[omasou]

Originally Posted by caminator

Go and try both. Not saying its better but it is totally different.

+1

[gmzanatta]

Originally Posted by Ummm2

I agree. I'm buying an M2 but I still cant get my head around how the M2 can be so so much better just because of a slightly smaller wheelbase.

If it weighed materially less than a M4, then I could believe it.

All these journos just need a story to tell to justify their existence and they latched onto the M2.

That's the thing though: the M2 isn't better because of the shorter wheelbase, any one individual factor.

The M2 is great because of how they were able to integrate all of them, and it speaks volumes that, at the same weight as an M4, it can nearly outperform it's big brother in every way except straight line acceleration.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by Nine Lives

With the M2 what you see is what you get.

Firstly there are no trim options and only four colours to choose from.
The suspension is fixed and non adjustable unlike the F80/82 and takes the guess work out of which permutation is best of which there are a myriad of when combined with everything else that can be tweaked.Too much adjustability.

In essence BMW have returned to simplicity because of this and as a result have made a hugely popular car that has gone beyond their expectations.They may now have learned that big and choice don't necessarily equal better.

You can get the M4 with a fixed suspension, having less colors and trims isn't really simplicity, and I dont think they even said bigger is better, it's just that the entire market moved in that direction. M4 is not bigger than C63 or RS5, and its lighter than both as well.

[ClothSeats]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

You can get the M4 with a fixed suspension, having less colors and trims isn't really simplicity, and I dont think they even said bigger is better, it's just that the entire market moved in that direction. M4 is not bigger than C63 or RS5, and its lighter than both as well.

Apparently the steering and suspension difference is in the chassis tuning. Many people feel F80 does not have as linear a power delivery and is undertired which leads to less driver confidence. Also having the same amount of mass in a smaller footprint will give a more direct response.

[omasou]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

You can get the M4 with a fixed suspension, having less colors and trims isn't really simplicity

Not anymore.

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

and I dont think they even said bigger is better, it's just that the entire market moved in that direction. M4 is not bigger than C63 or RS5, and its lighter than both as well.

And there in lies the problem. Who cares what others are doing BMW should go back to making the "Ultimate Driving Machine" not a compare my specs to your spec car. Like we have said it is the combination and end result not a feature comparison. Didn't work for the PC market not working for the performance car market.

[jtodd_fl]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

You can get the M4 with a fixed suspension, having less colors and trims isn't really simplicity, and I dont think they even said bigger is better, it's just that the entire market moved in that direction. M4 is not bigger than C63 or RS5, and its lighter than both as well.

Or... you could get an M2 more cheaply and not mod it!

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by gmzanatta

And the plot thickens...guess no one likes Evans haha

Matt LeBlanc Reportedly Threatens to Quit as Top Gear Host

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/ma...pr=20553875903

The guy goes up in my estimation. He's no joey!

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

What I don't understand about M2 reviews, is this argument I keep hearing again and again: "Over the years M3 became too grown up and complicated, With M2 BMW takes us to simpler times, ike the BMW of 90s, lighter, RWD with a straight six and a manual transmission."

Chris Harris made the same exact argument, but everything he said in support of this can also be said for F8X. F8X is barely heavier than M2, it has a manual transmission, it is RWD and it has a straight six. M2 is not simpler, from what I know the only thing that is simpler about M2 is that it doesn't have M1 and M2 buttons. Seriously what exactly is simpler and more "raw" about M2? I'm not bashing the M2 or anything: compact size has its advantages, and even less power works somewhat better in some conditions (maybe better grip). But simplicity? Return to 90s? Seriously? This simplicity stuff became a useless buzzword every reviewer uses whenever BMW releases a smaller model.

I'd say it was the

Lack of configurable modes
Lack of adaptive, just a simple passive set up
Lack of options, simply take it like this
Lack of custom paints and full leather interiors

It's also not got CF driveshafts, shaped mirrors etc etc.

The M3/4 grown up argument I think comes much more from the size and power though than any of the above. The M3s size and power is like M3 of old. The M3 is now more akin to old M5 power and sizes.

Not saying any of this is correct or indeed actually a criticism but it's how I would interpret it.

