[Cope]

Originally Posted by Rossifumi

The ETK, original press releases and German site says Sequenzielle M Getriebe,I have no idea why they translate it into manual.

http://www.bmw.com/com/de/newvehicle...ngine_smg.html

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/austr...tem=node__4266

At least we can agree on something.

[bim2er]

Originally Posted by Cope

At least we can agree on something.

True

[shivaswrath]

Originally Posted by gthal

The DCT is fantastic... an amazing transmission that is worth every dollar... IF you want a DCT

I've had a DCT in one of my E92 M3's and my M4. Loved it in both applications and (this will be heresy for some) liked it more than the PDK in a 911 GTS I drove and almost purchased this summer. I'm getting a 6MT in my M2 but mainly because I want to go back to a MT for my next car... if I wanted the DCT experience again (which, by the way, is exceptional... my car is ONLY ever driven in manual mode), I wouldn't hesitate to pay the premium to add DCT to the car. So, it isn't whether it is "worth it"... it is... the real question is which transmission do you want and why. If you want instant upshifts, instant downshifts and lazy auto modes sometimes, then it's worth it.

A DCT, driven properly in manual mode, can be every bit as fun as a traditional MT because of the crispness, power delivery and it is absolutely engaging (unless you drive in auto mode). It is also great in traffic. For me, I'm sticking with a MT because I haven't owned one since my C7 and E36 M3 track car and my wife wants another in the house too

If it weren't for my wife, I'd be driving an MT.
It's a mix of lifestyle and what you're using it for...if you have a mostly highway commute and your wife doesn't care, get the MT!

[mofomat]

Originally Posted by bim2er

Unfortunately, it would appear you are mistaken. I owned a E60 M5 with a SMG transmission. The name of the transmission in that car was Sequential Manual Gearbox. However it was perverted after that would not correct.

This could be similar to bimmers and beamers. Bimmers are BMW cars, beamers are BMW motorcycles. These terms existed before the birth of the 3 Series and arbitrary use of the terminology does not make it correct.

The following is from BMW AG's web site.

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...ngine_smg.html

And that's wrong.

It's without doubt Sequential M Gearbox. I owned an E46 M3 with the gearbox, and I remember this conversation coming up even then.

[PopsnBurbles]

If DCT for the M2 is a $550 option like it was for the 135i, then hell yeah it worth it! Of course, the inferior DCT in the 135 did not have drivelogic like the ones in the E9X M3. I have my fun in my daily route. I don't get bored with it. Most importantly, I like it a lot and I don't hurt my legs when driving 17 miles in two hours when I hit traffic in a hilly area.

If DCT is a $3000 option, I would not personally do it. I'd be more willing to master driving a stick befitting of what an M2 driver should be at. At the end of the day, the DCT is still an automatic.

[ORIGIN M.]

Yes !

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by PopsnBurbles

If DCT for the M2 is a $550 option like it was for the 135i, then hell yeah it worth it! Of course, the inferior DCT in the 135 did not have drivelogic like the ones in the E9X M3. I have my fun in my daily route. I don't get bored with it. Most importantly, I like it a lot and I don't hurt my legs when driving 17 miles in two hours when I hit traffic in a hilly area.

If DCT is a $3000 option, I would not personally do it. I'd be more willing to master driving a stick befitting of what an M2 driver should be at. At the end of the day, the DCT is still an automatic.

It is an automatic to you.

Not to me. Love it !

[Cope]

Originally Posted by mofomat

And that's wrong.

It's without doubt Sequential M Gearbox. I owned an E46 M3 with the gearbox, and I remember this conversation coming up even then.

Semi serious question- So what's the M stand for then? ///M? They just were like screw making a complete acronym?

There must be some vast misinformation out there; do a quick Google search of SMG gearbox and see what I mean.

[Hotrod99]

Originally Posted by PopsnBurbles

If DCT for the M2 is a $550 option like it was for the 135i, then hell yeah it worth it! Of course, the inferior DCT in the 135 did not have drivelogic like the ones in the E9X M3. I have my fun in my daily route. I don't get bored with it. Most importantly, I like it a lot and I don't hurt my legs when driving 17 miles in two hours when I hit traffic in a hilly area.

