[Poochie]

Originally Posted by BigKutta

Polar Opposites? That's a reach. I would just say two options. Even this BMW guy is using a DCT

Okkkky.. Drifting would naturally be easier with a DCT, as your main focus is not losing control. I'm not sure what the video proves..

I don't know if you ever driven a manual transmission vehicle before but the experience is completely different from a DCT, paddles or not.

From taking off and balancing a clutch pedal from stalling, to choosing the right or wrong gear; it's all your call, for better or worst.. There is simply no substitution, if that's your thing..

With a DCT, it's basically the computer throwing you a bone, allowing a modicum of control, for the sole sake of mimicking the experience of manual transmission operation but on it's own, can accomplish the task 10 times more efficiently.

A dirtier comparison is; using the DCT paddles is like receiving a handjob; sure it's nice, in theory and it can get you to completion but you can't help thinking to yourself; I could do this much better on my own.. Move over

DCT has its unique advantages and if I could of been able to have two cars, one would surely be a ZF8 or DCT but since I could choose one; I'll stick with the third pedal.

[bri1042]

I've had 2 ZF8's. The first was the non-Sport ZF8 in my '13 328i. The second was the "sport" programming ZF8 in my '16 340i. If you didn't know that they were near-identical hardware (I think there was a minor revision between the two), you wouldn't necessarily guess that they were just programmed differently. I disliked the earlier one. It shifted too early and despite being dandy on upshifts, there was noticeable delay on downshifts. The 340i's version had much less downshift lag, and I would call it a bit better at dropping a couple of gears unexpectedly than my current DCT (in auto mode).

The truth of the ZF8's effectiveness is in the programming. It's a massively efficient and well-built piece of hardware. All the manufacturers program them a bit different. I drove a Jag XE not long ago, and the downshifts were slower than the old one I had in the 328, and it was slower on upshift, too. It was very smooth, so it was clear why. Even with the paddles, it was just very smooth. It was clearly on purpose.

So, long story short, I wouldn't make any assumptions about any particular ZF8 impression without driving it. My current DCT is much more enjoyable in manual mode, but in auto mode, my 340i's ZF8 was overall a better transmission (so, I just don't really use auto mode much with my DCT).

[NEfan508]

I have manual, it's fine for me because I only drive her a few times a month (not enough hours in the day) but as a daily in my city's traffic going just 1st to 2nd for an hour isn't what this machine was intended for.

As a fun car manual transmission makes 100% sense but as a daily around a big city no thanks dct for sure AND a sunroof!, I can't believe how dark and closed in I feel, a little crack opened would be much more pleasurable IMO

Truth is after over a year of ownership I only have 2200 miles (I should shut up) my new x5 has over 2500 miles and it's less than a month old, I'm definitely a creampuff

Edit: it's not because it's winter and the m2 is sleeping, I put a winter set on and it's been a very mild winter in New England

Edit edit, my x5 cost more but I don't give a damn where I park it or road conditions, planning on keeping maybe 5 years'ish my m2 is staying with me until I expire (bought with my teen son and did euro delivery)

[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by BigKutta

Polar Opposites? That's a reach. I would just say two options. Even this BMW guy is using a DCT

The BMW Performance Center uses DCTs, and no (or extremely few) manuals.
1. Few (only a small % of those even going thru their classes) know how to drive a manual. Especially the younger crowd.
2. Less chance of student screwing up a clutch.
3. No one cared about the heel-toe lessons in an M School. PS: I failed this miserably.....
4. As pros they all can drive manuals but know the DCT is faster.
So they switched.

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Okkkky.. Drifting would naturally be easier with a DCT, as your main focus is not losing control. I'm not sure what the video proves..

I don't know if you ever driven a manual transmission vehicle before but the experience is completely different from a DCT, paddles or not.

From taking off and balancing a clutch pedal from stalling, to choosing the right or wrong gear; it's all your call, for better or worst.. There is simply no substitution, if that's your thing..

With a DCT, it's basically the computer throwing you a bone, allowing a modicum of control, for the sole sake of mimicking the experience of manual transmission operation but on it's own, can accomplish the task 10 times more efficiently.

A dirtier comparison is; DCT is like receiving a handjob; sure it's nice, in theory and it can get you to completion but you can't help think to yourself; I could do this much better on my own.. Move over

DCT has its unique advantages and if I could of been able to have two cars, one would surely be a ZF8 or DCT but since I could choose one; I'll stick with the third pedal.

