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      08-05-2020, 09:26 PM   #67
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Meh, it's a Chevy, so even if the numbers were identical it would make no difference.

American cars have their feel, and their strengths, and that really hasn't changed, with the exception of them adding handling as a feather in their cap (through none other than sheer brute force).
Still amazing to me how the perception persists among some enthusiasts that American cars get by on brute force...

Here's an instrumented comparison test of a 2019 Camaro 2SS 1LE versus a 2019 M2 Competition.

(Note that this is not the 650 hp supercharged ZL1 of this thread topic, but the non-supercharged 455/455 hp/torque LT1 V8. Draw your own conclusions how the ZL1 would fare against the M2C.)

Anyway, the article contradicts the notion that the Camaro gets by on brute force. Quite the opposite actually. The M2C is the faster car on the straights, while the Camaro is faster through every turn.

Subjectively, the conclusion of the article is that the M2C is more the muscle car of the two, the editors calling it to the "COPO Camaro by way of Leipzig assembly." Meanwhile, they call the Camaro the "E36 M3 for modern times." Go figure.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...camaro-ss-1le/
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      08-05-2020, 09:33 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wjones14 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Meh, it's a Chevy, so even if the numbers were identical it would make no difference.

American cars have their feel, and their strengths, and that really hasn't changed, with the exception of them adding handling as a feather in their cap (through none other than sheer brute force).
Still amazing to me how the perception persists among some enthusiasts that American cars get by on brute force...

Here's an instrumented comparison test of a 2019 Camaro 2SS 1LE versus a 2019 M2 Competition.

(Note that this is not the 650 hp supercharged ZL1 of this thread topic, but the non-supercharged 455/455 hp/torque LT1 V8. Draw your own conclusions how the ZL1 would fare against the M2C.)

Anyway, the article contradicts the notion that the Camaro gets by on brute force. Quite the opposite actually. The M2C is the faster car on the straights, while the Camaro is faster through every turn.

Subjectively, the conclusion of the article is that the M2C is more the muscle car of the two, the editors calling it to the "COPO Camaro by way of Leipzig assembly." Meanwhile, they call the Camaro the "E36 M3 for modern times." Go figure.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a25754283/2019-bmw-m2-competition-vs-2019-chevrolet-camaro-ss-1le/
Subjectively.
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      08-06-2020, 09:30 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Meh, it's a Chevy, so even if the numbers were identical it would make no difference.

American cars have their feel, and their strengths, and that really hasn't changed, with the exception of them adding handling as a feather in their cap (through none other than sheer brute force).
Quote:
Originally Posted by wjones14 View Post
Still amazing to me how the perception persists among some enthusiasts that American cars get by on brute force...
...

Subjectively, the conclusion of the article is that the M2C is more the muscle car of the two, the editors calling it to the "COPO Camaro by way of Leipzig assembly." Meanwhile, they call the Camaro the "E36 M3 for modern times." Go figure.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...camaro-ss-1le/
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Subjectively.
Believe it or not, I'm on your side. After 3 years of 2 Series ownership and 2-1/2 years owning a Camaro, I'm ready to go back to the BMW...

But just curious about your point of reference - have you driven a 6th gen Camaro 1LE or ZL1? Have you driven either your M2 or a Camaro on the track?

I've driven both an M235i and a Camaro 1LE on track. Both cars at Palmer Motorsports, Lime Rock, and Watkins Glen. Doesn't make me an expert, and I've never driven an M2, but those track days and 5 years of personal ownership are my experience with the 2 Series and the Camaro.

Anyway, I just took exception to your condescending dismissal "Meh, it's just a Chevy," and your reluctant admittance to the Camaro's handling, by adding the caveat "through none other than sheer brute force." Both subjective opinions as well, btw.

I thought the Road & Track article objectively showed that the Camaro wasn't beating the M2C on the track by brute force, since the M2 was significantly quicker on the straights, but significantly slower in the turns. Maybe you read it another way?

But yeah, now I'm looking to go to an M2C. The reason is simple: the 2 Series is much more livable on a daily basis. And that's where we agree.

