[Dirtboy]

Originally Posted by bri1042

I played around a lot with the tune I built from scratch, and I got the sound to a pretty good point. Yesterday, Bimmertech emailed me their actual F87 HK tune (my unit DID come pre-loaded with the wrong tune), and I've loaded that into the car. They took a very different approach than I did on the tune I built. I'll see how it sounds on the run to work today.

I know how that goes. I had no tune at all starting out. I grabbed one off the Audiotec Fischer site. They only had generic tunes and none for coupes so I used one for a sedan (Limousine). It sounded like garbage. So I started from scratch and tuned it my self. It sounds decent to me, but I'm sure it wouldn't win any autosound competitions, yet...

[bri1042]

Tune aside, there's a bit of an issue involving either signal strength on the input side or power to the amp itself. There just isn't as much output as there should be. Input sensitivity was all the way up out of the box (I've never run an amp with the sensitivity turned all the way up...just shouldn't need to be), and it still basically acts like input sensitivity is too low.

I have two theories at this point:

1. I have ASD coded off but having the module in the loop at all could be dropping input signal strength. I have a bypass cable on the way (should be here Thursday) so I'll give that a whirl.

2. The power coming from the stock power line isn't sufficient (this is one of those items I was aware might be an issue going in). I haven't tested the voltage coming off of it, but it's near-certain that it doesn't feed as much power as a direct-to-battery line would. I think I have some cables on hand that I can use, so at some point I'll run a real power feed to it.

The tune from Bimmertech was interesting, but not my cup of tea. It did a good job taming the highs but created an awful mid-bass hole. The sound stage is also odd, likely due to my center channel being on a shelf instead of in the car. They sent two tunes, and I haven't tried the second one yet. I may just apply some of what they did to my own tune and see how that goes.

Anyway, more fun to be had!

[bri1042]

ASD bypass cable installed today. I had been hearing a subtle white noise hiss in the system and that's entirely gone. For that alone the cable was worth the price. I was hearing it on the stock amp, too, so I think its inherent to the ASD amp. It may be on purpose to drown out some road noise. I wouldn't put that past a car company.

Output levels neither increased or decreased, so, somewhat unfortunately, that leaves me pretty darn sure that the amp isn't getting enough voltage off of the stock power line.

I went back to my tune and played with it a bit. It's closer but those god-awful tweeters may not be an obstacle that can be overcome. I'm not sure how much more effort I'm willing to put into the tune before I give up and start swapping speakers.

[MR.]

Same here... M2C has the hizz of the power supply to the ASD unit like the M2. I heard it a few times with radio off. ASD harness installed and it is gone. Happy to hear you heard it as well.

MR

[bri1042]

I made another run at the tune at the end of the day yesterday. Adjusted timing on the front-right speakers, pulled some of the treble frequencies down a bit, and bumped the mid-bass and bass frequencies a smidge. The tune may be close to as good as it can get. I'll see how it sounds while actually driving this morning.

A big part of this project was to see if I could recommend just doing this one upgrade. I'm thinking that I won't be able to make that recommendation. It was enough of an improvement on the F30 Hifi setup that I had on my '13 328 for it to be plenty for a lot of folk, but despite not being that different (speaker-wise) from F30 Hifi, the F22 HK is different enough to close the gap quite a bit.

I really don't think that the "subs" and the mids on the HK setup are that bad of speakers, which is likely partly why folk haven't gotten a huge sound quality boost from changing them to other mid-tier speakers like the Gladen and BSW sets. Speaker set changes are going to be most effective if they include better tweeters. Moving to a high-end speaker set, like the Dynaudio's, Morel's, or Hybrid Audio's involves more cash than most are willing to spend, especially once you consider the power requirements of higher impedance speaker that I think this amp can't fill without at least swapping to battery-direct power.

I haven't put a volt meter against the stock power lead (mine is broken), but I would bet a pretty penny that it's not pushing the 14.4 volts that can be gotten from a direct battery connection, and that makes me hesitant to put 4 Ohm speakers in. I'm going to have run power from the battery before I do anything else.

Oh - one other thing I realized. Helix sells drop-in under-seat replacements meant to go with this amp. I took a look at them and they are dual voice coil speakers that end up feeding off of 2 amp channels each. That's how they intended on getting enough power out of this little fella. You can't bridge channels on this thing to get more power to single voice coil subs, and their under-seat's are the only DVC models I could find. With that in mind, I absolutely feel that I made a mistake buying this model instead of the Up 7BMW, which is likely bridging internally for SVC subs. I think Bimmertech needs to seriously consider switching models to that one.

Live and learn.

[bri1042]

Post-morning-drive update:

I may have been wrong about needing to run another power line. When I tested it last night, it was with the engine off after the car had been sitting for a while. With the engine running, I'm getting output levels significantly greater than I've ever gotten in this car, and the output is sufficient for the first time. I was able to listen to good FLAC files as loud as I'd want to without going over about 65% volume.

I'm also very pleased with the results of the last tune tweaking.

[MR.]

Originally Posted by bri1042

I made another run at the tune at the end of the day yesterday. Adjusted timing on the front-right speakers, pulled some of the treble frequencies down a bit, and bumped the mid-bass and bass frequencies a smidge. The tune may be close to as good as it can get. I'll see how it sounds while actually driving this morning.