[Nine Lives]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

You can get the M4 with a fixed suspension, having less colors and trims isn't really simplicity, and I dont think they even said bigger is better, it's just that the entire market moved in that direction. M4 is not bigger than C63 or RS5, and its lighter than both as well.

You're correct that the market moved in the direction of the larger car, they may not have said it but it's fair to think they probably thought it, in an almost frenzied dimension race war with each manufacturer out grossing each other with every model incarnation.The x6 springs to mind.

The M4 may not be bigger than the examples you have given but it's still too big for many,hence the gap available in the model line up that the M2 has filled.Many bemoan this as is evidenced when comparing the M2 with older models of M3,the acceptable cut off being somewhere along the lines of the E46 for example.

On a final note,the M3/4 has adaptive suspension as standard in the UK.

[ilovewagons]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

What I don't understand about M2 reviews, is this argument I keep hearing again and again: "Over the years M3 became too grown up and complicated, With M2 BMW takes us to simpler times, ike the BMW of 90s, lighter, RWD with a straight six and a manual transmission."

Chris Harris made the same exact argument, but everything he said in support of this can also be said for F8X. F8X is barely heavier than M2, it has a manual transmission, it is RWD and it has a straight six. M2 is not simpler, from what I know the only thing that is simpler about M2 is that it doesn't have M1 and M2 buttons. Seriously what exactly is simpler and more "raw" about M2? I'm not bashing the M2 or anything: compact size has its advantages, and even less power works somewhat better in some conditions (maybe better grip). But simplicity? Return to 90s? Seriously? This simplicity stuff became a useless buzzword every reviewer uses whenever BMW releases a smaller model.

Your opinion is entirely valid, and please don't take what I'm about to say as bashing the M4/3.

My problem isn't that the M4 exists, it's that there wasn't a less serious, more fun car available. It's not just a size war, it's a performance war as well. In their effort to extract more and more performance from a road car, BMW have gotten further and further away from that sense of playfulness and engagement they used to be famous for. It's a case of not being able to have your cake and eat it too. If you want 500hp and assloads of torque, and want to be able to put down great lap times, the steering needs to be about accuracy, rather than feedback, the suspension must be tuned for stability rather than playfulness, the compromises go on.

While this is fine, as long as we have choices, we haven't had the choice or an opportunity to buy a car that puts road going fun first (except m-performance optioned 228i and M135i/235i). Maybe you're just a better driver than me (more than likely!) but I felt like attacking a road or track in an F80/2 was about managing the car and trying not to die when what I wanted to do was enjoy the driving experience.

For me, as a road car, the M4/3 are too compromised in the direction of performance. There isn't enough engagement, fun and playfulness left in the chassis, which is why the competition pack improves the M4 exhaust and updates MDM to try and fix these problems. There's a reason why BMW didn't just whack on an extra 60hp and call it a day. Fun and engagement.

To me, simplicity is not building a Lada, simplicity is the avoidance of unnecessary complexity. Why do I need adaptive suspension and M buttons? The amount of money I've spent, I expect the car to be set up right already. Would you go to a 3 Michelin star restaurant and order a build your own topping pizza, or would you be there to experience something that should come to your table refined and well executed? You might be eating a meal that has been improved by modern technology, but that technology is, and should be, secondary to the experience and involvement. I think that in the M3/4 technology and inaccessibility of the car's performance dominate the experience, which is fine, but it's why people complain about the GTR and why it's not the kind of car for me.

Again, this is how I feel, and I'm happy that there is a car you're happy with, and now, there's a car I can be happy with. This is the kind of car I want BMW to keep building and I'm putting my money where my mouth is. Everyone wins, I think. Even though it was 3 months ago, I still remember getting into an M2 and within the first 5m of lining up to get on the track, the car talked to me and what it said was, "hi, let's have some fun!" And that without having to pay Porsche money. In truth, I was sold on the car then.

With BMW moving to AWD M-cars (again in an effort to extract more performance, at the expense of engagement and playfulness) it seems to only a matter of time before cars like the M2 (yes, 1M owners, this includes the 1M, put down your pitchforks and torches) disappear altogether.

[srleadjb]

Originally Posted by gtr

Chris Harris review are usually great and Top Gear seems to rather have him make faces than give us good info about how the car feels. Why are they trying so hard to mimic the three stooges?

