[just blaze]

I have my first HPDE in a few weeks and was wondering what tires would be best for my first day and to learn on as well as the next couple of HPDE days.

Now before anyone says "stock tires", I would but the OEM MPSS need to be replaced. So now I'm looking for some opinions for a first timer. I see the RE-71r brought up a lot but not too sure if having that type of tire would be more than I need at the moment considering this is my first track day, and secondly, the possibility of the tire masking some of the mistakes I would make as a beginner. I will be using stock 437M wheels for this year and see how things go before committing to a full track wheel/tire setup.

Current mods are:

Ohlins R&T coilovers
Vorshlag camber plates


Track:

Laguna Seca


HPDE organization:

HOD

[HOT M]

So you are going to get new tires that will be used daily, and you are on a budget. Try to get the largest tires that fit, don't be concerned about trying Falken Azenis FK510 they are
Ultra High Performance, I had a good experience with them autocrossing and track days on My Z4M. Save your money this year, focus on driving and next year get a dedicated track combo with slicks, you will not regret it.
are you addressing breaks?

[just blaze]

Originally Posted by HOT M

So you are going to get new tires that will be used daily, and you are on a budget. Try to get the largest tires that fit, don't be concerned about trying Falken Azenis FK510 they are
Ultra High Performance, I had a good experience with them autocrossing and track days on My Z4M. Save your money this year, focus on driving and next year get a dedicated track combo with slicks, you will not regret it.
are you addressing breaks?

Well I wouldn't say my car is a daily. Drive it mainly on my days off. Pads and fluid I was going to change out. Just wondering what tire would serve me well for a few track days to learn on.

Would something like AD08r work?

[HOT M]

AD08R are good tires, if you are going that route go for the RE-71r.

[greasypeanut]

If this is your first hpde. I would just get new tires to replace your mpss. Chances are you're not going to be going so fast that the tires are the main detriment to your lap times. Also you've already added camber plates which, without in conjuction with faster times, eats up "stock" tires.

You've already mentioned you don't want tires to hide your mistakes. Run with your "stocks" and run without traction control. Nothing to blame but yourself for your good or bad times.

Edit: by new tires I meant new mpss or equiv

[5.M0NSTER]

Too much tire at first I think. Extreme performance summer tires will teach you to rely on tires too much. They will teach you that (almost) no matter what the tires have more grip you can reach for. Bad habits are easy to form this way.

My honest opinion is any of the max performance summer options would be better to learn on. Still good grip and progressive at the limit without the extra grip to cover up mistakes. Then after 6 or 8 hpde events go to the next level of tire and be able to handle it with confidence.

[ZM2]

Absolutely Michelin 4S if it’s your first time on track. You’ll learn the limits of the car better that way, and you can watch your tire wear patterns to get your suspension dialed in before you prematurely wear something softer.

I’d use the 4S for at least five outings before switching to the 71R. The 71R won’t even last five weekends if you’re pushing it, while the 4S will have plenty of tread left.

[just blaze]

Thanks everyone for your help. I'll stick to a Max Perf summer tire for now.

Originally Posted by ZM2

Absolutely Michelin 4S if it’s your first time on track. You’ll learn the limits of the car better that way, and you can watch your tire wear patterns to get your suspension dialed in before you prematurely wear something softer.

I’d use the 4S for at least five outings before switching to the 71R. The 71R won’t even last five weekends if you’re pushing it, while the 4S will have plenty of tread left.

Should I maybe bump up to a 255/275 vs the OEM 245/265?

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by just blaze

Thanks everyone for your help. I'll stick to a Max Perf summer tire for now.




Should I maybe bump up to a 255/275 vs the OEM 245/265?

I’d absolutely go 255/275 in your situation.

[GasBurnlife(landapanda)]

Originally Posted by ZM2

I’d absolutely go 255/275 in your situation.

That's what I be running this spring: MP4Ss 255/275.

[CosmosMpower]

Upgrade your brake fluid at an absolute min and ideally brake pads.

