[Nine Lives]

Originally Posted by gthal

Don't confuse "capability" with "forgiveness"... although they often go hand in hand

Often a car with higher limits and capability is, by definition, more forgiving and easier to manage. The M2, as noted by the lap times, is more capable as we would expect. It's partly more capable because its limits are higher and it is better balanced.

For someone who wants the thrill of near death (exaggerating a bit for drama) and a more pure "raw" experience, the 1M is a great option. However, I would argue most professional drivers would prefer the car with higher limits, better control, etc unless they want to play hooligan. To say that the M2 isn't for the "mainstream enthusiast/beginner performance driver" is not true at all IMO. It is simply a more refined, more controlled version of the 1M. Some people will like the more raw, bite you in the behind feel and character of the 1M. However, even many very experienced track enthusiasts will want the faster car with better balance and higher limits and performance. It doesn't necessarily mean less fun... it means better control is accessible by EVERYONE... beginners and more advanced drivers.

Put another way, one of the biggest complaints of the M4 is the happy tail, the lack of grip due to torque, etc. None of this is "preferred" on the track unless you are messing around or want a thrill ride. The 1M is somewhat similar. The M2 corrects this notwithstanding some people like the feel of the alternative. If the M2 was unpredictable and untamed, I bet far MORE people would be complaining.

There's a tale in this somewhere.The M2 porridge is just right

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Yes it does. But on pilots .. On a hot day... If the Miata is on race tires .. Just barely . That's why I pulled over for a point by towards the end of the run. Neal Bellamy was following me, and actually after declining the pass, he went off !

Come on down to COTA ..

Probably from heating up his tires riding you. Looked like he went bye bye after you let him by and then the white one was on your butt coming out of wagon wheel. I'd hope 1M/M2 would be faster than a Miata at COTA!

[paradoxical3]

Originally Posted by ken o

I would get an e46 M3. They can run 1:20.9 on street tires.

With a $5k JRZ suspension most cars can do that! Not exactly fair comparing it to a stock car. Also the RE71 is worth at least 2 full seconds over PSS.

Still the mighty 1M should be able to hold off a few 110 hp first gen Miata's, no?

No shame in getting passed by a Miata on slicks, don't think there is a single track driver on the forums who hasn't had that happen to them.

[ken o]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

With a $5k JRZ suspension most cars can do that! Not exactly fair comparing it to a stock car. Also the RE71 is worth at least 2 full seconds over PSS.



No shame in getting passed by a Miata on slicks, don't think there is a single track driver on the forums who hasn't had that happen to them.

Shocks and RE71 are worth 8 - 10 seconds per lap?

What about torque 254 v 343?

[paradoxical3]

Originally Posted by ken o

Shocks and RE71 are worth 8 - 10 seconds per lap?

No, of course not. But 5-6 is well within the realm of possibility, though unlikely on such a short track (most tracks I drive are around the 1:50-2min length so that is my point of reference). I've never driven this particular track so I have no idea what a "quick" time is. I'm just saying though, you can't compare a car with JRZ and what are basically rcomp tires to a stock one. I picked up about 10 seconds on my old car from stock to JRZ/NT01/FBO power adders, but that was on a longer course and starting from a worse platform than a e46 M3 is.

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

No, of course not. But 5-6 is well within the realm of possibility, though unlikely on such a short track (most tracks I drive are around the 1:50-2min length so that is my point of reference). I've never driven this particular track so I have no idea what a "quick" time is. I'm just saying though, you can't compare a car with JRZ and what are basically rcomp tires to a stock one. I picked up about 10 seconds on my old car from stock to JRZ/NT01/FBO power adders, but that was on a longer course and starting from a worse platform than a e46 M3 is.

Awesome, in that case my GT3 can run a 1:15 just a few seconds off a 997 CUP! I just need some JRZ's and some RE71's.