It proves nothing besides its another option and has its advantages, not a "polar opposite" as you claim. Yes, I drove only manuals for 20 years of my life, and love them and understand the additional element of engagement with the car. Like I mentioned earlier, every one has a reason for what they choose. Technology has moved forward in every way, and for many, DCT is an excellent option, and hence present in many supercars.

[wavyyyy]

When I'm sitting in bumper to bumper traffic I have no regrets that I chose the DCT, but sometimes when I'm booking it I'm a bit sad I didn't get to row through the gears.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by Poochie

I don't know if you ever driven a manual transmission vehicle before but the experience is completely different from a DCT, paddles or not.

From taking off and balancing a clutch pedal from stalling, to choosing the right or wrong gear; it's all your call, for better or worst.. There is simply no substitution, if that's your thing..

I've been driving manuals for 36 years. I still have a manual car as well as my M2C. You can teach anyone to drive manual in under an hour. The harder part is to teach them what gear to use, at what time, how and when to brake and understand cornering lines. Changing gear in a manual is a skill that, ironically, becomes automatic within a couple of days.

I'm just more annoyed that DCT will be gone soon in BMWs. Just when they got it so right too. Oh well.

One thing I will agree is that I do not like automatics at all. I like the control of changing my own gears. The faster the better.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by Davil

I've been driving manuals for 36 years. I still have a manual car as well as my M2C. You can teach anyone to drive manual in under an hour. The harder part is to teach them what gear to use, at what time, how and when to brake and understand cornering lines. Changing gear in a manual is a skill that, ironically, becomes automatic within a couple of days.

I'm just more annoyed that DCT will be gone soon in BMWs. Just when they got it so right too. Oh well.

One thing I will agree is that I do not like automatics at all. I like the control of changing my own gears. The faster the better.

Fair enough, enjoy

[JCZ5]

Automatics and automated manuals will only get faster as technology improves. However, having a manual will be timeless. So unless you're focused on in the moment lap times or you simply love automated manuals, I would go for the manual.

Couple of case studies:
1. Ferrari F1 transmission - when this was released, everyone thought it was lightening quick and it got rave reviews. Fast forward to today, and it is considered a weak point. Manual transmissions of that era are holding on much more value and more sought after.

2. BMW SMG transmission - there where some decent reviews in the beginning and the precursor to modern day DCT. It was on the M3 CSL due to its speed of shifting. However, we all know what happened to this transmission and it's appeal...

The current ZF torque converter transmissions are pretty quick and almost on par with DCT in some respects. In a few years, I won't be surprised if the autos will be at the same level to the current generation of DCTs. Or maybe in the next cycle, BMW will come out with the next gen DCTs that will blow the current ones out of the water. So with dual clutch or auto, the question is when a faster one will come out to make the previous gen seem obsolete.

With manual transmission, it is always current and focus on the joy of manually shifting gears. Manual transmission in a car 50 years ago vs. today all share the same fun. That cannot be said of automated manuals or autos.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by JCZ5

With manual transmission, it is always current and focus on the joy of manually shifting gears. Manual transmission in a car 50 years ago vs. today all share the same fun. That cannot be said of automated manuals or autos.

Ironically I find older manuals a lot more fun. The new ones have too many nannies, but I guess this is the world we live in.

For me, the best of both worlds is an old manual and a modern DCT then decide what mood you are in for the day.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by Davil

One thing I will agree is that I do not like automatics at all. I like the control of changing my own gears. The faster the better.

As carry over from our ongoing discussion in a separate thread. . . I agree 100%.

I think a great many PDK/DCT owners consider the manual option to be a gimmick, of sorts, designed to attract MT enthusiasts. Nothing could be further from the truth, as the manual mode provides the greatest of MT benefits . . . it allows you to control shift points (where you live in the power band).

The whole 'turbo' revolution has really changed things for many modern drivers as, no doubt, the turbos provide access to more low-end torque than NA counterparts.

As such, for better or for worse, drivers do not need to wind engines out to access the power band. In other words, controlling shift points and 'finding' the heart power band is not on the list of priorities or interests for many . . . as access to low-end torque suffices.

I would like to say I disagree wholeheartedly and could go on for couple pages as to why . . . but it would only represent one enthusiast's opinion, and I am not here to try and convince anyone else of what they should prefer

///AVM

[F87EVO]

[QUOTE=mtoosexy;25866449]

Originally Posted by TheoriginalM2

I believe both transmitions are fine . You wont be disapointed with any of the two. My view is that the DCT is the best of both worlds since its an automated manual transmition , and [COLOR="Sienna"]not an automatic transmition[/COLOR] .