If DCT is a $3000 option, I would not personally do it. I'd be more willing to master driving a stick befitting of what an M2 driver should be at. At the end of the day, the DCT is still an automatic.

You've hit the nail on the head. Flicking a paddle no way makes this car a manual equiv; Not even close. It may not be an auto to some people but the sheer architecture of the gear box is in no way a comparison to a manual car. "Manual mode" as its refered to is just a glorified semi auto of flicking paddles up and down. Period!

[metrickid]

Originally Posted by Hotrod99

You've hit the nail on the head. Flicking a paddle no way makes this car a manual equiv; Not even close. It may not be an auto to some people but the sheer architecture of the gear box is in no way a comparison to a manual car. "Manual mode" as its refered to is just a glorified semi auto of flicking paddles up and down. Period!

[Hotrod99]

Originally Posted by Rossifumi

I'll drive the DCT as I originally mentioned when I started the thread and revert on my thoughts. Let's see how it fairs!!

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Hotrod99

You've hit the nail on the head. Flicking a paddle no way makes this car a manual equiv; Not even close. It may not be an auto to some people but the sheer architecture of the gear box is in no way a comparison to a manual car. "Manual mode" as its refered to is just a glorified semi auto of flicking paddles up and down. Period!

Huh? The DCT is, absolutely, a manual gear box from a mechanical sense. It can fundamentally be described as two separate manual transmissions (with their respective clutches) contained within one housing, and working as one unit. No torque converter like you would find in a planetary auto.

It is a manual transmission that has its clutches controlled by a computer rather than a 3rd pedal on the floor. Yes, it is an automated manual and no one is debating that but when you say the architecture is different, that suggests you don't understand there are clutch plates, gears and other components that are effectively the same as a traditional manual. The "architecture" as you suggest is nothing like a traditional automatic and effectively the same as the old school manual.

Maybe I misread you?

P.S. These debates, overall, are super fun Other than your left foot moving a pedal up/down vs the computer, how is the MT different in the M2 vs a DCT? As a matter of fact, the M2 (as with most modern MT cars) will rev match for you with the MT... computer controlled so no need to heel/toe which everyone who chest thumps about MT cars claims to be the holy grail

In my mind only, the main difference is whether your left foot engages/disengages a clutch vs. the computer in the car. Yes, that is a difference and to some, I suppose, that left foot defines their enjoyment. I understand the pleasure of doing this (hence why I'm buying the MT version) but some people make it out to be the be all/end all of everything and having owned both, it isn't. Heck, as mentioned, BMW, Porsche, GM, etc have even computerized heel/toe shifting for those who don't already know how to do it proficiently and that, IMO only, was one of the main reasons to have a traditional MT!!!

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

it's pretty sad how people can't drive manuals as daily drivers any more or are somehow not wanting to....

i've never sat in NYC traffic in the 1M and thought "i wish i had an automatic"....NEVER. and i drive a lot.....and daily drive it and am in heavy traffic very often as well as open roads.

people have forgot what it means to drive it seems! they just love luxurious tech and lazy comfort. the art of driving is dying quickly.

i think the M2 should be manual only too....

I don't think this kind of logic makes sense - choices are good, yes? So many people have chastised the M2 (and 1M before it) for the overall lack of choices, and this is a big one to get.

I have literally had 10 manual cars in my life - they are very fun and engaging, but they aren't for everyone all of the time. That's the point - just because someone would like the choice of having the DCT experience rather than the manual one doesn't mean that person is less of a driver or enthusiast.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by bim2er

IMHO, simply describing a DCT as an automatic transmission is a disservice to its capabilities. To me, it has far more technically in common with a manual clutch based transmission that you can allow to shift automatically. .

There's no disservice to describing something in a completely accurate way.

An automatic transmission is any transmission which, wait for it...shifts automatically.

A torque converter-based auto, an automatically actuated transmission more resembling a clutched "manual" box",), or a CVT, are all different types of automatic transmissions.

Calling it a DCT, DSG, or other form of direct-shift nomenclature is all that's needed to inform a consumer of what type of auto it is, and what positive (and negative) characteristics that type of trans usually has.