[just blaze]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

Upgrade your brake fluid at an absolute min and ideally brake pads.

Definitely will

[bi0hazard]

Which brake pads are you going with? I'm doing my first HPDE in May and would like something I can use at the track and street. Are you goind to swap stock/track pads as needed? I'm still on my original brake fluid/brake pads at 23k miles, and this works perfect for autoX.

[HOT M]

for brake pads have you considered Powerstop Track Day pads?

[The HACK]

You're worrying way too much about your FIRST HPDE.

You're going to be so overwhelmed by all the sensory input and the flood of adrenaline to your system that by the 3rd corner you won't remember what tires you're running, what brake pads you're using, what's your camber setting is at, and what your tire pressure is. All you're going to know, remember, and see, is that corner coming up at you at 120mph and your brain short circuiting on when to brake, because you've never braked from 120mph down to 45mph as hard as you possibly can. This is on top of worrying about which way the next turn is coming up, which side do YOU pass on, and what does a waving yellow flag with stripes in it mean.

Not to mention it's Laguna Seca, where it can be blazing sunny on one end of the track, to fog so thick you can't see more than 60' in front in 3 turns, to rain and hail by the time you reach the cork-screw (yes I've driven through THAT before. Trust me). February and March temperatures at Laguna can drop to as low as 40º, or as high as 75º from one session to another (yes I've gone through THAT at Laguna Seca as well).

And if that's not overwhelming enough...worrying about what tires to get for your first track event is not going to help.

Let me ask you this. If it weren't for the HPDE coming up in 2 weeks at Laguna Seca, what tires would you have chosen to replace the factory tires?

RUN THAT.

Let me give you a little anecdote.

A while back, long long time ago actually, back when I was but a wee green HPDE runner-up instead of the champ that I am now, I had taken a relatively new 350Z to a local track. Now, I'm not an absolute noob. In fact, I had maybe a dozen days under my belt by that time, and plenty of laps on that track specifically. But I had just put on a new set of tires, sway-bars, and new brake pads on the car.

Sure enough, 2nd session, 3rd lap. I had the tent leader in my passenger seat. Coming up on a light braking zone, I froze up. Hit the brakes, then proceeded to steer the car straight off track. Luckily this wasn't Laguna Seca, there's no walls to hit. But going off track at 70+ mph still isn't fun, believe you me. After about 3 bus lengths off track (exaggeration, we're only about a bus length off track) I regained my composure, looked for coming traffic, and merged back onto the track when the nearest corner worker dropped his yellow flag.

Let me remind you I wasn't a rookie at that time.

We pull into the pit so the instructor and I can have a good chat. He asked me what happened, and I told him of all the changes I made to the car prior week and just wasn't sure if the brakes was acting right and slowing me down enough for the turn. He said I had slowed down plenty and the prior two laps I was going just as fast if not faster through that turn. All the variables and changes were running through my head and I forgot to just drive. He said, basically, that he was riding with me to determine if I should be signed off for the remainder of the day, or can be advanced to the Advanced group.

Needless to say I stayed in intermediate, with an assigned instructor for the rest of the day. As well as not advance into the Advanced group for 2 more years. But that's another story all together.

Moral of the story?

This sport is hard enough. Even without all the distractions in the world (jobs, relationships, money, family, you name it) it still demands 110% of your concentration. For you to fret over what tires to run for your DE for your FIRST DE? Does not bode well. Keep it simple and run what you would run like if you're not going to be doing a DE is my opinion. The fewer the variables you need to consider, the more likely you'll have fun and learn this sport faster IMO.

[just blaze]

Originally Posted by The HACK

You're worrying way too much about your FIRST HPDE.