When we see Chris Harris we expect Chris Harris. He is excellent at reviews if they only let him.

^^^ this

They are trying to make him funny when in fact he is great and funny on his own. I actually put weight on what Chris says and most of my favorite driving cars are his favorites too. I was really wanting to hear his opinion about the car but I guess I'll have to be satisfied with "brilliant."

Can't wait to get mine!

[filet.M2c]

Wasn't a huge fan of the M2 segment. Definitely preferred his youtube channel but it looks like he has started something new that is pretty much identical. Hope the M2 gets a slot.

http://www.topgear.com/videos/chris-...a-quadrifoglio

[jtodd_fl]

Originally Posted by ilovewagons

Your opinion is entirely valid, and please don't take what I'm about to say as bashing the M4/3.

My problem isn't that the M4 exists, it's that there wasn't a less serious, more fun car available. It's not just a size war, it's a performance war as well. In their effort to extract more and more performance from a road car, BMW have gotten further and further away from that sense of playfulness and engagement they used to be famous for. It's a case of not being able to have your cake and eat it too. If you want 500hp and assloads of torque, and want to be able to put down great lap times, the steering needs to be about accuracy, rather than feedback, the suspension must be tuned for stability rather than playfulness, the compromises go on.

While this is fine, as long as we have choices, we haven't had the choice or an opportunity to buy a car that puts road going fun first (except m-performance optioned 228i and M135i/235i). Maybe you're just a better driver than me (more than likely!) but I felt like attacking a road or track in an F80/2 was about managing the car and trying not to die when what I wanted to do was enjoy the driving experience.

For me, as a road car, the M4/3 are too compromised in the direction of performance. There isn't enough engagement, fun and playfulness left in the chassis, which is why the competition pack improves the M4 exhaust and updates MDM to try and fix these problems. There's a reason why BMW didn't just whack on an extra 60hp and call it a day. Fun and engagement.

To me, simplicity is not building a Lada, simplicity is the avoidance of unnecessary complexity. Why do I need adaptive suspension and M buttons? The amount of money I've spent, I expect the car to be set up right already. Would you go to a 3 Michelin star restaurant and order a build your own topping pizza, or would you be there to experience something that should come to your table refined and well executed? You might be eating a meal that has been improved by modern technology, but that technology is, and should be, secondary to the experience and involvement. I think that in the M3/4 technology and inaccessibility of the car's performance dominate the experience, which is fine, but it's why people complain about the GTR and why it's not the kind of car for me.

Again, this is how I feel, and I'm happy that there is a car you're happy with, and now, there's a car I can be happy with. This is the kind of car I want BMW to keep building and I'm putting my money where my mouth is. Everyone wins, I think. Even though it was 3 months ago, I still remember getting into an M2 and within the first 5m of lining up to get on the track, the car talked to me and what it said was, "hi, let's have some fun!" And that without having to pay Porsche money. In truth, I was sold on the car then.

With BMW moving to AWD M-cars (again in an effort to extract more performance, at the expense of engagement and playfulness) it seems to only a matter of time before cars like the M2 (yes, 1M owners, this includes the 1M, put down your pitchforks and torches) disappear altogether.

Very well put.

[luvmybmmr]

I'm not particularly tech or automotive savvy but I know two things:
1. I love BMWs
2. I have always dreamed of having an M

His review may not have been the best but I enjoyed just watching the car in motion and seeing it's lines.

I'm hoping my allocation comes in the next few months, and even if it takes longer I don't care, because I'm so excited to finally live my dream of driving an M.

But in the meantime I'll take mediocre reviews to watch

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by jtodd_fl

Uhhh.... you do feel a difference. Seriously. The M2 really does feel more agile. I personally do think it is the wheelbase (along with other things), but I am not an engineer. I can tell you what I feel though. I now have plenty of time in both on the road - not the track. Maybe leisurely driving you are at least closer to correct. But spirited driving on a road... definitely feel a difference.

It's ok. CosmosMpower is still in M4/M3 owner denial .... Yet shopping for an M2.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by masou

Not anymore.

And there in lies the problem. Who cares what others are doing BMW should go back to making the "Ultimate Driving Machine" not a compare my specs to your spec car. Like we have said it is the combination and end result not a feature comparison. Didn't work for the PC market not working for the performance car market.