My subjective opinion, if I'm allowed, is that the Camaro is much more fun to drive than the M235i. The steering and brakes both have much better feel in the 1LE, especially on the track when the cars are nearing their limits. The Camaro feels more racecar-like at all times, from the loud V8 exhaust note to the raw communication with the road, i.e. somewhat rough ride.

But, do I always want a racecar-like feel? No. Most of the time I just want a car that's fun, but comfortable. And with a badass nature to it. I don't regret trading the M235i for the Camaro for one minute. The M235i was the most comfortable car I had ever owned, but I wanted something with more of a wild streak. The Camaro fit that bill, but I'm finding that it's a little too wild. I think the M2C is exactly what I need, without the compromises of the Camaro.
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Last edited by wjones14; 08-06-2020 at 09:44 AM.. Reason: spelling
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      08-06-2020, 10:56 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by wjones14 View Post
My subjective opinion, if I'm allowed, is that the Camaro is much more fun to drive than the M235i. The steering and brakes both have much better feel in the 1LE, especially on the track when the cars are nearing their limits. The Camaro feels more racecar-like at all times, from the loud V8 exhaust note to the raw communication with the road, i.e. somewhat rough ride.

But, do I always want a racecar-like feel? No. Most of the time I just want a car that's fun, but comfortable. And with a badass nature to it. I don't regret trading the M235i for the Camaro for one minute. The M235i was the most comfortable car I had ever owned, but I wanted something with more of a wild streak. The Camaro fit that bill, but I'm finding that it's a little too wild. I think the M2C is exactly what I need, without the compromises of the Camaro.
I admit that I have never driven a 1LE, but I put 140,000 miles on my ‘17 SS.
I completely agree with you on the raw, race car feel of the Camaro.
It’s much louder, cars shakes during idle, and that V8 burble/rumble on down shifts provide a much more of a purist experience than the M2.
I can only imagine the 1LE being much closer to an M car in terms of handling and performance.

What surprised me the most was that the M was a much more docile, refined ride when daily driven. MINUS the suspension.
The mag suspension in the Chevy was much more compliant, comfy to a point where it almost felt like a sporty Cadillac.
I’m sure it’ll be different in the 1LE with beefier sway bars & firmer tuned shocks/springs, but still hard to imagine it being firmer than the M2C.

The outward visibility that everyone complains about never bothered me one bit.
Truth be told, I think I prefer the cozy feeling of the cabin wrapped around me with shorter windows.

What I liked more on the M2 was the refinement. Every material and especially the gauges make the M a much more luxurious ride IMO.
The firmer ride transmitted more road feel and the car felt more stable around corners. More confidence-inspiring, if you will.

The cabin is well put together in the M, noticeable when I crank up the music.
With the sub in the trunk, there was no rattle whatsoever, when the Chevy sounded like it’s going to fall apart.
Isolated case, maybe. But I can only speak from my personal experience.

I do miss the creature comforts like the vented seats, HUD.
What I don’t miss is the constant CEL(misfire), oil leaks, and malfunctioning HVAC.
With my M2 being fairly new, I’m not sure what kind of troubles it’ll give me,
but hopefully not as much to make me get tired of the ownership after 3 years.
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      08-06-2020, 11:22 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wjones14 View Post
But just curious about your point of reference - have you driven a 6th gen Camaro 1LE or ZL1?
Yes, both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wjones14 View Post
Have you driven either your M2 or a Camaro on the track?
No, and won't. But I have an Exige, which, forgive me, would negate the previous two. Once you drive a car like an Exige on a track, the fat girl down the street, no matter how fast she pumps, just won't do it for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wjones14 View Post
Anyway, I just took exception to your condescending dismissal "Meh, it's just a Chevy," and your reluctant admittance to the Camaro's handling, by adding the caveat "through none other than sheer brute force."
Fat brute, all of those Chevy's, including the Corvette. Just my opinion.