But to feel the need to correct someone (not you) who calls a DCT an "automatic"...

On planet earth, it damn sure is a type of automatic.

And we should remember, some of the best torque converter-based autos outperform some (especially earlier) direct-shift gearboxes. So you can't say across the board that one type of auto is better than another...that would be a "disservice"

[Cope]

Originally Posted by gthal

P.S. These debates, overall, are super fun Other than your left foot moving a pedal up/down vs the computer, how is the MT different in the M2 vs a DCT? As a matter of fact, the M2 (as with most modern MT cars) will rev match for you with the MT... computer controlled so no need to heel/toe which everyone who chest thumps about MT cars claims to be the holy grail

In my mind only, the main difference is whether your left foot engages/disengages a clutch vs. the computer in the car. Yes, that is a difference and to some, I suppose, that left foot defines their enjoyment. I understand the pleasure of doing this (hence why I'm buying the MT version) but some people make it out to be the be all/end all of everything and having owned both, it isn't. Heck, as mentioned, BMW, Porsche, GM, etc have even computerized heel/toe shifting for those who don't already know how to do it proficiently and that, IMO only, was one of the main reasons to have a traditional MT!!!

That's one of my biggest worries regarding the M2. I don't want to build up a habit of letting the car rev match for me and then get in any of my other non-revmatch cars and subconsciously forget to rev match, or vice versa and over-revmatch the M2. GM and Nissan have enough foresight to allow you to deactivate rev-matching independent of drive modes and I can't see why BMW can't bury that same option in idrive.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

I don't think this kind of logic makes sense - choices are good, yes? So many people have chastised the M2 (and 1M before it) for the overall lack of choices, and this is a big one to get.

I have literally had 10 manual cars in my life - they are very fun and engaging, but they aren't for everyone all of the time. That's the point - just because someone would like the choice of having the DCT experience rather than the manual one doesn't mean that person is less of a driver or enthusiast.

choices are fine....on a VW Golf...

On the 1M there was no choice and it was magic. On a Cayman GT4 there is no choice and it's magic. On an M2 I think there shouldn't have been a choice either. It separates something very specific from 'just another car'

I'm not an elitist....I like DCTs for what they are but certain cars need a manual.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

choices are fine....on a VW Golf...

On the 1M there was no choice and it was magic. On a Cayman GT4 there is no choice and it's magic. On an M2 I think there shouldn't have been a choice either. It separates something very specific from 'just another car'

How was it "magic" for the 1M to be MT only? It's magic in your opinion when someone wants a DCT but can't have it (even if they are better with a MT than you but just choose a DCT)? If the 1M had a DCT option it would suddenly be just like any other car Wow...

Is the 911 GT3 (which is FAR more performance, raw and direct than ANY car BMW makes today or in the last 10 years) less magical? Anyone who knows anything about cars would suggest a Ferrari 488, 911 GT3 and GT3RS and the Huracan are truly "magical" cars notwithstanding they don't even OFFER a MT.

Enough with the nonsensical, testosterone based chest thumping. It's archaic and narrow minded. Suggesting the 1M is more "magical" because it has only a MT is just... well... I won't say it but everyone other than you knows exactly what I mean

The DCT is a better transmission for high performance/track driving and there is little debate there. The MT is maybe a more engaging transmission for some people based on preference and, therefore, "better" for them. To suggest a car should only be a MT to make it more "magical" makes no sense because the MOST magical cars available today for most car enthusiasts are offered in both or only a DCT.

You should be upset if BMW stopped offering a MT but being bothered that it ALSO offers a DCT doesn't make sense. You should own as many MT's as possible because someday they won't exist... I hope that day is a LONG time in the future but it is inevitable... then be upset. Today, everyone can be happy other than people who think choice is a bad thing and that everyone needs to believe exactly what they believe.

Originally Posted by IEDEI

I'm not an elitist....I like DCTs for what they are but certain cars need a manual.

I agree... cars like the 1M, M2, M3, M4, etc need a MT. That doesn't mean they also shouldn't have a DCT too.

Edit: My apologies for the long winded rant... I just have issues with narrow minded thinking

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

choices are fine....on a VW Golf...

