[6speed_M2]

I ended up going with the Wagner comp II a few months back instead of the 3 bc I was told by multiple people that that stage 3 would not work well with the stock turbo. Most think the comp II is fine for stock turbo cars (street driving) but if I was going for a track set up it would be the stage 3 Wagner over everything.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by 6speed_M2

I ended up going with the Wagner comp II a few months back instead of the 3 bc I was told by multiple people that that stage 3 would not work well with the stock turbo. Most think the comp II is fine for stock turbo cars (street driving) but if I was going for a track set up it would be the stage 3 Wagner over everything.

Neither are necessary or proper for what he's looking to do. The Wagner Evo 2 is literally one of the worst performing Intercoolers (for IAT reduction) in comparison to the D088, ATM, CFS, ER and VRSF, AND it costs more. Basically it saves less than 10lbs over these comparable intercoolers, but doesn't cool as well, and costs more.

The Evo 3 is substantially larger, but's not necessary to cool nearly a stock turbo car on at or near stock boost. OP would be better served with any of the intercoolers mentioned - I might be more inclined to recommend something like the ER just because it's taller height is more beneficial than absolute depth.

[AmuroRay]

First, I want to apologize OP, because reading through this thread again, I can see how all this information is just confusing, and my own comments are vague and downright condescending. I’ll continue to work on my tone through text, but my intention really is to help.

With that said, to answer your concerns:

Radiator size: You shouldn’t need to worry about this. Most intercoolers don’t cause issues with your radiator's ability to cool, and at stock or near stock power levels, high IAT (intake air temperature) is a bigger concern.
High IAT can lead to timing corrections, which in turn cause inconsistent power delivery and power loss.

Tube and Fin versus Bar and Plate: Don’t read too much into it, but tube and fin are technically cheaper to produce and lighter, but lack the absolute cooling ability and durability of a bar and plate.
Tube and fin ICs do not cool down any quicker or more effectively than bar and plate ICs, so just ignore that marketing fluff.

Core Size: this is one of the most important parts of the intercooler. The bigger the size, the better the ability to cool. Frontal surface area is more effective at cooling than depth, so you'll often see the best intercoolers are taller than they are deeper. Again, you don't have to worry about the intercooler interfering with your radiators ability to cool.

Part of the reason that the AFE and Forge are outdated is because they don't use the most effective core size and they have low fin density.

Fin Density: More fins = More cooling, that's it. You want as many fins as possible because they increase the effective surface area, and the intercoolers ability to cool.

Intercoolers like the Forge and AFE (from the photos) have cores that aren't very fin dense, and combined with their lower frontal area, and would be quickly overwhelmed with 2 or more street pulls, much less track duty.

Throttle Response: This one is harder to tackle, because it's subjective, and it's also impacted by installation. The long and short of it is yes, a bigger intercooler can impact throttle response, but most (with the exception of 1 or 2 large "race" class intercoolers) do not. You don't need to have an unpleasant daily driving experience just to get consistent power delivery at the track.

Cost: You can have a good intercooler, in quality, cooling performance and drivability, and it doesn't have to be the most costly option. Yes, sometimes paying extra can get you something that "feels" nicer, but it might not be the best performing product. Also keep in mind these are just giant aluminum heatsinks - they don't need to be "bling"

Recommendations:

It sounds like you're going for an OEM+ type build and experience, where your want increased limits, but the car to drive like stock. And based on your comments about price, I would assume you're willing to pay more for a quality product.

As I said before, I don't recommend any "stage 1" intercoole. This includes the Wagner Evo/Performance 1, the aforementioned AFE, and the like. They are near stock in size and don't provide any real ability to cool outside of a 1 or 2 street pulls at best, and typically represent a poor value. I would recommend for anyone the VRSF Competition Core - it's 8" tall (about average size) and has one of the most dense fin packs available, but VRSF's reputation for better or worse is what it is. I can say I have one sitting in my garage, it looks nice enough and at $420, it's literally a steal.

With that said, just about any core 8" in height (or greater) and a dense fin pack would work.

For Stock and/or lightly modded cars (up to FBO and minor track duty):
DO88 - Strong reviews of this core, and good cooling ability. It claims to have lower pressure drop than the Wagner Evo 2, while costing less and cooling better
ATM - ATM's core was actually designed by a thermal engineer. ATM (Helix) is also the brand that came up with the stepped intercooler design for BMW in the first place. Their core is entirely one piece purpose built for this application, and it offers less lag and better drivability than something like the CFS which is a copy.
VRSF 6.5' Competition - As noted above, the VRSF offers 20 fins per inch, so it's one of the most dense fin packs around, and it's slightly larger than the other two mentioned here. For $40, 1.5" additional depth and more surface area over the VRSF 5", this is an extremely good value.

