasnub

I’ll post a review on mine as soon as you guys ship me my BM3 cables Mike 😉

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by RobA

I'm looking to install a aftermarket intercooler. I track my car at Sebring multiple times a year and its hot. My engine is stock and its is constantly pulling timing. I will probably do the charge pipe and downpipe at the same time I install the new intercooler, but otherwise I'm not really looking for any heavy engine modifications. Still, I think i need one bigger intercoolers to have a chance to run normally at the track.

I'm interested in the Evo 3, VRSF Race, or the ER, but I'm looking for information on what has to be modified in order to install the bigger intercoolers. How drastic are the modifications?

I've tried searching but I can't find anything, though I know its probably been addressed in this forum somewhere.

Thanks

Whoa, you're kinda local to me! Are you doing this?

https://www.tracknightinamerica.com/...raceway-june-3

I'll echo my statements from my last post on this -

In order of best -

Wagner Evo 3
Pros - biggest frontal area (13”), larger diameter inlets, comes with everything including a new charge pipe, reportedly no loss in throttle response.
Cons - Weight (also a good thing), cost, questionable Fit and finish

VRSF Race
Pros - large frontal area (11”), great fin density, cost
Cons - Weight (also a good thing), some people reported a softer throttle response, VRSF quality is just ok

ER
Pros - Lightest of the three, large frontal area (11”), High fin density, no loss in throttle response, fit and finish
Cons - cost is high, but cheaper than the Wagner, lighter weight means less thermal capacity.

Don't bother with anything else, including the MAD unit. It looks to have one of the lowest fin counts of any of these units here (12 fins/in vs 18-20 fins/inch)

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...2&postcount=43
versus
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...02&postcount=1

Edit: All these intercoolers will likely require to to remove the bumper, and require some modification to the front chassis brace - it's usually spacers or additional brackets.

[Dasnub]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Whoa, you're kinda local to me! Are you doing this?

https://www.tracknightinamerica.com/...raceway-june-3

I'll echo my statements from my last post on this -

In order of best -

Wagner Evo 3
Pros - biggest frontal area (13”), larger diameter inlets, comes with everything including a new charge pipe, reportedly no loss in throttle response.
Cons - Weight (also a good thing), cost, questionable Fit and finish

VRSF Race
Pros - large frontal area (11”), great fin density, cost
Cons - Weight (also a good thing), some people reported a softer throttle response, VRSF quality is just ok

ER
Pros - Lightest of the three, large frontal area (11”), High fin density, no loss in throttle response, fit and finish
Cons - cost is high, but cheaper than the Wagner, lighter weight means less thermal capacity.

Don't bother with anything else, including the MAD unit. It looks to have one of the lowest fin counts of any of these units here (12 fins/in vs 18-20 fins/inch)

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...2&postcount=43
versus
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...02&postcount=1

Edit: All these intercoolers will likely require to to remove the bumper, and require some modification to the front chassis brace - it's usually spacers or additional brackets.

I believe Mike has said the larger MAD unit has higher fin density than the 5”.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Dasnub

I believe Mike has said the larger MAD unit has higher fin density than the 5”.

+1


Amuro,
An intercooler's quality is not measured by the density of its fin. If that was the case every company would use the highest density fin core and call it a day. An intercooler's job is to keep temps done while providing the minimum pressure airdrop (lag), fastest recovery, and lightest weight. That's why there is no BEST intercooler for all applications, it all depends on the customer's mods and power goals

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

+1


Amuro,
An intercooler's quality is not measured by the density of its fin. If that was the case every company would use the highest density fin core and call it a day. An intercooler's job is to keep temps done while providing the minimum pressure airdrop (lag), fastest recovery, and lightest weight. That's why there is no BEST intercooler for all applications, it all depends on the customer's mods and power goals

Well aware Mike, but you posting a picture with no measurements, and no information on weight, how can you come to the conclusion that you have?

I have data logs from all three intercoolers mentioned, there are none from the MAD unit. And judging by its poor showing in the 5” core range, I don’t know if I personally could trust them to make a larger core. Add that to the fact that the VRSF is well established and cost the same, why would should they MAD be considered over it? What’s the pressure drop that you guys love to quote? Do we have any 2-5 gear pulls to reference?

Just so everyone knows - it’s frontal area, surface area (fins) and depth for cooling effectiveness (in that order) Weight is just for capacity.