[SIZE="4"]waaaaaat?[/SIZE]
Apologize in advance, im a little annoyed before hopping on tonight and maybe a little tipsy. I overheard a silly argument earlier today between two 20 year-olds at the bimmer shop.
If you press the gas and the car changes gear for you... its an automatic. If there is no third pedal, I don't think u can call it anything but what it is.
don't flame... I know what a DCT does and enjoy driving it very once in a while... but lets not kid ourselves. Own that fact that it's an automatic, there is no shame in that. If that's what you like then more power to you. Be loud, proud, drive that automatic like you stole it!!!!!

[QUOTE=mtoosexy;25866449]

Originally Posted by TheoriginalM2

I believe both transmitions are fine . You wont be disapointed with any of the two. My view is that the DCT is the best of both worlds since its an automated manual transmition , and [COLOR="Sienna"]not an automatic transmition[/COLOR] .

[SIZE="4"]waaaaaat?[/SIZE]
Apologize in advance, im a little annoyed before hopping on tonight and maybe a little tipsy. I overheard a silly argument earlier today between two 20 year-olds at the bimmer shop.
If you press the gas and the car changes gear for you... its an automatic. If there is no third pedal, I don't think u can call it anything but what it is.
don't flame... I know what a DCT does and enjoy driving it very once in a while... but lets not kid ourselves. Own that fact that it's an automatic, there is no shame in that. If that's what you like then more power to you. Be loud, proud, drive that automatic like you stole it!!!!!

Hey ! Ofc i can understand what you're saying ! But the DCT its not really an automatic neither a manual transmition . Its both. Take a look

. Again Im not saying its auto or manual . In 2020 yes , you dont really need a 3rd petal to consider a car "manual" . Have a nice day bro !

[M2Cmtl]

Both gearboxes are great, but DCT is an automatic. Get over it. I'm not sure why some people can't admit this.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by f31mtl

Both gearboxes are great, but DCT is an automatic. Get over it. I'm not sure why some people can't admit this.

F31

If a driver prefers the engagement of using a clutch and moving through the gearbox in a coordinated pattern, then you are correct. . . there is no substitute for a true MT.

If, on the other hand, a driver’s desire is to control shift points and where they live in the power band – as is my primary interest – then I respectfully disagree with your statement. DCT manual mode provides every but the ability of a true MT in stated regard.

///AVM

[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by f31mtl

Both gearboxes are great, but DCT is an automatic. Get over it. I'm not sure why some people can't admit this.

The more accurate term is automated manual. That is splitting hairs but in truth the automatic portion functions differently than a traditional automatic. There is no creep, you definitely feel a clutch engagement, the shifts are more direct than any automatic and BMW programs the manual functions like an MT (holding gears at redline, etc). I use manual mode a lot. It's really just using a paddle to operate the clutch and effect a gear change.

[Conissah]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

If, on the other hand, a driver’s desire is to control shift points and where they live in the power band – as is my primary interest – then I respectfully disagree with your statement. DCT manual mode provides every but the ability of a true MT in stated regard.

///AVM

True, but even torque converter trannies can do this now. A pull of the left paddle or a push on the lever, and it's an instant down change. I agree that the BMW DCT, and even PDK, are automatics in the sense that they shift for you, but modern autos are light years ahead of autos from a decade ago, and that's what a lot of people don't quite get. I haven't driven a BMW DCT car, but the PDK is simply sublime, it's absolutely fantastic, by far the best auto I have ever driven with. Coming up to a corner on the brakes, it knows what gear I wanted to be in, downshifted for me, and was ready for me to get on the power exiting. The shifts were instantaneous, it quite literally blew my mind. Be that as it may, I don't think I'd ever pick a DCT/PDK car over a 6MT.

If I was trying to be the absolute fastest on the track, this is the only caveat, it would have to be a dual clutch. I cannot compete with the accuracy of a proper dual clutch, and rather than focusing on clutch operation and selecting the correct gear and shifting quickly, I could focus simply on driving the car and what it was doing. For the MOST fun, I would chose 6MT, and in 99% of scenarios I am glad I did chose the third pedal, but trying/training to be a racecar driver, the dual clutches are the way to go.

All of this is opinion though, and there are many reasons for choosing either. My father, for example, is a die hard manual guy, but he isn't getting any younger, and breaking his left leg twice definitely doesn't help things. He would be an advocate for a proper auto setup.