I'm not saying that other coolers don't/won't work, however these intercoolers will offer the best cooling, drivability and cost.

For highly modded cars(FBO, upgraded turbo, and/or frequent track duty):
I would not recommend a race intercooler (VRSF race, MAD 7" race, Wagner Evo 3) because they may compromise drivability and or require modification during install, and aren't fit for your needs.
ER - Large frontal area, good fin density, this is a great IC.
VRSF 6.5' Race - Huge size, great fin density, with added capacity due to the step portion. It also has the lowest price.
Wagner Evolution 3 - Huge size (7" depth and 13" height!) and great reviews and results from those who have run it.


Other intercoolers
Wagner Evo 1/2 - Great throttle response, High cost, but lowest cooling performance. There are better options
CTS/AA - These look to be similar if not outright the same. They are similar in cost to the VRSF, but likely will not perform as well.
VRSF 5" - The Competition is just a better buy in every way. The Competition is slightly larger and has higher fin density.
Mishimoto - Not horrible, but it's likely not as effective as the other options listed. The tilted core actually creates an area in the middle of the IC that is not functional, which is a waste of packaging.
CSF - A copy of the ATM, with 2 cores instead of one large one.

[pal]

Thanks AmouroRay.

Thanks for the tip on the Evolution Raceworks intercooler - that looks like a very interesting option. Large frontal area, dense fins, bar & plate and they locate it a bit further forward from what I can tell from their website. This should be good for the intercooler, and creates more air gap to the rad, which cannot be a bad thing.

http://www.evolutionracewerks.com/node/258

You seem to bundle the Evo 1 into one narrative, and don't seem to have a preference for tube & fin. Everything I've read, they are more expensive to make - and it makes sense since there is more to the construction compared to bar and plate. They apparently are faster to cool down as well, and I know TT RS buddies running these without issues on track.

On my TT RS I am running a Forge Race bar & plate and its very similar to the Evolution Racewerks unit so that just bubbled up to near the top of my list. With the Forge Race, I added weight that I could feel and lost a little in the way of throttle response, but after some driving it was not "felt" anymore.

Now, you did not address one thing - that is weight. One other reason I like the tube/fin or a smaller bar/plate is from a weight perspective. Stock is light and the lightest bigger intercooler is the Evo 1 Comp at about twice the stock weight. And the bar and plate stepped units are 4 times stock weight. That's a lot and it sits ahead of the front "axle".

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by pal

Thanks AmouroRay.

Thanks for the tip on the Evolution Raceworks intercooler - that looks like a very interesting option. Large frontal area, dense fins, bar & plate and they locate it a bit further forward from what I can tell from their website. This should be good for the intercooler, and creates more air gap to the rad, which cannot be a bad thing.

http://www.evolutionracewerks.com/node/258

You seem to bundle the Evo 1 into one narrative, and don't seem to have a preference for tube & fin. Everything I've read, they are more expensive to make - and it makes sense since there is more to the construction compared to bar and plate. They apparently are faster to cool down as well, and I know TT RS buddies running these without issues on track.

On my TT RS I am running a Forge Race bar & plate and its very similar to the Evolution Racewerks unit so that just bubbled up to near the top of my list. With the Forge Race, I added weight that I could feel and lost a little in the way of throttle response, but after some driving it was not "felt" anymore.

Now, you did not address one thing - that is weight. One other reason I like the tube/fin or a smaller bar/plate is from a weight perspective. Stock is light and the lightest bigger intercooler is the Evo 1 Comp at about twice the stock weight. And the bar and plate stepped units are 4 times stock weight. That's a lot and it sits ahead of the front "axle".

Weight is actually a benefit, as it allows for more thermal capacity. Yes Tube and Fin intercoolers are lighter, but with it, they give up absolute cooling ability.

Tube and fin is actually cheaper to produce and fairly light. The OEM intercooler is a tube and fin construction, and it's why it's so easy to overwhelm. I would say that a few extra lbs should not throw off the balance of the car, and you shouldn't limit your choices based on weight alone. On a final note, majority of the weight is low down, (instead of above the engine) it's likely not increasing the center of gravity much, if at all.

[ZM2]

AmuroRay nice breakdown and a precursor to your upcoming Mr. Intercooler thread.