[Dasnub]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Well aware Mike, but you posting a picture with no measurements, and no information on weight, how can you come to the conclusion that you have?

I have data logs from all three intercoolers mentioned, there are none from the MAD unit. And judging by its poor showing in the 5” core range, I don’t know if I personally could trust them to make a larger core. Add that to the fact that the VRSF is well established and cost the same, why would should they MAD be considered over it? What’s the pressure drop that you guys love to quote? Do we have any 2-5 gear pulls to reference?

Just so everyone knows - it’s frontal area, surface area (fins) and depth for cooling effectiveness (in that order) Weight is just for capacity.

I think what you’re saying proves Mike’s point. You don’t have the information to knock it. So go ahead and praise the others and recommend them, but at this point you don’t have any of the data to say anything definitively about the MAD products. I’ll have some for you soon- albeit on a stage 1 configuration.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Well aware Mike, but you posting a picture with no measurements, and no information on weight, how can you come to the conclusion that you have?

I have data logs from all three intercoolers mentioned, there are none from the MAD unit. And judging by its poor showing in the 5” core range, I don’t know if I personally could trust them to make a larger core. Add that to the fact that the VRSF is well established and cost the same, why would should they MAD be considered over it? What’s the pressure drop that you guys love to quote? Do we have any 2-5 gear pulls to reference?

Just so everyone knows - it’s frontal area, surface area (fins) and depth for cooling effectiveness (in that order) Weight is just for capacity.

You contradicted yourself from the first sentence. You can't say you are well aware that fin density is not a sign of an intercooler quality, then right after say its 5" has poor fin density (your opinion btw) so it's a bad intercooler.

I never suggested the MAD should be picked over any intercooler, all i said is that your criteria to measure the intercooler's quality is inaccurate.

The best way to measure it would be with data, since you do not have data i would not make any conclusions about the MAD

You are more than welcome to recommend any brand you want, what i find wrong is you taking down the brand when you don't have any data except your opinion on the fin density.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Dasnub

I think what you’re saying proves Mike’s point. You don’t have the information to knock it. So go ahead and praise the others and recommend them, but at this point you don’t have any of the data to say anything definitively about the MAD products. I’ll have some for you soon- albeit on a stage 1 configuration.

Nice! We posted at the same time and you said exactly what i was thinking (With better wording )

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by RobA

I'm looking to install a aftermarket intercooler. I track my car at Sebring multiple times a year and its hot. My engine is stock and its is constantly pulling timing. I will probably do the charge pipe and downpipe at the same time I install the new intercooler, but otherwise I'm not really looking for any heavy engine modifications. Still, I think i need one bigger intercoolers to have a chance to run normally at the track.

I'm interested in the Evo 3, VRSF Race, or the ER, but I'm looking for information on what has to be modified in order to install the bigger intercoolers. How drastic are the modifications?

I've tried searching but I can't find anything, though I know its probably been addressed in this forum somewhere.

Thanks

Given your track driving, any of those intercoolers would be good choices. Definitely do the CP and get a high quality catted DP as well. The catted DP will give you nice increase in mid range power and reduce load on the turbo.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

You contradicted yourself from the first sentence. You can't say you are well aware that fin density is not a sign of an intercooler quality, then right after say its 5" has poor fin density (your opinion btw) so it's a bad intercooler.

I never suggested the MAD should be picked over any intercooler, all i said is that your criteria to measure the intercooler's quality is inaccurate.

The best way to measure it would be with data, since you do not have data i would not make any conclusions about the MAD

You are more than welcome to recommend any brand you want, what i find wrong is you taking down the brand when you don't have any data except your opinion on the fin density.

No Mike, it's not my opinion. 12 Fins an inch is literally one of the lowest of any F series intercooler on the market. The AA and CTS are about 14-16, the, VRSF are 16/in. ER 18, Wagner 18+
I can go back and find post comparing a HD fin pack vs a low density finpack but I honestly do not care this much. I'm not selling anything, I've more than proved everything I've said with Data logs in this very thread.

I'm giving people simple tools to use to compare intercoolers: I referenced frontal area, weight and fin density - and you referenced___________
Of course Marketing and vendors don't want anyone to compare products, so you'll make it seem like it's impossible to have a comparison of any part, as if black magic Fudgery that no one can understand.
He asked, I gave him options, not a marketing pitch.