You're going to be so overwhelmed by all the sensory input and the flood of adrenaline to your system that by the 3rd corner you won't remember what tires you're running, what brake pads you're using, what's your camber setting is at, and what your tire pressure is. All you're going to know, remember, and see, is that corner coming up at you at 120mph and your brain short circuiting on when to brake, because you've never braked from 120mph down to 45mph as hard as you possibly can. This is on top of worrying about which way the next turn is coming up, which side do YOU pass on, and what does a waving yellow flag with stripes in it mean.

Not to mention it's Laguna Seca, where it can be blazing sunny on one end of the track, to fog so thick you can't see more than 60' in front in 3 turns, to rain and hail by the time you reach the cork-screw (yes I've driven through THAT before. Trust me). February and March temperatures at Laguna can drop to as low as 40º, or as high as 75º from one session to another (yes I've gone through THAT at Laguna Seca as well).

And if that's not overwhelming enough...worrying about what tires to get for your first track event is not going to help.

Let me ask you this. If it weren't for the HPDE coming up in 2 weeks at Laguna Seca, what tires would you have chosen to replace the factory tires?

RUN THAT.

Let me give you a little anecdote.

A while back, long long time ago actually, back when I was but a wee green HPDE runner-up instead of the champ that I am now, I had taken a relatively new 350Z to a local track. Now, I'm not an absolute noob. In fact, I had maybe a dozen days under my belt by that time, and plenty of laps on that track specifically. But I had just put on a new set of tires, sway-bars, and new brake pads on the car.

Sure enough, 2nd session, 3rd lap. I had the tent leader in my passenger seat. Coming up on a light braking zone, I froze up. Hit the brakes, then proceeded to steer the car straight off track. Luckily this wasn't Laguna Seca, there's no walls to hit. But going off track at 70+ mph still isn't fun, believe you me. After about 3 bus lengths off track (exaggeration, we're only about a bus length off track) I regained my composure, looked for coming traffic, and merged back onto the track when the nearest corner worker dropped his yellow flag.

Let me remind you I wasn't a rookie at that time.

We pull into the pit so the instructor and I can have a good chat. He asked me what happened, and I told him of all the changes I made to the car prior week and just wasn't sure if the brakes was acting right and slowing me down enough for the turn. He said I had slowed down plenty and the prior two laps I was going just as fast if not faster through that turn. All the variables and changes were running through my head and I forgot to just drive. He said, basically, that he was riding with me to determine if I should be signed off for the remainder of the day, or can be advanced to the Advanced group.

Needless to say I stayed in intermediate, with an assigned instructor for the rest of the day. As well as not advance into the Advanced group for 2 more years. But that's another story all together.

Moral of the story?

This sport is hard enough. Even without all the distractions in the world (jobs, relationships, money, family, you name it) it still demands 110% of your concentration. For you to fret over what tires to run for your DE for your FIRST DE? Does not bode well. Keep it simple and run what you would run like if you're not going to be doing a DE is my opinion. The fewer the variables you need to consider, the more likely you'll have fun and learn this sport faster IMO.

I appreciate your feedback. I guess sometimes it's easy to get wrapped up with overthinking it.

[ZM2]

That’s a good story, but throwing a 71R (or R comp) on the car for your first DE just adds more variables that overtaxes a new driver. Hence, the recommendation to stick with street rubber to start.

There’s plenty of new guys that think they should run that kind of rubber on the street, too, so we need to be clear that isn’t a recommendation here.

I’ve seen plenty of new guys show up with their tricked out ride and sticky tires, just to put the car in the wall in the first session. That’s half the instructor’s fault, but also saying an inexperienced person should run whatever tire they feel like is incomplete advice and we need to give a little guidance.

But, the mindset piece that The Hack mentions is the most important part, and is really his point.

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by bi0hazard

Which brake pads are you going with? I'm doing my first HPDE in May and would like something I can use at the track and street. Are you goind to swap stock/track pads as needed? I'm still on my original brake fluid/brake pads at 23k miles, and this works perfect for autoX.

Track days and auto-x are completely different. You're stopping from much higher speeds and not just running 1 lap with 5-10 mins of cooldown between laps.