Just a heads up that it's CSF, not CFS. I have their oil & DCT coolers, and radiator--nice plug & play fitment, but I don't have experience with their FMIC.

As for the Evo3, definitely complete overkill if you're not tracking or live in the desert, and being able to mount that sucker to the crash bumper is great. Of note, I did not notice any additional lag--I'm guessing b/c Wagner increases the sizes of the inlet/outlets on the IC and provides their pipes to go with it, vs needing to buy other aftermarket pipes.

I haven’t measured, but it’s definitely more than a foot tall. It sticks up a couple inches above the bottom of the kidneys.

Would still love to see a head to head review of the Evo3 and the VRSF Race, but the install is enough of a PITA that once you put the Evo3 on, you don't want to take it off!

[pal]

The more I think about this and the discussion we're having here, convinces me that the Forge and aFe are certainly not going to cut it even with stock power on 90°F ambient temp days. The Evolution Racewerks seems like it will do the trick for a stock or stage 1 car - I like the large frontal area and thinner core to get more fresh air to charge air by keeping more of it exposed to ambient. And the weight will likely strike a liveable balance between the larger stepped bar/plate units and the lighter Wagner Comp tube/fins.

I still don't agree with your thinking on tube/fin and Wagner's Comp 1 / 2 line of Intercoolers. I don't see why a larger tube/fin won't work when the stock smaller one works in most situations.

Evo3 seems overkill for sure and not a fan of the install and "changes" needed to the car. Plus it likely has pressure drop for stock or stage one, enough to be annoying.

[pal]

AmouroRay, what's the weight of your VRSF Comp 5"?

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by pal

The more I think about this and the discussion we're having here, convinces me that the Forge and aFe are certainly not going to cut it even with stock power on 90°F ambient temp days. The Evolution Racewerks seems like it will do the trick for a stock or stage 1 car - I like the large frontal area and thinner core to get more fresh air to charge air by keeping more of it exposed to ambient. And the weight will likely strike a liveable balance between the larger stepped bar/plate units and the lighter Wagner Comp tube/fins.

Evo3 seems overkill for sure and not a fan of the install and "changes" needed to the car. Plus it likely has pressure drop for stock or stage one, enough to be annoying.

You don’t need the Evo3 for your application, but it doesn’t have any additional lag. In fact, Wagner lists it as having less pressure drop than their Evo2 IC’s.

Just don’t want this idea to start cropping up as we’re discussing all the IC options. Whether the other large race intercoolers have additional lag, IDK.

[pal]

Originally Posted by ZM2

You don’t need the Evo3 for your application, but it doesn’t have any additional lag. In fact, Wagner lists it as having less pressure drop than their Evo2 IC’s.

Just don’t want this idea to start cropping up as we’re discussing all the IC’s.

So you don't want me calling out that there may be a pressure drop on the Evo3 in every Intercooler thread across the inter webs? Got it

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by pal

So you don't want me calling out that there may be a pressure drop on the Evo3 in every Intercooler thread across the inter webs? Got it

The whole point of Amuro’s breakdown is there is all kinds of speculation and assumptions out there about the various IC’s, when data and performance are what matter. That approach is what has steered you away from the aFe IC.

I’ve contributed by showing stock vs Dinan vs Evo2 Comp vs Evo3 Comp in other threads, but I’m not going to comment if let’s say the ER has additional pressure drop or not bc I haven’t driven it or tested it.

What I can say is there is no noticeable additional lag with the Evo3, and Wagner even go out of their way with actual data to show the pressure drop is less than their other IC’s.

[pal]

@ZM2 I was kidding about my earlier comment. Like you, I am most confident about things I've tested / experienced and/or know people who have and I've see the results from them.

I'm still not convinced that the Evo 1 or 2 Comps won't simply work on a stock or stage 1 car. I've read your posts a while back, sounds like I need to find them and get refreshed.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by pal

The more I think about this and the discussion we're having here, convinces me that the Forge and aFe are certainly not going to cut it even with stock power on 90°F ambient temp days.

You are absolutely correct, they will not.

Originally Posted by pal

The Evolution Racewerks seems like it will do the trick for a stock or stage 1 car - I like the large frontal area and thinner core to get more fresh air to charge air by keeping more of it exposed to ambient. And the weight will likely strike a liveable balance between the larger stepped bar/plate units and the lighter Wagner Comp tube/fins.

I didn't check on the weights, but I'll make sure on my next update to review measurements and weight.

Originally Posted by pal

I still don't agree with your thinking on tube/fin and Wagner's Comp 1 / 2 line of Intercoolers. I don't see why a larger tube/fin won't work when the stock smaller one works in most situations.

