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      01-30-2021, 03:43 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
To be fair, there's way more options available now than there was back in 2014. A bunch of new turbos coming out, and other modifications that all can help with the problems.

It's an uphill battle for sure. But I'm not scared to take it on.

Worst case I end up with 500+ WHP on the street and have a detuned map for the track.
Yes that's true, because there was no cooling options in 2014 lol. Actually tuningwerke had some stuff that I did get.


New turbos still likely will not help, because the radiator is so fricken small. The only mods I have seen released that will really help is the CSF race spec radiator which requires an AC delete, but this alone will not be able to support 500whp because it only adds more volume not more surface area. You'll likely need water sprayers + larger aux rads. But at 500whp you'll also need a custom oil cooler as well.

I personally don't like different maps on the street and track, I like consistency so the same tune on the street and track. That way I will always be familiar with the cars throttle feel and how it behaves, and it won't feel like I have to relearn the car on track.

But overall I wish you luck on your build, and look forward to watching your youtube videos.
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      01-30-2021, 03:50 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daleb View Post
For sure i agree with everything you are saying. Obviously ethanol can help combat cylinder temps much better over 93 so thats pretty much a given at this point. Meth injection could be used for purely cooling purposes too which is another option for the track.

I think we know for sure that a better flowing turbofold at the same psi vs stock will have lower back pressure and temps. It would be nice to see some numbers though. I look forward to seeing the results from Edios and zm2's cars on track.

I too have been around the n55 since 2014 and feel like the platform has came along a lot since then, especially over the last few years. Hopefully things carry on progressing.
Correct high ethanol mixes has been shown to reduce coolant and oil temps by up to 20 degrees F. I don't like meth injection because of the roll over risk and having a flammable fluid in your car, I personally like distilled water injection + ice cubes.

Absolutely a better turbofold will result in lower cylinder temps, but it wont matter if your goals are in the 500 range and you are not going to hack up your car making it full race spec to solve cooling. If you are looking for a full bolt on or minor fabrication solution it would be a huge waste of money to get a stage 3 turbo to target around 400 whp. At that point are you even flowing enough air to justify a better flowing turbo fold?

It would definitely be nice to see numbers, but too bad our cars don't have exhaust manifold pressure and temp sensors. I can't remember if this is true, but does our cars spoof EGT numbers or are they legit? Can't wait to see Edios's car on track I hope it does well but I suspect he will need an oil cooler upgrade, I am also a big fan of EFR turbos.


Yeah I hope the n55 platform will progress but it seems like the b58 and s58 are going to take over soon.
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      01-30-2021, 03:56 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Oh dang so your new generation diff had issues too, not exactly confidence inspiring lol. What slicks do you use on track?

Was it replaced under warranty?
R7’s. Now I just use sticky 200TR tires.

It was replaced under warranty. The dealer originally thought it was the driveshaft, but that didn’t fix it. Then they looked at the half shafts and found the metal in the diff when they pulled those.

Was it the slicks & the track and some launch control launches? IDK, but I doubt it would have happened just putting around town!
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      01-30-2021, 04:22 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
R7’s. Now I just use sticky 200TR tires.

It was replaced under warranty. The dealer originally thought it was the driveshaft, but that didn’t fix it. Then they looked at the half shafts and found the metal in the diff when they pulled those.

Was it the slicks & the track and some launch control launches? IDK, but I doubt it would have happened just putting around town!
Yeah likely it was the slicks lol, my FRS broke alot of stuff (axles, transmissions, etc) with slicks. When I heard you said slicks I was like oh no that's gonna put alot of stress on the diff, especially with launches and your insane 500wtq at low rpm.
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      02-01-2021, 12:40 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
PS2/TTE550- If I wanted 500+ whp I'd probably get one of these. Likely the TTE550 b/c my impression is there's less lag b/c of the modified turbofold, and it's capable of a touch more power.
Can you point me to anywhere where I can find out more about the modified turbofold on the TTE550?
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      02-01-2021, 01:08 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by CalvinNismo View Post
Can you point me to anywhere where I can find out more about the modified turbofold on the TTE550?
https://tteglobal.com/bmw/1-series/e...e-turbocharger
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      02-01-2021, 01:44 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by CalvinNismo View Post
Can you point me to anywhere where I can find out more about the modified turbofold on the TTE550?
Turbofold isn't modified, from what TTE says it's just a higher flow turbine. Pure does the same thing with a bored out turbine housing and larger turbine wheel. However the ps2 has an even more bored out compressor housing so it is as wide as the turbo inlet and it has a new 9 blade compressor wheel which is really nice. So out of the stage 2 options ps2 will make the most power and flow the most air from all the enhancements I see. But it will be more laggy than the TTE because it is optimized for max flow whereas TTE is optimized for max spool speeds.