The entire market moved that direction and the rest of the market EXCEPT BMW also brought in a *four door sedan model * below the cars they moved upmarket while BMW only brought a 2 door coupe.

See:

LEXUS IS ( below GS)
AUDI A3. ( below A4)
MERCEDES CLA. ( below C class )

Etc

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by ilovewagons

Your opinion is entirely valid, and please don't take what I'm about to say as bashing the M4/3.

My problem isn't that the M4 exists, it's that there wasn't a less serious, more fun car available. It's not just a size war, it's a performance war as well. In their effort to extract more and more performance from a road car, BMW have gotten further and further away from that sense of playfulness and engagement they used to be famous for. It's a case of not being able to have your cake and eat it too. If you want 500hp and assloads of torque, and want to be able to put down great lap times, the steering needs to be about accuracy, rather than feedback, the suspension must be tuned for stability rather than playfulness, the compromises go on.

While this is fine, as long as we have choices, we haven't had the choice or an opportunity to buy a car that puts road going fun first (except m-performance optioned 228i and M135i/235i). Maybe you're just a better driver than me (more than likely!) but I felt like attacking a road or track in an F80/2 was about managing the car and trying not to die when what I wanted to do was enjoy the driving experience.

For me, as a road car, the M4/3 are too compromised in the direction of performance. There isn't enough engagement, fun and playfulness left in the chassis, which is why the competition pack improves the M4 exhaust and updates MDM to try and fix these problems. There's a reason why BMW didn't just whack on an extra 60hp and call it a day. Fun and engagement.

To me, simplicity is not building a Lada, simplicity is the avoidance of unnecessary complexity. Why do I need adaptive suspension and M buttons? The amount of money I've spent, I expect the car to be set up right already. Would you go to a 3 Michelin star restaurant and order a build your own topping pizza, or would you be there to experience something that should come to your table refined and well executed? You might be eating a meal that has been improved by modern technology, but that technology is, and should be, secondary to the experience and involvement. I think that in the M3/4 technology and inaccessibility of the car's performance dominate the experience, which is fine, but it's why people complain about the GTR and why it's not the kind of car for me.

Again, this is how I feel, and I'm happy that there is a car you're happy with, and now, there's a car I can be happy with. This is the kind of car I want BMW to keep building and I'm putting my money where my mouth is. Everyone wins, I think. Even though it was 3 months ago, I still remember getting into an M2 and within the first 5m of lining up to get on the track, the car talked to me and what it said was, "hi, let's have some fun!" And that without having to pay Porsche money. In truth, I was sold on the car then.

With BMW moving to AWD M-cars (again in an effort to extract more performance, at the expense of engagement and playfulness) it seems to only a matter of time before cars like the M2 (yes, 1M owners, this includes the 1M, put down your pitchforks and torches) disappear altogether.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by ilovewagons

Your opinion is entirely valid, and please don't take what I'm about to say as bashing the M4/3.

My problem isn't that the M4 exists, it's that there wasn't a less serious, more fun car available. It's not just a size war, it's a performance war as well. In their effort to extract more and more performance from a road car, BMW have gotten further and further away from that sense of playfulness and engagement they used to be famous for. It's a case of not being able to have your cake and eat it too. If you want 500hp and assloads of torque, and want to be able to put down great lap times, the steering needs to be about accuracy, rather than feedback, the suspension must be tuned for stability rather than playfulness, the compromises go on.

While this is fine, as long as we have choices, we haven't had the choice or an opportunity to buy a car that puts road going fun first (except m-performance optioned 228i and M135i/235i). Maybe you're just a better driver than me (more than likely!) but I felt like attacking a road or track in an F80/2 was about managing the car and trying not to die when what I wanted to do was enjoy the driving experience.

For me, as a road car, the M4/3 are too compromised in the direction of performance. There isn't enough engagement, fun and playfulness left in the chassis, which is why the competition pack improves the M4 exhaust and updates MDM to try and fix these problems. There's a reason why BMW didn't just whack on an extra 60hp and call it a day. Fun and engagement.