I didn't want to get completely technical, but because of their their construction type, Tube and Fin intercoolers don't have the fin density, or the modular ability like Bar and Plate ICs can.

The Evo 2 is regularly bested by the ATM, CSF, and DO88, including a test sponsored by (or performed by) Wagner, with nothing objectively 'better' besides saving 7lbs.

Originally Posted by pal

Evo3 seems overkill for sure and not a fan of the install and "changes" needed to the car. Plus it likely has pressure drop for stock or stage one, enough to be annoying.

I can't speak to the pressure drop, but if it's a concern, the DO88 should be a consideration. It offers some of the best pass through performance and superior cooling.

Originally Posted by pal

AmouroRay, what's the weight of your VRSF Comp 5"?

I'm not home, but I can try to get pictures and weight later tonight.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ZM2

You don’t need the Evo3 for your application, but it doesn’t have any additional lag. In fact, Wagner lists it as having less pressure drop than their Evo2 IC’s.

Just don’t want this idea to start cropping up as we’re discussing all the IC options. Whether the other large race intercoolers have additional lag, IDK.

This is true. I don't have enough reviews to be certain, but reports are that the Evo 3 has no additional lag.

The VRSF Race is said to have a "little" to none.

Originally Posted by ZM2

The whole point of Amuro’s breakdown is there is all kinds of speculation and assumptions out there about the various IC’s, when data and performance are what matter. That approach is what has steered you away from the aFe IC.

I’ve contributed by showing stock vs Dinan vs Evo2 Comp vs Evo3 Comp in other threads, but I’m not going to comment if let’s say the ER has additional pressure drop or not bc I haven’t driven it or tested it.

What I can say is there is no noticeable additional lag with the Evo3, and Wagner even go out of their way with actual data to show the pressure drop is less than their other IC’s.

This is it.

I haven't driven on every single configuration - but I have messaged users privately, spent HOURS pouring over logs, and reading the engineering and science behind ICs.

OP - I simply am not a fan of the Wagner for it's performance and price point. Every intercooler I recommended have had great on throttle response and provide better cooling.

[Pray for Mojo]

Can vouch for the ER, have had it for 3 years now. It runs about 10-15f higher than ambient in most situations and I feel no lag on Stage 2 93. I was driving in -25f the other week and I was getting IAT of -15f on the freeway. Wished I could log in that weather.

The construction is really solid, we get a ton of gravel on the roads here in winter and the fins aren't smashed to shit like the factory stuff.

Only thing to consider, you have to pull the front bumper to install it. I diy'ed it and it wasn't bad but it's a bit more work than the smaller stepped designs.

[pal]

Thanks Pray For Mojo. I ordered the ER Intercooler in hard anodized black and their charge pipes as well. X-ph had a deal on the combo so I pulled the trigger.

Didn't realize a bumper pull is needed since the stepped ones just install without that. No sweat though. I'll do it and post up pics of the process when I do.

[Pray for Mojo]

Originally Posted by pal

Thanks Pray For Mojo. I ordered the ER Intercooler in hard anodized black and their charge pipes as well. X-ph had a deal on the combo so I pulled the trigger.

Didn't realize a bumper pull is needed since the stepped ones just install without that. No sweat though. I'll do it and post up pics of the process when I do.

This video will give you a good idea of what you're up against. Pulling the bumper is fairly easy just make sure if you have parking sensors, someone is there to help unplug them once it pulls off.

I bought the same black anodized and it's held up really well. It's also super stealthy looking in black and doesn't advertise that the car is modded.

[3t3p]

DO88 provide great email support in my experience and have flow logs of their product. It is cheaper and better made than CSF looking at the mounting points in particular.

The stock intercooler is a tiny thing I was shocked once it was out the car!

[AmuroRay]

Good morning.

Would anyone with an ER intercooler provide me with its weight and fin density, please?

If you a Wagner, can you please measure the fin density as well?

[Pray for Mojo]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Good morning.

Would anyone with an ER intercooler provide me with its weight and fin density, please?

If you a Wagner, can you please measure the fin density as well?

ER fin density 18-20 fins per square inch

https://www.bimmerfest.com/threads/e...review.896552/

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Pray for Mojo

ER fin density 18-20 fins per square inch

https://www.bimmerfest.com/threads/e...review.896552/

I got 16

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=27282136

(thank you btw)

[Pray for Mojo]

ER claims 18-20 on their website. I'm sure they have a special way of calculating it off the best location or something.