The thing you have to understand about me to understand my comment is that it's more about the experience than the numbers. And to me, the experience of these cars on track just won't cut it.
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      08-06-2020, 11:51 AM   #72
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Lotus is garbage. KTM X-Bow or Ariel Atom V8. Everything else is a fat pig. I win the internet today. :-)
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      08-06-2020, 11:57 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by nearwater4me View Post
I admit that I have never driven a 1LE, but I put 140,000 miles on my ‘17 SS.
I completely agree with you on the raw, race car feel of the Camaro.
It’s much louder, cars shakes during idle, and that V8 burble/rumble on down shifts provide a much more of a purist experience than the M2.
I can only imagine the 1LE being much closer to an M car in terms of handling and performance.

What surprised me the most was that the M was a much more docile, refined ride when daily driven. MINUS the suspension.
The mag suspension in the Chevy was much more compliant, comfy to a point where it almost felt like a sporty Cadillac.
I’m sure it’ll be different in the 1LE with beefier sway bars & firmer tuned shocks/springs, but still hard to imagine it being firmer than the M2C.

The outward visibility that everyone complains about never bothered me one bit.
Truth be told, I think I prefer the cozy feeling of the cabin wrapped around me with shorter windows.

What I liked more on the M2 was the refinement. Every material and especially the gauges make the M a much more luxurious ride IMO.
The firmer ride transmitted more road feel and the car felt more stable around corners. More confidence-inspiring, if you will.

The cabin is well put together in the M, noticeable when I crank up the music.
With the sub in the trunk, there was no rattle whatsoever, when the Chevy sounded like it’s going to fall apart.
Isolated case, maybe. But I can only speak from my personal experience.

I do miss the creature comforts like the vented seats, HUD.
What I don’t miss is the constant CEL(misfire), oil leaks, and malfunctioning HVAC.
With my M2 being fairly new, I’m not sure what kind of troubles it’ll give me,
but hopefully not as much to make me get tired of the ownership after 3 years.
Appreciate your thoughts! You're right about the ventilated seats and the Head-Up Display - those would be the two most missed comfort features if I switch to an M2C. I dismissed the ventilated seats at first, but now I just automatically turn the switch on as soon as I start the car. The HUD is incredible too. I rarely look at the speedometer or tach any more - it's too inconvenient! And on the racetrack the HUD is almost indispensable, as it has F1-style shift lights that converge together as they go from green to yellow to red.

Quick story about the HUD: I took the Camaro to Watkins Glen 13-Jul-2020. Here's a 5-minute video from my GoPro. I had the speed warning set to 75 mph on the trip up, and forgot to turn it off during the first on track session. So once I exceeded 75 mph, that speed limit warning took over the HUD, and I could no longer see the RPM bar. It was like I was lost in that first session.

(@VisualEcho you might be interested in the video as there's a Lotus Evora on track with me. Not as exotic looking as your Exige, but special car nonetheless.)
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      08-06-2020, 04:36 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by wjones14 View Post
Appreciate your thoughts! You're right about the ventilated seats and the Head-Up Display - those would be the two most missed comfort features if I switch to an M2C. I dismissed the ventilated seats at first, but now I just automatically turn the switch on as soon as I start the car. The HUD is incredible too. I rarely look at the speedometer or tach any more - it's too inconvenient! And on the racetrack the HUD is almost indispensable, as it has F1-style shift lights that converge together as they go from green to yellow to red.

Quick story about the HUD: I took the Camaro to Watkins Glen 13-Jul-2020. Here's a 5-minute video from my GoPro. I had the speed warning set to 75 mph on the trip up, and forgot to turn it off during the first on track session. So once I exceeded 75 mph, that speed limit warning took over the HUD, and I could no longer see the RPM bar. It was like I was lost in that first session.

(@VisualEcho you might be interested in the video as there's a Lotus Evora on track with me. Not as exotic looking as your Exige, but special car nonetheless.)
Hey, nice work at Watkin's Glen! That place is cool and I hope to visit one day. All the Armco and walls remind me of Nurburgring!

Speaking of Exige, I was playing cat and mouse with one on the 'Ring just yesterday in my OG M2 with one of the Cup versions. Quick little mouse!