Either way at 500 whp both of these will likely have crazy exhaust back pressures because the exhaust manifold is stock. The only way around this is with the new stage 3's with a cast exhaust manifold.
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      02-01-2021, 02:04 PM   #74
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So...about that pure turbo? 😂
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      02-01-2021, 02:50 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalvinNismo View Post
Can you point me to anywhere where I can find out more about the modified turbofold on the TTE550?
Listen to F87source, not me.

Altho, when I asked TTE directly about some of the 460 & 550 differences about 6mo ago, they said this: "TTE550 has a machined manifold and bigger exhaust turbine wheel for more flow"

Last edited by ZM2; 02-01-2021 at 02:57 PM..
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      02-01-2021, 03:34 PM   #76
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Let’s not forget the differences in spool with a EFR vs PS2
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      02-01-2021, 05:20 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Turbofold isn't modified, from what TTE says it's just a higher flow turbine. Pure does the same thing with a bored out turbine housing and larger turbine wheel. However the ps2 has an even more bored out compressor housing so it is as wide as the turbo inlet and it has a new 9 blade compressor wheel which is really nice. So out of the stage 2 options ps2 will make the most power and flow the most air from all the enhancements I see. But it will be more laggy than the TTE because it is optimized for max flow whereas TTE is optimized for max spool speeds.


Either way at 500 whp both of these will likely have crazy exhaust back pressures because the exhaust manifold is stock. The only way around this is with the new stage 3's with a cast exhaust manifold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Listen to F87source, not me.

Altho, when I asked TTE directly about some of the 460 & 550 differences about 6mo ago, they said this: "TTE550 has a machined manifold and bigger exhaust turbine wheel for more flow"
Thanks both, I did think the TTE550 was 'just' a hybrid, in the same way the Pure Stage 2 is 'just' a hybrid, but was curious at the mention of the modified turbofold. Not to worry!
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      02-01-2021, 05:37 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Listen to F87source, not me.

Altho, when I asked TTE directly about some of the 460 & 550 differences about 6mo ago, they said this: "TTE550 has a machined manifold and bigger exhaust turbine wheel for more flow"
They likely mean machining the exhaust manifold, in that the turbine side has the housing machined out wider for a larger turbine wheel - like most stage 2 hybrids. However the restriction in the turbo manifold lies in the volute where the exhaust collectors merge and get separated into 2 streams for the twin scroll set up. That area is really tight on the factory manifold and there's no way to machine that area because you'd have to cut the manifold in half, and also the tubular walls are too thin there so no machining can be done.


TTE just does the basic bore out the exhaust side turbine housing + larger turbine wheel, then bore out the compressor housing + larger compressor. There's no way they did any exhaust manifold work unless they casted a new one which they clearly didn't.
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      02-01-2021, 06:07 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by cookiesowns View Post
Let’s not forget the differences in spool with a EFR vs PS2
Gotta love the way an efr spools.
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      02-01-2021, 11:50 PM   #80
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This notion keeps bugging me but is a bit too much of a hassle/expensive to pull off, but if it works it could buy the n55 m2 a lot of cooling headroom on the coolant side while keeping the ac.

1) Get the arm intercooler. The reason why this is so vital is because the design of this intercooler does not have the large portion that sticks out and sits underneath of the radiator. This means a larger radiator could fit.

2) Get the S55 radiator supports

3) Get the S55 radiator or upgraded s55 radiators on the market (CR racing is the only one I currently know of). This should be a bolt in solution on our cars and will give us alot of radiator surface area + volume, and should allow us to push into the 450-500whp range without issue.


I don't know who would be willing to try this out because it will not be cheap, but it would be awesome to see.
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      02-02-2021, 01:38 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
This notion keeps bugging me but is a bit too much of a hassle/expensive to pull off, but if it works it could buy the n55 m2 a lot of cooling headroom on the coolant side while keeping the ac.

1) Get the arm intercooler. The reason why this is so vital is because the design of this intercooler does not have the large portion that sticks out and sits underneath of the radiator. This means a larger radiator could fit.

