02-17-2020, 08:21 PM | #23 | |
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As for laptimes vs Camaro's, GT350's etc. they are certainly faster cars. However take away their tire advantage and the gap narrows significantly. The M2C is massively under tired from the factory, which is part of what makes it so fun. Oh and yes there is a be all and end all BMW engine.. its called the S85. |
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02-17-2020, 09:07 PM | #25 | |
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How about everyone just drives what they like? A Mustang PP2 is cheaper, faster and better sounding than my M2C. It's also bigger (outside) smaller (inside) less refined and has suspension geometry that doesn't give it much (if any) self steer when the thing gets sideways. Plusses and minuses. Nobody is an idiot for choosing either car. |
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02-18-2020, 12:50 AM | #26 |
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My rant is that in 2020 getting 400hp from a turbo 6 is not really a feat of engineering anymore. A 2011 Mustang beat that number already. Sure, they have their advantages, but I for one am expecting more from the "ultimate driving machine".
Unless we just start calling it the overhyped thus overpriced ultimate comfort machine. Rant over.
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02-18-2020, 02:49 AM | #27 | ||
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Well...not with a 3.0L Turbo 6. It made 400 hp in 2011 with a 5.0L V8, just like BMW did ten years earlier. Quote:
But it's marketing schlock, just like how not a single person in the 90's actually loved anything a Toyota did for them. Anyway, it sounds like your point mostly boils down to "Don't be a fucking fanboy" which is something i'd agree with. But understand that an M2 Competition, for some people who do not live their lives under the exact same circumstances as you and who may have different wants and needs from a vehicle, really, really like that car. And they're not dumb for doing so, that's not a dumb/bad choice that they're making. That 20K premium over a mustang GT goes to real, tangible things. They may not be things that make the car faster, but if speed to price ratio is the only thing that matters, we're all idiots for not riding liter bikes 100 percent of the time. |
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02-18-2020, 03:29 AM | #28 | |
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I'm not saying that M2 or M2C are stupid choices. For my use case there are better options, and that's a personal choice. What I just don't understand is why so many "fan boys" on here act like the S55 is "superior" than any other motor, particularly ones with more cylinders or less turbos. The S in S55 doesn't stand for Special. It is better that older BMW motors, but not as good as some other engines out that. And not as good as next gen BMW motors either.
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02-18-2020, 08:40 AM | #29 | |
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02-18-2020, 09:00 AM | #30 | |
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Also both Camaro and Mustang are underrated as proved by many dyno runs. Nearly 500 at the crank is the new standard for American V8s. Why is that so hard for BMW?? I know, I know. Emissions. But do I want to pay more for better emissions? Hell no. And apparently I don't have to! EDIT: Also, M2 CS starts at a RIDICULOUS $83k. Really? Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 02-18-2020 at 09:07 AM.. |
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02-18-2020, 11:46 AM | #31 |
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Yes, but the M2C is only 59k minus discounts. A mustang may get lower track times but on a twisty mountain switchback road it won't be fun.
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02-18-2020, 12:20 PM | #32 | |
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Sure a Mustang has more horsepower.. but take a look at the suspension components (basic stamped steel items), panel gaps, infotainment, interior quality.. not even factoring weight, size, practicality. I've driven basically every flavor of current mustang, including the GT350. The 350 is a riot no doubt, but once you remove the engine your still driving a huge, heavy, highly impractical car with horrid dealership experience. Your only criteria for a car seems to be whether it has a V8 in it and how much it costs. If that's the case go buy whatever flavor of muscle car you like, however the fact you can't comprehend factors outside of that is a reflection on you not BMW. I think your posting on the wrong forum honestly.. |
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02-18-2020, 01:56 PM | #33 | |||
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For me it's performance, performance, performance and all the other bullshit comes last. So you're right, I'm venting to the wrong crowd. I don't think I'm BMW's target market since I care about performance/value preposition above creature comforts.
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02-18-2020, 02:11 PM | #34 | |
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02-18-2020, 02:20 PM | #35 | |
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Sorry bro, if you know anything about cars you know that 10% hp increase you can bareley feel. And yes, even my little N55 can break rear wheels loose in 3rd when it's cold out. Also you don't make 400 to the tire. Just FYI. But I would be wrong, so let's see YOUR dyno results before I jump to conclusions.
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02-18-2020, 02:24 PM | #36 | |
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EDIT: If you can't feel a 50whp increase in power between the OG and the Comp, what makes you think you'll be able to feel the whopping extra 12whp that the Camaro and Mustang make over the Comp...? Honest question here. |
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02-18-2020, 02:42 PM | #37 | |
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Wait what? Lol, I think you just gave up your seat on on the high horse of morality right about there You crack me up! This is great, keep 'em coming!