[paradoxical3]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

Awesome, in that case my GT3 can run a 1:15 just a few seconds off a 997 CUP! I just need some JRZ's and some RE71's.

We have three possibilities here:

1. You are dumb enough to buy a GT3 and somehow shoehorn a e46 M3 suspension and pilot super sports onto it, drastically downgrading from the stock equipment.

2. You genuinely don't understand that there is much more room to improve the suspension and tires of a mass produced luxury sports sedan than there is on a track-focused "supercar" that comes with sport cup 2s from the factory.

3. You understand all of this perfectly, and are just trolling.

Either way, doesn't look good for you!

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

We have three possibilities here:

1. You are dumb enough to buy a GT3 and somehow shoehorn a e46 M3 suspension and pilot super sports onto it, drastically downgrading from the stock equipment.

2. You genuinely don't understand that there is much more room to improve the suspension and tires of a mass produced luxury sports sedan than there is on a track-focused "supercar" that comes with sport cup 2s from the factory.

3. You understand all of this perfectly, and are just trolling.

Either way, doesn't look good for you!

I was being sarcastic but they make JRZ's for Porsches too you know. My car came with PSC 1's which suck compared to RE71R's. A M2 is not a 'luxury sport sedan' and a GT3 is not a 'supercar'.

It doesn't look good for you if you think suspension and better street tires alone will make up 6+ seconds on a 1 min 20 second a lap track on any car.

[paradoxical3]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

They make JRZ's for Porsches too you know. My car came with PSC 1's which suck compared to RE71R's. A M2 is not a 'luxury sport sedan' and a GT3 is not a 'supercar'.

It doesn't look good for you if you think suspension and better street tires will make up 6 seconds on a 1 min 20 second a lap track on any car.

Thanks for confirming #2. PS: I was referring to the E46 M3, as illustrated in the video and mentioned in that post and multiple times.

Moving from a 10 year old stock E46 M3 suspension on street tires to a JRZ competition setup with camber plates, a track focused alignment, and RE71 can absolutely approach 5-6 seconds on a 1:30 course.

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

Thanks for confirming #2. PS: I was referring to the E46 M3, as illustrated in the video and mentioned in that post and multiple times.

Moving from a 10 year old stock E46 M3 suspension on street tires to a JRZ competition setup with camber plates, a track focused alignment, and RE71 can absolutely approach 5-6 seconds on a 1:30 course.

You're funny, you have no idea what that E46 M3 has and if you think it's just shocks, alignment and good tires you're in for a surprise.

[paradoxical3]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

You're funny, you have no idea what that E46 M3 has and if you think it's just shocks, alignment and good tires you're in for a surprise.

That car held the NASA track record at mosport 1.7 in the TTA class when it was 2 seconds slower, so I have a pretty damn good idea of what it has done. And what it has done or doesn't have done has zero relevance to whether or not moving from a stock e46 m3 to jrz, alignment, and re71 can give 5-6 seconds. Which it can.

But go ahead, keep trying with the red herrings if you want.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by ken o

I would get an e46 M3. They can run 1:20.9 on street tires.

Me too!

Just got the word from Matt Dashiell. Apparently an E36M3 with suspension and street tires is faster than an M2 also.. " I ran 1:27.00 on Bridgestone RE71Rs... previous all time best is 1:26.93 on Toyo RA-1s " so the Bridgestones are pretty much R comps... unfortunately they last about as long too "


bottom line.. bringing Michelin Pilot SS tires to the track is definitely like bringing street tires to an Ofest autocross ..

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Me too!

Just got the word from Matt Dashiell. Apparently an E36M3 with suspension and street tires is faster than an M2 also.. " I ran 1:27.00 on Bridgestone RE71Rs... previous all time best is 1:26.93 on Toyo RA-1s " so the Bridgestones are pretty much R comps... unfortunately they last about as long too "


bottom line.. bringing Michelin Pilot SS tires to the track is definitely like bringing street tires to an Ofest autocross..