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Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 08-07-2020 at 02:13 AM..
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      08-07-2020, 09:39 AM   #75
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Looks like you had a lot of fun!
My housemate from college had a series 2 Exige S with the supercharged Toyota I-4, and although the handling and raw feel of a racecar was phenomenal, I hated the shifter feel and that horrendous rev hang.
It felt like a kit car with a terribly tuned engine.
I wonder if they’ve come a long way since.
I bet the ones with the V6 would be a blast to drive.
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      08-09-2020, 09:42 AM   #76
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So the weird shifting wasn't just me adjusting to a different car's clutch point? I wondered what was going on with the rev match when I test drove the ZL1. I couldn't tell if it was on or off and the paddles on the steering wheel just confused me more. Ok, maybe it was my fault too haha. I think the revmatch on the M2 has made me a very lazy manual transmission driver. It's too easy.
I think that tells me daily driving the Camaro would be a bad idea, especially with all the stop and go traffic I can sometimes run into.
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      01-15-2021, 08:52 PM   #77
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Wow this thread really blew up. OP here. Update to thread. I drove both cars often.

The ZL1 was about the same price as the M2c and the ZL1 LE was about 6000 more. Negligible difference overall pricing wise. Driving the ZL1 LE is an experience, so much power and the sounds it makes are incredible. Handling is fantastic. It's a better performance car in every respect and draws a lot of attention. It was definitely the more exciting car to drive, almost like driving a super car. It is the car I WANT to pick and seems like the better choice. As a second car I would pick the ZL1 LE no doubt.

BUT I ordered an M2C that is being built currently as my primary car. So why did I pick the M2C even though the performance and experience is lacking vs the ZLE?

Here's my reasons why:
1) Practicality: Larger back seats and larger trunk
2) Daily driving is a lot more reasonable in the M2C, specially for winter in Michigan.
3) Doesn't attract as much attention, this may be a con for some but daily driving to work I really don't want to attract a lot of attention and kind of stay low key
4) I don't have to worry about throwing away the stock tires, the ZLE just comes with slicks essentially while the M2C tires are usable in the nice weather
5) Financing rate was 2% better for BMW
6) Things you interact with on a daily basis like the infotainment are a bit better on M2c
7) BMW dealers are generally better than chevy dealers when it comes to post purchase service, a ZLE is a specialty car and many Chevy technicians rarely get a chance to work on it. Most ZL1 owners prefer to do their own routine services such as oil changes. Whereas with BMW I can assume they know the drill with the M cars as they work on a lot of those routinely.
8) The interior space is generally nicer in the M2c
9) smaller car, fits in my garage better

Last edited by photorph; 01-27-2021 at 11:30 PM..
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      04-03-2021, 05:03 PM   #78
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Hi all, been quite some time since this post has seen some light. Ironically I find myself in this exact same position today April/2021. Where both a fully optioned M2C will cost $70k USD and a ZL1-1LE will cost $75k USD.

I have now been in the M2C manual, Camaro SS 1LE and soon to be C7 ZO6. Sadly there are no ZL1-1LES even near me.

Has anyone driven both at this point wanting to provide feedback? Currently this is where I stand.

ZL1 - 1LE
Absolute head turner
Easy to mod, massive power stock
Handling is exceptional if you can visually see and understand it
Exterior of the car is absolutely shocking and demands attention

I hate the interior if I am honest, the tilted HUD, the cheap controls, the gauges and rear seat space.

This is the only thing stopping me from ordering one.

M2C
Gorgeous car inside and out, very classy
Easy to mod and can make great power
Handling is also exceptional especially with adjustable mods to change steering feel, this is a huge plus for me
Tech, features and interior are absolutely unmatched

The sad here is, its not a brutal v8
Its not a car that people point at and wonder what it is


I am going to try the C7 ZO6, I am wondering if this will change my mind about visibility and interior feel. As of right now, I am heavily leaning to the M2C.
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      04-04-2021, 03:26 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris the man View Post
Hi all, been quite some time since this post has seen some light. Ironically I find myself in this exact same position today April/2021. Where both a fully optioned M2C will cost $70k USD and a ZL1-1LE will cost $75k USD.