2) Get the S55 radiator supports

3) Get the S55 radiator or upgraded s55 radiators on the market (CR racing is the only one I currently know of). This should be a bolt in solution on our cars and will give us alot of radiator surface area + volume, and should allow us to push into the 450-500whp range without issue.


I don't know who would be willing to try this out because it will not be cheap, but it would be awesome to see.
If you followed TYspeeds build, his cooling issues really only came in when he started pushing 25 minute open lapping at 450whp+

IIRC his biggest issue was the oil cooling, so he beefed up the aux oil cooler and went with CSF full setup and replaced the stock water pump with a larger one.

Honestly I think with Ethanol, dropping your coolant mix down to be more water and a solid tune that will back things off to prevent thermal overrun will more than suffice most HPDE’s

Are you guys experiencing cooling issues already?
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      02-02-2021, 02:26 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by cookiesowns View Post
If you followed TYspeeds build, his cooling issues really only came in when he started pushing 25 minute open lapping at 450whp+

IIRC his biggest issue was the oil cooling, so he beefed up the aux oil cooler and went with CSF full setup and replaced the stock water pump with a larger one.

Honestly I think with Ethanol, dropping your coolant mix down to be more water and a solid tune that will back things off to prevent thermal overrun will more than suffice most HPDE’s

Are you guys experiencing cooling issues already?
I have looked at tyspeed's thread, and more importantly his videos where you can see the data. His coolant temps always go close or to limp mode more often than his oil temperatures, also his car doesn't have an AC condensor or a front bumper bar making it easier to get more air to the radiator. He didn't have an aux oil cooler, he just V mounted a CSF boss oil cooler.

This is also what I see:
1) Oil temps are easy to solve because you can throw a massive oil cooler onto it and you won't have a problem, also look at ZM2's logs, it is mostly coolant not really oil temps that are the issue.

2) Coolant temps are the major issue from every m2 thread I have been seeing, oil gets hot yes - but coolant causes limp modes first.

3) Yeah a good custom tune + alot of E85 should help, but alot more cooling surface area is needed for the coolant side of things.

4) Also note I have seen some users with the full D088 cooling setup on the stock turbo over heat on track, OG shark iirc.
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      02-02-2021, 06:47 AM   #83
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Coolant temps are the killer. Whether with the CSF radiator & oil cooler, and do88 aux radiator and running mostly water with wetter and half E85 (my setup), or Tyspeeds completely custom setup.

The Evo3 has brought the max ambient-IAT delta down to 25-27F vs 55-60F from the Evo2, but I still need to push it on track in the summer to see how everything holds up.

Last edited by ZM2; 02-02-2021 at 07:06 AM..
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      02-02-2021, 09:53 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
55-60F from the Evo2.
You were seeing 55-60F over ambient on the track with the EVO2? Yikes. I was averaging 15-30F over ambient resulting in 95-120F IAT's with the EVO2 on the street. I didn't get a chance to test the EVO3 before I sold it.
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      02-02-2021, 10:02 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by nothingman View Post
You were seeing 55-60F over ambient on the track with the EVO2? Yikes. I was averaging 15-30F over ambient resulting in 95-120F IAT's with the EVO2 on the street. I didn't get a chance to test the EVO3 before I sold it.
Yup. I had the same temp deltas on the street as you with the Evo2, except when I would do back to back highway pulls/logs and hard braking events (AP Racing) to stress test maps and temps. Then I’d still see 50-55F over ambient with the Evo2.

The Evo3 is doing great (drops to 10F above ambient when starting a 3-4-5 pull, no IAT rise in 3-4, 4-5F rise in 5, maxes out at 25-27F above ambient after about 10 back to back 3-4, 3-4-5 pulls with hard braking in between, but I still need to see what the improvement is for the car on track in summer.

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      02-03-2021, 04:09 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
I have looked at tyspeed's thread, and more importantly his videos where you can see the data. His coolant temps always go close or to limp mode more often than his oil temperatures, also his car doesn't have an AC condensor or a front bumper bar making it easier to get more air to the radiator. He didn't have an aux oil cooler, he just V mounted a CSF boss oil cooler.

This is also what I see:
1) Oil temps are easy to solve because you can throw a massive oil cooler onto it and you won't have a problem, also look at ZM2's logs, it is mostly coolant not really oil temps that are the issue.

2) Coolant temps are the major issue from every m2 thread I have been seeing, oil gets hot yes - but coolant causes limp modes first.