I ran 2:03 at ECR in Scott's bone stock off the showroom 'grand touring' boat 2015 M3 on MPSS and stock brakes. I ran under 2 mins there on MPSS on my stock GT-R also and 1:06 on the 1.3.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Nine Lives

There's a tale in this somewhere.The M2 porridge is just right

YES correct. This was never intended to be a TRACK BATTLE ... but rather a comparison of the two cars.. the M2 is awesome!

[ken o]

Fine, I will drive both and see which one is faster.

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

That car held the NASA track record at mosport 1.7 in the TTA class when it was 2 seconds slower, so I have a pretty damn good idea of what it has done. And what it has done or doesn't have done has zero relevance to whether or not moving from a stock e46 m3 to jrz, alignment, and re71 can give 5-6 seconds. Which it can.

But go ahead, keep trying with the red herrings if you want.

That was 4+ years ago and I know the owner of the car. You're obviously a JRZ fanboy since you were dumb enough to buy a set for a X1 LOL. Does your Chinese CF ebay spoiler also net you 3 seconds a lap on your M2?

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by gthal

Don't confuse "capability" with "forgiveness"... although they often go hand in hand

Often a car with higher limits and capability is, by definition, more forgiving and easier to manage. The M2, as noted by the lap times, is more capable as we would expect. It's partly more capable because its limits are higher and it is better balanced.

For someone who wants the thrill of near death (exaggerating a bit for drama) and a more pure "raw" experience, the 1M is a great option. However, I would argue most professional drivers would prefer the car with higher limits, better control, etc unless they want to play hooligan. To say that the M2 isn't for the "mainstream enthusiast/beginner performance driver" is not true at all IMO. It is simply a more refined, more controlled version of the 1M. Some people will like the more raw, bite you in the behind feel and character of the 1M. However, even many very experienced track enthusiasts will want the faster car with better balance and higher limits and performance. It doesn't necessarily mean less fun... it means better control is accessible by EVERYONE... beginners and more advanced drivers.

Put another way, one of the biggest complaints of the M4 is the happy tail, the lack of grip due to torque, etc. None of this is "preferred" on the track unless you are messing around or want a thrill ride. The 1M is somewhat similar. The M2 corrects this notwithstanding some people like the feel of the alternative. If the M2 was unpredictable and untamed, I bet far MORE people would be complaining.

Originally Posted by CanadianDriver

Great writeup M3 Adjuster

My take away is that 1M is for the enthusiast near-race car pro/driver while M2 is for mainstream enthusiast/beginner performance driver... i.e. the car has plenty of "forgiveness" as they say in golf

Indeed the M2 is perfect for all level of drivers but *particularly* for the new driver... with it's low effort controls combined with auto rev matching and plenty of forgiveness in the chassis.... it's almost child's play to drive the DCT I am sure. Although the rear does wander a little bit with DSC fully off and 6MT....... I believe there is a reason that we haven't seen a lot of press reviews with manual cars on the track in full DSC off mode!

you are absolutely correct that the 1M is for a enthusiast driver that accepts the challenge : you need to pay full attention in this car...

[Robin_NL]

You made it to the frontpage Yippiayay M3 Adjuster !

Cheers
Robin

[ilikebmxbikes]

best m2 review yet.

[Dackelone]

Thanks for the GREAT writeup. I look forward to meeting you again, when you pick up your M2 CSL on ED(whenever BMW builds them!).

[rjd598]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Thanks for the GREAT writeup. I look forward to meeting you again, when you pick up your M2 CSL on ED(whenever BMW builds them!).

smooth

[Powaup]

What a great write up

If there is one thing you could/would change on the M2 (besides EPS) what would it be?

And yea EPS and hydraulic steering make a night and day difference. I remember getting into my E39 after driving my M4 for sometime and enjoying that steering sensation a lot more even though it was a basic 528