To me, simplicity is not building a Lada, simplicity is the avoidance of unnecessary complexity. Why do I need adaptive suspension and M buttons? The amount of money I've spent, I expect the car to be set up right already. Would you go to a 3 Michelin star restaurant and order a build your own topping pizza, or would you be there to experience something that should come to your table refined and well executed? You might be eating a meal that has been improved by modern technology, but that technology is, and should be, secondary to the experience and involvement. I think that in the M3/4 technology and inaccessibility of the car's performance dominate the experience, which is fine, but it's why people complain about the GTR and why it's not the kind of car for me.

Again, this is how I feel, and I'm happy that there is a car you're happy with, and now, there's a car I can be happy with. This is the kind of car I want BMW to keep building and I'm putting my money where my mouth is. Everyone wins, I think. Even though it was 3 months ago, I still remember getting into an M2 and within the first 5m of lining up to get on the track, the car talked to me and what it said was, "hi, let's have some fun!" And that without having to pay Porsche money. In truth, I was sold on the car then.

With BMW moving to AWD M-cars (again in an effort to extract more performance, at the expense of engagement and playfulness) it seems to only a matter of time before cars like the M2 (yes, 1M owners, this includes the 1M, put down your pitchforks and torches) disappear altogether.

Amen.

There is a few things I need in my M2 now I've had my 2000kms/1200mi service yesterday:
-H&R springs 2cm down just for the look of it.
-R29 brakepads. The stockpads are alright but stoppingpower is only when pressing the pedal relatively TOO hard(and deeply)imho, I want more bite(I had them on my 1M)
-Last but not least a more sticky driver's seat, like a Recaro Pole Position.
Because in some bends I'm almost thrown out of my seat...
-Powerwise? Dunno. It's very linear compared to my ex 1M and the muscle like power in the M4. A bit more grunt like 30HP would be fine though lol.
But I'm not a chiptuning kind of guy. A DP?


But man does it deliver(tm Artemis) when driven hard on i.e. moist asphalt, whoaaa! I love it. The complete product is way more than the sum of its parts and other marketing crap but it's true, only when driven hard(er).

Driven normally it doesn't really feel like a real //M: that's a bit of a pity.

Cheers
Robin

[Yellowflash21]

Originally Posted by gthal

I agree with your comments but there is something going on when the M2 is lapping many tracks at the same speed or faster than the M4 notwithstanding it is way down on power. It may not be from the shorter wheelbase but there is something BMW has done in tying together the wheelbase, suspension, power and overall chassis that is causing the M2 to perform above its power level.

They praised 2-series chassis, as one of the best on the market. The only thing that it missed was right suspension and the power-band that M2 has.

I had a chance to try regular one series, m135 ,3, and 4 series chaises before jumping into M2.
Simply the secret is how well the basic chassis of 2 series was designed and how well it transfers the weight from one side to another. Not to mention how easy it is to feel the whole transition process, and be able to stay connect on the road with control.

M4 is brutal machine, but it has to go on diet, and to be bit stiffer and lower to be perfect track day car.

[Yellowflash21]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Amen.

There is a few things I need in my M2 now I've had my 2000kms/1200mi service yesterday:
-H&R springs 2cm down just for the look of it.
-R29 brakepads. The stockpads are alright but stoppingpower is only when pressing the pedal relatively TOO hard(and deeply)imho, I want more bite(I had them on my 1M)
-Last but not least a more sticky driver's seat, like a Recaro Pole Position.
Because in some bends I'm almost thrown out of my seat...
-Powerwise? Dunno. It's very linear compared to my ex 1M and the muscle like power in the M4. A bit more grunt like 30HP would be fine though lol.
But I'm not a chiptuning kind of guy. A DP?


But man does it deliver(tm Artemis) when driven hard on i.e. moist asphalt, whoaaa! I love it. The complete product is way more than the sum of its parts and other marketing crap but it's true, only when driven hard(er).

Driven normally it doesn't really feel like a real //M: that's a bit of a pity.

Cheers
Robin

Yeah, this thing below should add you extra 20+ hp without tune, and your turbo and engine will love it, not to mention your neighbors:

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Yellowflash21

Yeah, this thing below should add you extra 20+ hp without tune, and your turbo and engine will love it, not to mention your neighbors:

LOL I wanted to go CATless

Cheers
Robin

[jtodd_fl]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

LOL I wanted to go CATless

Cheers
Robin

Dude. Performance cats for the win! Hope it's not a high flow though. *shudder*