I have now been in the M2C manual, Camaro SS 1LE and soon to be C7 ZO6. Sadly there are no ZL1-1LES even near me.

Has anyone driven both at this point wanting to provide feedback? Currently this is where I stand.

ZL1 - 1LE
Absolute head turner
Easy to mod, massive power stock
Handling is exceptional if you can visually see and understand it
Exterior of the car is absolutely shocking and demands attention

I hate the interior if I am honest, the tilted HUD, the cheap controls, the gauges and rear seat space.

This is the only thing stopping me from ordering one.

M2C
Gorgeous car inside and out, very classy
Easy to mod and can make great power
Handling is also exceptional especially with adjustable mods to change steering feel, this is a huge plus for me
Tech, features and interior are absolutely unmatched

The sad here is, its not a brutal v8
Its not a car that people point at and wonder what it is


I am going to try the C7 ZO6, I am wondering if this will change my mind about visibility and interior feel. As of right now, I am heavily leaning to the M2C.
The drivetrain and suspension is where the money goes in ZL1. Interior in my opinion isn’t bad, but I may be bias.

I hardly notice the carbon bits on the inside of my M2, and in about a month I will be selling the BMW and getting a SS 1LE as my next track toy. To me there is nothing wrong with the interior of the Chevy. I will miss I-Drive, as it is best in its class, but the V8 will more than make up for it.

P.s. the infotainment screen is tilted to avoid dust collecting on it, which I notice a lot on the iDrive screen. I think it’s a clever way to remove the issue, though it looks a little weird.

Let us know your thoughts on the C7 Z.
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      04-06-2021, 08:31 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris the man View Post
Hi all, been quite some time since this post has seen some light. Ironically I find myself in this exact same position today April/2021. Where both a fully optioned M2C will cost $70k USD and a ZL1-1LE will cost $75k USD.

I have now been in the M2C manual, Camaro SS 1LE and soon to be C7 ZO6. Sadly there are no ZL1-1LES even near me.

Has anyone driven both at this point wanting to provide feedback? Currently this is where I stand.

ZL1 - 1LE
Absolute head turner
Easy to mod, massive power stock
Handling is exceptional if you can visually see and understand it
Exterior of the car is absolutely shocking and demands attention

I hate the interior if I am honest, the tilted HUD, the cheap controls, the gauges and rear seat space.

This is the only thing stopping me from ordering one.

M2C
Gorgeous car inside and out, very classy
Easy to mod and can make great power
Handling is also exceptional especially with adjustable mods to change steering feel, this is a huge plus for me
Tech, features and interior are absolutely unmatched

The sad here is, its not a brutal v8
Its not a car that people point at and wonder what it is


I am going to try the C7 ZO6, I am wondering if this will change my mind about visibility and interior feel. As of right now, I am heavily leaning to the M2C.
OP here, I edited my original post. I've driven both. You can see my conclusion. In the end it comes down to what you are looking for.
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      05-21-2021, 03:09 PM   #81
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Maybe this was covered elsewhere, but the lack of camber adjustability in the M2/C is just stilly. You can dial in more than -2.0 front camber with the Camaro. If you're doing time trials or something like that and need to stay class legal, this is huge in terms of advantage, enjoyment and tire life.

Not to mention no problems with TMPS nannies, weird driving modes that interfere with feel and feedback, and all the other stuff that comes along with modern BMW these days.

The Camaros are seriously impressive cars. And you can get many of them with a track warranty. Buddy of mine dropped a valve in his while on track. Chevy had a new motor in the car by the next weekend. No charge.

Meanwhile my service reps at BMW are always suspiciously asking me if I track the car...
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      06-11-2021, 12:16 PM   #82
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I have been trying to give Chevy dealerships money for a new SS 1LE, and I've had no luck. The 2021 production run has been stopped due to chip shortage, and it's been nearly impossible to get a new 1LE. There are a few around, but with a ~$4,000 markup. Gently used 2019 and 2020 models have been going for $5,000 over original MSRP. 2018 models with 20k miles are selling at brand new MSRP prices. Crazy!