3) Yeah a good custom tune + alot of E85 should help, but alot more cooling surface area is needed for the coolant side of things.

4) Also note I have seen some users with the full D088 cooling setup on the stock turbo over heat on track, OG shark iirc.
I have to admit.. it's been a while I've talked to tyspeed.. nonetheless dug into the OG N55 cooling system..

that explains why the beefier coolant pump helps.. I guess it's just a combination of a small radiator, small bumper, and the opendeck nature of the N55 that just puts more strain on the cooling system. Nonetheless the OG M2 also missing an entire aux radiator..

My guess is a M2C bumper will help a ton, hood relief should help too, as well as the 1000W radiator fan from the M4 GT4 + more aggressive cooling setpoints. Obviously the biggest upgrade would be getting both the Aux radiator & Main radiator from the M2C retrofitted too.

With a small amount of fab work, might even be able to stack the aux oil cooler with the side rad..

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=17_1256
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      02-03-2021, 01:49 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by cookiesowns View Post
I have to admit.. it's been a while I've talked to tyspeed.. nonetheless dug into the OG N55 cooling system..

that explains why the beefier coolant pump helps.. I guess it's just a combination of a small radiator, small bumper, and the opendeck nature of the N55 that just puts more strain on the cooling system. Nonetheless the OG M2 also missing an entire aux radiator..

My guess is a M2C bumper will help a ton, hood relief should help too, as well as the 1000W radiator fan from the M4 GT4 + more aggressive cooling setpoints. Obviously the biggest upgrade would be getting both the Aux radiator & Main radiator from the M2C retrofitted too.

With a small amount of fab work, might even be able to stack the aux oil cooler with the side rad..

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=17_1256
Haha I'm glad we can have you on board thinking about this stuff too! The more minds the better.

Yeah tyspeeds is selling his m2 so I don't think he will ever be back here.

Yeah I would love to put a beefier coolant pump on the m2, just don't know if the mounting area is big enough or if we will need to upgrade wiring and fuses to deliver more power.

But yes I agree the small radiator and bumper openings do not help, however the openings are really only small on the lower 2 fender vents. I too agree the m2c bumper will help with aux rad cooling, but you can just remove the lower side fender ducts on the og m2 and then you get gigantic openings directly to the radiator, so you can do that if you don't want to buy a new bumper. I also agree holding venting will help with air flow and thus improve cooling if you don't have a huge air pocket building up at the radiators. I also agree a 1000 watt me gt4 fan will help, but how will we retrofit that especially since the intercooler clips onto the fan and will we need new power delivery relays.

I disagree with the fact that the m2 is missing an aux radiator, it is not it is located by the driver side lower fender vent and plumbed via the radiator inlet and outlet. It feeds to the coolant heat exchanger likely to help cool oil temps and coolant temps before reentering the main radiator, and coolant speeds are boosted via a 300 watt aux coolant pump. Tyspeeds said this didn't exist in his main thread likely because he stripped the entire car including these parts and forgot they existed when he required aux radiators. This has been heavily examined on another forum via technical documents, and I have been under my car and have followed the aux radiator hoses that follows under the steering rack. Aux pump can be found under the heat exchanger just pull the passenger fender liner. You can't see it from the engine bay which sucks if you ever have to replace this.


I always thought open decks cool better because the entire water jacket is free for coolant flow whereas the closed deck blocks reduce flow as the top portion of the water jacket is now reduced with block material.


But yes I think we need to get the m2c radiator (need either a air to water intercooler or the potentially the arm unit)+ dual aux radiators on the side. Then a larger csf boss style oil cooler mounted behind the kidney grills. There is no room to stack oil coolers unless you remove the fender ducts and move the radiators up really close to the bumper and likely modify the wheel liner.
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      02-03-2021, 02:21 PM   #88
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F87source Agreed all this would help fix engine cooling for those of us pushing more power, especially with something like the Pure 800 (thread namesake). Altho, I’m not willing to do most of it.

Could you clarify your statement below? Are you asking me to cut off my lovely M2 bumper fangs, or remove some ducting behind the bumper? I did leave the two duct/scoops on the aux radiator and oil cooler bc I figured it helped channel/speed air across them.

“I too agree the m2c bumper will help with aux rad cooling, but you can just remove the lower side fender ducts on the og m2 and then you get gigantic openings directly to the radiator, so you can do that if you don't want to buy a new bumper.”

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