I'd get a dedicated track pad and swap back and forth. There's no such thing as a good compromise pad that can hold up to track abuse without being dusty, noisy and hard on rotors for street driving.

[The HACK]

I've been to Laguna Seca IRL about a dozen days as well have done THOUSANDS of laps virtual.

Laguna is one of the toughest tracks on brakes I've ever seen. I've managed to fade every single stock brake system using street pads at Laguna. Doesn't matter how many pistons or how big the rotor. I took my Z4 M Coupe to Laguna about 6 months after I got it and I didn't dare use street pads there. It's a recipe for disaster.

Having instructed there about a dozen days with BMW CCA, I can also tell you that I've come across COUNTLESS students who think they can "street pad" or "compromise" for braking for Laguna only to find out that just because it's cool outside, doesn't mean your brakes aren't generating 900ºF+ of heat brake after brake, lap after lap. I can go into detail about how turn 2 (Andretti Hairpin) goes from 125mph down to 30mph in a blink of an eye, or entry into cork-screw is the hardest braking zone in the shortest period of time you'll ever come across because 1) its uphill. If you're off the gas to early and starting the brake well before the crest of the hill, you might as well just park the car, get out for a smoke, then get back in and coast down the corkscrew and 2) you can't POSSIBLY be braking in a straight line there and still manage to hit your entry, apex, AND exit. Or how turn 11 is the THIRD heavy 100+ down to 30mph brake zone almost immediately followed by, you guess it. Andretti Hairpin.

So even though I tell you don't elf with the tires? Well...For Laguna you'd want to make sure your brakes are up to snuff. High temp brake fluid is a MUST. Trackpads if you can.

HAVING SAID THAT.

It's coming up on nearly 20 years since I started doing this, and this is what I've observed in the last two decades. I'm copying and pasting from another forum which I've broken it down like this:

Originally Posted by The HACK

I've seen this happen way too many times to comment on each individual case, but I can give you a couple of examples.

New guy at HPDE, I sat right seat a couple of times. Towards the end of the year he shows up with $4,000 worth of new "track" wheels and tires. Had a good time, and I never see him again at our local events. I just assumed he "graduated" and started doing events with other organizations. Then I see him about 12 months later at a local club gathering, he recognized me and we started chatting about a few other things, and as it turns out, he had a kid, basically stopped coming to the track because, well, kid, and ended up selling that $4,000 wheel and tire set to someone else for $1,000 and took a huge loss.

Of course that $3,000 loss probably pays for 4 months of pre-school where he lives, so yeah. No sympathy.

Another guy, invested $7,000 (because BMW?) into a top end big brake kit. Not a beginner by any stretch, but comes to HPDEs maybe 2 times a year. Was complaining to me that our HPDEs are way too expensive, and I had to point out to him, that at an average of 2 DEs per year, in the span of 4 years his brakes are costing nearly $900 PER WEEKEND. The look on his face was priceless when I break that down for him.

There are of course, tons of other anecdotes I can give you. And you're right, for a sport so damn expensive that you HAVE to be smart spending money. Hence my recommendation. Don't spend it unless you need it. Unless it's for safety. Because I myself has gone through just about every iteration in this sport, and know that you're basically wasting money by putting money before you figure out what you really need.

Especially for beginners? Again, I see this way too often. Enthusiasts come to do a HPDE, gets hooked (it is incredibly addictive, the sensation of speed*). Out of every 100 HPDE noobs, only about 50% return for more events. No matter how enthusiastic. You will always get about half of them that love the event, but hate the "stress" it puts on their cars and the expenses that goes with it. Then out of that 50%, only about half will continue to do this after 4-5 events and progress out of the "beginners" skill level. For whatever reason, be it time (it is time consuming), resources, scheduling, work, whatever, their interest wanes after 6-8 months or half a dozen event and you won't see them back at DEs. Of the remaining 25 people from the initial 100 noobs, only about 10 will stick around and continue to do more after about 2 years of coming to DEs. Be it just boredom from driving around in a circle, or whatever reason, out of the initial 100 noobs only about 10 will continue to do DEs regularly. Out of those 10, within the next 3-5 years, all but 2 will likely have an incident. It doesn't have to be car to car or car to wall. It could be a close call (nasty spin off, mechanical failure on track, whatever), and about 75% of those 8 will stop coming back.