On the 1M there was no choice and it was magic. On a Cayman GT4 there is no choice and it's magic. On an M2 I think there shouldn't have been a choice either. It separates something very specific from 'just another car'

I'm not an elitist....I like DCTs for what they are but certain cars need a manual.

No, you're not an elitist, you're a "1Mist" - aka, anything outside of that formula is something that doesn't make sense or is a source of derision. It's a cool car man, but give it a rest.

Again, both cars are/will be good (1M and M2), but the fact that BMW is even offering the DCT on this car shows a greater commitment to the market segment and overall size/offering.

[Big Tuna]

BMW M car in 2026:

All Electric
No steering wheel (you can use the touchpad in front of you to make suggestions to the computer)
Plays engine sound through the stereo (already got this one)
No shifting, of course, how barbaric
Applies turn signals automatically
Select from 312 different M Logic driving modes.

yay driving!

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Big Tuna

BMW M car in 2026:

All Electric
No steering wheel (you can use the touchpad in front of you to make suggestions to the computer)
Plays engine sound through the stereo (already got this one)
No shifting, of course, how barbaric
Applies turn signals automatically
Select from 312 different M Logic driving modes.

yay driving!

Although I know your post is a bit of exaggeration, BMW will build what the consumer wants. It's business. Personally, I don't like seeing the self driving car being developed because that is a bit of what you are suggesting. I think it is a LONG way off but maybe I'm wrong.

[Big Tuna]

Originally Posted by gthal

Although I know your post is a bit of exaggeration, BMW will build what the consumer wants. It's business.

To a degree they will.

Though, they've now built 3 M cars with awful sounding exhausts and no one asked for that. (tolerated it, perhaps).

Also built the exhaust sound through the stereo feature that no one asked for (tolerated, perhaps).

Who knows maybe I'm wrong and that IS what the aggregate consumer wants, and the aggregate's tastes are just getting worse over time.

But I do wonder how much more BMW can chip away at the authenticity of the driving experience before the last of the driving enthusiasts give up on the brand altogether.

I guess until their E30's die.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by bim2er

I agree,

Many of those with an apparent preference for a manual transmission either fail to or chose to not acknowledge that there really are two different "automatic" technologies being discussed.

The typical conventional "automatic" transmission uses a torque converter to cause drive to engage rather than clutches. The torque converter is what is providing forward impetus at idle and causing the need to engage the brake. A torque converter based automatic has other undesirable characteristics for many enthusiasts. As drive is based on transmission fluid flow rather than a clutch, it is not a solid, but rather a fluid system. The loss of predictability of a "slush box" is what I don't want and would not buy.

A DCT transmission is a totally different transmission with the drive characteristics of a clutch based transmission. It has a Drive mode that provides automatic shifting of a clutch based transmission. Yes, you can't slip the clutch to get your car to behave in a particular way with a DCT, but the trade-off is a more efficient and more engaged (drive engaged not necessarily driver engaged) transmission.

SMG transmissions, the direct predecessor to the DCTs, don't creep at idle (E60 M5). I don't believe M DCTs do either.

SMG = Sequential Manual Gearbox

IMHO, simply describing a DCT as an automatic transmission is a disservice to its capabilities. To me, it has far more technically in common with a manual clutch based transmission that you can allow to shift automatically. I used to use the shift lever in the M5 almost as much as the paddles. That M5 certainly never got boring.

As others have stated, its just a driver preference.

I like to Dis the capabilities of a DCT .

A-U-T-O -MATIC !

Agree with you on it being a personal preference. And many have very personal reasons for choosing a DCT.

I am disappointed however by the fact that driver skill and even a lot of driver intuition regarding loading up of the chassis and drivetrain is not needed to drive a DCT. As an HPDE instructor its awfully disappointing to watch a student make a 5-3 downShift in a corner because they weren't even in the right gear entering the corner, and then of course they immediately click two gears down and have no clue how the DCT just saved them from flying off the roadway backwards.


And since the car just saved them by blipping and they didn't even feel it , it's nearly pointless to explain to them what happened.. It's not pointless of course, but very difficult for the student to even understand )


And yes, I do like that I I can get out of a snowdrift/mud/sand easier with feathering a clutch.