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02-18-2020, 02:45 PM | #38 |
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Onto your second within minutes idiocracy, 405-365 is not 50, it's 40. And its not rear wheel HP, it's crank HP. Facts. Let's see how else you can embarace yourself tonight.
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02-18-2020, 03:00 PM | #39 | |
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I've worked in plenty of shops, and briefly on a GTR race team, to know a thing or 2 about HP. I was talking wheel horsepower there bud. Comp shows massive gains over the OG across the board, and almost 50 peak. Tell me again how the Comp is ONLY 10% more, or how the V8 counterparts (with their 12-15 more hp) would "wipe the floor" with the Comp... I have nothing else for you Mr Stig. You're clearly stubborn, and have already made your mind up, enjoy the Camaro or Mustang. This whole thread is way off topic. Last thing I'm replying to you. |
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02-18-2020, 03:15 PM | #40 | |||
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[/QUOTE]
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02-18-2020, 03:17 PM | #41 | ||
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[/QUOTE]
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02-18-2020, 04:12 PM | #42 | ||
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That said, it's about more than just weight. 100-200lbs is an amount that can be felt, but it's certainly not a huge difference maker when we're talking 3500+ lb vehicles. The bigger difference in handling has to do with the dimensions, wheelbase and suspension tuning. The BMW M2 simply feels more eager to change directions. But handling is subjective. I still however, contend that having no self steer (the steering wheel's tendency to "find" the right countersteer point on its own during a slide) is the biggest thing that gives me pause about the Mustang's handling. I have no concerns about the Camaro's handling. That car's chassis is properly good. Quote:
If the Mustang/Camaro had interiors that were bigger than the BMW 2-series I could maybe deal with their extra size. But as is....I just can't man. It's like they designed the car to be as big as possible on the outside, while making as poor use of those massive exterior dimensions as possible. Four adults legitimately fit in our cars. They do not in the Mustang/Camaro. And the BMW is dealing with an engine that's six cylinders long, not four (V8 = 4cylinders length wise.) Again, totally fair if these are not things you care about. But it's not just "badge snobbery and comfort" that's demanding the price premium. It's caring that the engineers took their time to play tetris correctly when designing the car. It's looking over my shoulder before changing lanes on the highway and thinking "I'm glad i can see that car in my blind spot over there instead of just the inside of my C-pillar." And yes, some of it is having an infotainment screen that isn't angled down in such a way that makes it hard to read under any and all conditions. It's just general care and thoughtfulness that went into designing the car, rather than a "good enough" attitude. I genuinely hope you enjoy your V8 when you head back stateside. You are more hardcore than I am in what you value in a daily driver and I respect that. But it is much more than simple brand snobbery that drives sales of these cars for many of us. |
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02-19-2020, 06:38 AM | #43 |
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Probably an outlier in this group, but I for one do not care for HP or lap times. Between the two, I look for the one that is most engaging and fun to drive.
I do not intend to take my car to the track and most of the time, I'm driving it very sensibly. And yet, I still would choose the M2C because it brings me the most fun.
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02-19-2020, 11:28 AM | #44 |
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I think this whole debate just proves more than anything that cars are an emotional purchase more than anything. You can try and talk about how you'd rather have 50 more hp instead of carbon fiber trim, or that the Mustang can beat the M2C around the track. But at the end of the day are you beating an M2C around the track in YOUR Mustang? If you arent then why even bring up that argument?
Cars are just about how they speak to you. My track car is a Honda S2000. its 2800lbs and only 245hp at the crank. 0-60 is 5.3 seconds if i'm REALLY good about it, which i'm not most of the time. There are plenty of cars faster around the track than that car. Remember the S2000 was a 45,000$ car when it was brand new. In todays standards thats the equivalent to a 70,000$ car. Can you imagine paying 70k for an S2000 when cars like the C8 Corvette or the Supra can be had for cheaper? However there will be some people who would. Cars speak to us on an emotional level. For me big american V8's sound great...but thats about it. Sure i'd love to own a Mustang GT one day. But its literally just for straight line speed. The car is too big for me, the interior too cheap, and doesnt feel as nimble as my S2000 even at twice the power. End of the day we all like what we like. Whether or not you can justify it, doesnt really matter. As long as we can justify it for ourselves and enjoy what we have...whats wrong with that? |
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