[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by Conissah

True, but even torque converter trannies can do this now. A pull of the left paddle or a push on the lever, and it's an instant down change. I agree that the BMW DCT, and even PDK, are automatics in the sense that they shift for you, but modern autos are light years ahead of autos from a decade ago, and that's what a lot of people don't quite get. I haven't driven a BMW DCT car, but the PDK is simply sublime, it's absolutely fantastic, by far the best auto I have ever driven with. Coming up to a corner on the brakes, it knows what gear I wanted to be in, downshifted for me, and was ready for me to get on the power exiting. The shifts were instantaneous, it quite literally blew my mind. Be that as it may, I don't think I'd ever pick a DCT/PDK car over a 6MT.

If I was trying to be the absolute fastest on the track, this is the only caveat, it would have to be a dual clutch. I cannot compete with the accuracy of a proper dual clutch, and rather than focusing on clutch operation and selecting the correct gear and shifting quickly, I could focus simply on driving the car and what it was doing. For the MOST fun, I would chose 6MT, and in 99% of scenarios I am glad I did chose the third pedal, but trying/training to be a racecar driver, the dual clutches are the way to go.

All of this is opinion though, and there are many reasons for choosing either. My father, for example, is a die hard manual guy, but he isn't getting any younger, and breaking his left leg twice definitely doesn't help things. He would be an advocate for a proper auto setup.

With the DCT on an autocross course, I tried its automatic mode. It was pretty good at picking the the right gear but I disliked it up-shifting in places I would have just held a gear approaching a corner. I normally do my own shifting on track or autocross just for that extra control of the torque available.

One other note, I often use the gear shift lever off the line for 1-2 shifts, especially if in a turn. So much easier than hunting for the paddle. But once going its paddles 90% of the time.

[TrentMeister]

Mt has far better noises-engagement-street cred and will undoubtedly be more valuable in the future. Dct is too predictable/boring to me. The DCT m2c I drove at Mtown I thought was straight up boring with the lack of engagement. Also the DCT in the m2c is substantially smoother than in m4c. I much preferred the single clutch slam feel that the m4 gave me to the smooth shifting of the m2. Just my 2c. Anyone agree?

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by LBbluem2

Mt has far better noises-engagement-street cred and will undoubtedly be more valuable in the future. Dct is too predictable/boring to me. The DCT m2c I drove at Mtown I thought was straight up boring with the lack of engagement. Also the DCT in the m2c is substantially smoother than in m4c. I much preferred the single clutch slam feel that the m4 gave me to the smooth shifting of the m2. Just my 2c. Anyone agree?

Put the M2C in the fastest shift mode and you can get the slam feel.

[TrentMeister]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

Put the M2C in the fastest shift mode and you can get the slam feel.

I did that, it just kind of seemed to roll into the next gear smoothly. Reminded me of pdk.

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by Conissah

True, but even torque converter trannies can do this now. A pull of the left paddle or a push on the lever, and it's an instant down change. I agree that the BMW DCT, and even PDK, are automatics in the sense that they shift for you, but modern autos are light years ahead of autos from a decade ago, and that's what a lot of people don't quite get. I haven't driven a BMW DCT car, but the PDK is simply sublime, it's absolutely fantastic, by far the best auto I have ever driven with. Coming up to a corner on the brakes, it knows what gear I wanted to be in, downshifted for me, and was ready for me to get on the power exiting. The shifts were instantaneous, it quite literally blew my mind. Be that as it may, I don't think I'd ever pick a DCT/PDK car over a 6MT.

If I was trying to be the absolute fastest on the track, this is the only caveat, it would have to be a dual clutch. I cannot compete with the accuracy of a proper dual clutch, and rather than focusing on clutch operation and selecting the correct gear and shifting quickly, I could focus simply on driving the car and what it was doing. For the MOST fun, I would chose 6MT, and in 99% of scenarios I am glad I did chose the third pedal, but trying/training to be a racecar driver, the dual clutches are the way to go.

All of this is opinion though, and there are many reasons for choosing either. My father, for example, is a die hard manual guy, but he isn't getting any younger, and breaking his left leg twice definitely doesn't help things. He would be an advocate for a proper auto setup.

The difference between DCT and a torque converter auto is the DCT is an automated manual. It will roll back/forward and drive just a MT in manual mode.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

Test drive similar spec'ed cars, one manual, one auto. See which one fits your needs.
Side note: From what i've read on this forum, the 6 speed cars are holding their value more than similar auto cars. I would imagine that's due to rarity but who knows?

It the states they're not more rare, but owners may be less likely to resell them