So in reality? 4 out of 100 will progress to a point where track wheels and tires and big brake kits make financial sense. At that rate, if everyone who signed up for DE for the first time, had a great time, and went out and "invested" $4,000 in tires, wheels, and brakes? It just means there's 4 people out of the bunch that will be taking full advantage of the 75% discount a few years later when all 96 of the noobs try to sell their wheels, tires, and big brake kit.

My final advice to the OP? Don't buy new. Go to the classified on various forums. There are plenty of "deals" to be had from people who bought new, and 6 months later realize that this sport isn't for them. Pick up a set of used rim and tires for 1/4th what they're worth NEW. That would be a sensible way to approaching spending money to save money, IMO.

Of course, you can't buy brake pads used...Or can you?

[bi0hazard]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

Track days and auto-x are completely different. You're stopping from much higher speeds and not just running 1 lap with 5-10 mins of cooldown between laps.

I'd get a dedicated track pad and swap back and forth. There's no such thing as a good compromise pad that can hold up to track abuse without being dusty, noisy and hard on rotors for street driving.

Thanks for the advice. I'm only planning on one weekend high speed track. Otherwise, sticking to just autoX this year.

[just blaze]

Originally Posted by bi0hazard

Which brake pads are you going with? I'm doing my first HPDE in May and would like something I can use at the track and street. Are you goind to swap stock/track pads as needed? I'm still on my original brake fluid/brake pads at 23k miles, and this works perfect for autoX.

Sorry missed your post through the shuffle. I'm probably going with PFC08/SRF. Reason is I wanted to keep street/track pad usage separate and I've heard one of the weakest points of the car is the brakes. I'd rather not worry about that and just change back to OEM pads when I'm done.

[just blaze]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I've been to Laguna Seca IRL about a dozen days as well have done THOUSANDS of laps virtual.

Laguna is one of the toughest tracks on brakes I've ever seen. I've managed to fade every single stock brake system using street pads at Laguna. Doesn't matter how many pistons or how big the rotor. I took my Z4 M Coupe to Laguna about 6 months after I got it and I didn't dare use street pads there. It's a recipe for disaster.

Having instructed there about a dozen days with BMW CCA, I can also tell you that I've come across COUNTLESS students who think they can "street pad" or "compromise" for braking for Laguna only to find out that just because it's cool outside, doesn't mean your brakes aren't generating 900ºF+ of heat brake after brake, lap after lap. I can go into detail about how turn 2 (Andretti Hairpin) goes from 125mph down to 30mph in a blink of an eye, or entry into cork-screw is the hardest braking zone in the shortest period of time you'll ever come across because 1) its uphill. If you're off the gas to early and starting the brake well before the crest of the hill, you might as well just park the car, get out for a smoke, then get back in and coast down the corkscrew and 2) you can't POSSIBLY be braking in a straight line there and still manage to hit your entry, apex, AND exit. Or how turn 11 is the THIRD heavy 100+ down to 30mph brake zone almost immediately followed by, you guess it. Andretti Hairpin.

So even though I tell you don't elf with the tires? Well...For Laguna you'd want to make sure your brakes are up to snuff. High temp brake fluid is a MUST. Trackpads if you can.

HAVING SAID THAT.

It's coming up on nearly 20 years since I started doing this, and this is what I've observed in the last two decades. I'm copying and pasting from another forum which I've broken it down like this:



Of course, you can't buy brake pads used...Or can you?

Thanks for the advice. Definitely upgrading pads and fluid. And about going crazy on upgrading or modding, going to see how things go before going further with mods/parts.