I'm at a loss what to do. No one knows when the production will resume. My local dealer told me my best bet is to wait till the window for '22 Model Year opens, but they can't even tell me which quarter of 2022 I can expect the car.

Looks like I will be missing out on the rest of 2021 track season.
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      06-11-2021, 01:44 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
I have been trying to give Chevy dealerships money for a new SS 1LE, and I've had no luck. The 2021 production run has been stopped due to chip shortage, and it's been nearly impossible to get a new 1LE. There are a few around, but with a ~$4,000 markup. Gently used 2019 and 2020 models have been going for $5,000 over original MSRP. 2018 models with 20k miles are selling at brand new MSRP prices. Crazy!

I'm at a loss what to do. No one knows when the production will resume. My local dealer told me my best bet is to wait till the window for '22 Model Year opens, but they can't even tell me which quarter of 2022 I can expect the car.

Looks like I will be missing out on the rest of 2021 track season.
Like this one? Very nice looking beast!
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5.M0NSTER3353.50
      06-11-2021, 02:35 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Daytona_550 View Post
Like this one? Very nice looking beast!
Awesome track car, and what a beast of a machine the Z/28 is!

I don't think I could do without the AC though.
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Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 06-11-2021 at 03:35 PM..
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      06-12-2021, 12:53 AM   #85
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M2 is a little tamer, better for daily driving. More usable back seats and trunk. But the Camaro is the better drivers car. No doubt. The chip shortage is absolutely screwing American manufacturers. I was trading in another car for a Durango SRT. No idea when they're getting them. Zero line of sight.
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      06-13-2021, 08:30 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by stefan View Post
M2 is a little tamer, better for daily driving. More usable back seats and trunk. But the Camaro is the better drivers car. No doubt. The chip shortage is absolutely screwing American manufacturers. I was trading in another car for a Durango SRT. No idea when they're getting them. Zero line of sight.
Agreed on all accounts.

I found a 2018 MY, with under 6k miles, and 3 oil changes. 1SS 1LE. Pulled the trigger on it today. Good examples are getting harder to find. I think the markup on it was about $4k, but I didn't care.

If I get in line for a '22 model year and place an order now, I would be waiting till Q3 2022. I'm not willing to give up all of '21 and most of '22 track seasons. So $4k is a price I'm willing to pay to be able to hit the track this July.

So this will be my new track toy for a while.

Looking forward to smashing all my previous Personal Best lap times at the local tracks
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2018 Camaro SS 1LE. Because race car!

"Redline a day keeps the mechanics away"

Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 06-13-2021 at 09:29 PM..
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      06-13-2021, 10:02 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Agreed on all accounts.

I found a 2018 MY, with under 6k miles, and 3 oil changes. 1SS 1LE. Pulled the trigger on it today. Good examples are getting harder to find. I think the markup on it was about $4k, but I didn't care.

If I get in line for a '22 model year and place an order now, I would be waiting till Q3 2022. I'm not willing to give up all of '21 and most of '22 track seasons. So $4k is a price I'm willing to pay to be able to hit the track this July.

So this will be my new track toy for a while.

Looking forward to smashing all my previous Personal Best lap times at the local tracks
Congrats! Your personal bests are all soon to be toast.

I sold my 2018 2SS 1LE for $40K in April. It had 6800 miles, 3 oil changes, and rear diff fluid change. Like new condition. I was satisfied getting that much for it after owning it for 3 years, but a wholesaler bought it, so I assume he got even more.
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5.M0NSTER3353.50
      06-16-2021, 11:05 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by chris the man View Post
I hate the interior if I am honest, the tilted HUD, the cheap controls, the gauges and rear seat space.
This is the only thing stopping me from ordering one.
And there is nothing wrong with that logic. I can't imagine getting into a car and feeling like it belongs in a basic econobox. The interior is just as important as the exterior as you are interacting with it every time you drive the car.
Having to explain to people that ask why you paid so much money on a car that looks like crap when you get inside every time would be a PITA. "I swear it drives really well!"
On the flip side, that ZR1 1LE sure looks dope exterior wise and would make an awesome track car.
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