A big part of this project was to see if I could recommend just doing this one upgrade. I'm thinking that I won't be able to make that recommendation. It was enough of an improvement on the F30 Hifi setup that I had on my '13 328 for it to be plenty for a lot of folk, but despite not being that different (speaker-wise) from F30 Hifi, the F22 HK is different enough to close the gap quite a bit.

I really don't think that the "subs" and the mids on the HK setup are that bad of speakers, which is likely partly why folk haven't gotten a huge sound quality boost from changing them to other mid-tier speakers like the Gladen and BSW sets. Speaker set changes are going to be most effective if they include better tweeters. Moving to a high-end speaker set, like the Dynaudio's, Morel's, or Hybrid Audio's involves more cash than most are willing to spend, especially once you consider the power requirements of higher impedance speaker that I think this amp can't fill without at least swapping to battery-direct power.

I haven't put a volt meter against the stock power lead (mine is broken), but I would bet a pretty penny that it's not pushing the 14.4 volts that can be gotten from a direct battery connection, and that makes me hesitant to put 4 Ohm speakers in. I'm going to have run power from the battery before I do anything else.

Oh - one other thing I realized. Helix sells drop-in under-seat replacements meant to go with this amp. I took a look at them and they are dual voice coil speakers that end up feeding off of 2 amp channels each. That's how they intended on getting enough power out of this little fella. You can't bridge channels on this thing to get more power to single voice coil subs, and their under-seat's are the only DVC models I could find. With that in mind, I absolutely feel that I made a mistake buying this model instead of the Up 7BMW, which is likely bridging internally for SVC subs. I think Bimmertech needs to seriously consider switching models to that one.

Live and learn.

Fully agree with this statement:

"I really don't think that the "subs" and the mids on the HK setup are that bad of speakers, which is likely partly why folk haven't gotten a huge sound quality boost from changing them to other mid-tier speakers like the Gladen and BSW sets."

The key is finding a sweet spot upgrade that offers a price level without going completely mental on the upgrades. It would be good to come up with such a series of product upgrades across different price levels after all your testing and findings are finished.

I believe that DSP/AMP and tweeter upgrades could well be the thing to do within a reasonable price level and that the right kind of tuning of the software will get you the sound we are looking for without going completely idiot with all kinds of new wiring, etc.

MR

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by MR.

Fully agree with this statement:

"I really don't think that the "subs" and the mids on the HK setup are that bad of speakers, which is likely partly why folk haven't gotten a huge sound quality boost from changing them to other mid-tier speakers like the Gladen and BSW sets."

The key is finding a sweet spot upgrade that offers a price level without going completely mental on the upgrades. It would be good to come up with such a series of product upgrades across different price levels after all your testing and findings are finished.

I believe that DSP/AMP and tweeter upgrades could well be the thing to do within a reasonable price level and that the right kind of tuning of the software will get you the sound we are looking for without going completely idiot with all kinds of new wiring, etc.

MR

Indeed. I wanted to see where I could get it and still be in the realm of most folk's "tear apart the car" and "sub-$1k" desires. And I wanted to see where I could go and keep my setup simple.

The BSW tweeters on their own might be an interesting partial step. I have some, though I'm not sure that I want to pull apart the doors and NOT put in my Hybrid Audio's and Morel's. 4 Ohm door speakers with the 2 Ohm under seats would change the overall balance quite a bit, quite likely for the better so that the under seat subs can stand out a bit more.

I really didn't think I made much of a difference with yesterday's changes last night, but driving in this morning I was deeply surprised and pleased. One of my reference tracks is Tori Amos's "Winter". Her voice and piano, plus the orchestral sections are a very good clarity test. It played through very well on the way to work. It's certainly not at "reference" levels, but that was never going to happen with a single-item upgrade.

I'm probably going to let the setup stand as is for a few days before deciding what to do next.

[Dirtboy]

Originally Posted by bri1042

Oh - one other thing I realized. Helix sells drop-in under-seat replacements meant to go with this amp. I took a look at them and they are dual voice coil speakers that end up feeding off of 2 amp channels each. That's how they intended on getting enough power out of this little fella. You can't bridge channels on this thing to get more power to single voice coil subs, and their under-seat's are the only DVC models I could find. With that in mind, I absolutely feel that I made a mistake buying this model instead of the Up 7BMW, which is likely bridging internally for SVC subs. I think Bimmertech needs to seriously consider switching models to that one.

Live and learn.

Audiotec Fischer just came out with a new Match 8" sub that has a 2ohm single voice coil. UP W8BMW-S

I was worried about the impedance match for the underseat woofers; that's why I didn't go for the 6ohm Jehnert's. Instead I went with the 2ohm Earthquake SWS 8Xi. But they don't do so well with mid-bass. I might give the UP W8BMW-S a chance.

[bri1042]

I had a set of 2 ohm Earthquakes long ago. The mid-bass hole was mighty, but the setup was lacking a DSP at the time to help out.

[nothingman]

Originally Posted by Dirtboy

I just went through this whole process; still tuning the system though.

Dirtboy is being modest. Anyone interested in this thread should really also check his out. It’s also a great read on upgrading the audio in the M2:

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1529438

[bri1042]

Quick update:

I've got the tune about as good as I can get it. It's really not bad at this point. The sound stage and clarity across the audio range is significantly better than the stock HK amp. The highs are controlled and close to OK, and the mid-bass is about as good as the speakers are capable of producing. Bass is almost OK, but my reference on this is hard to match with these speakers. I'd seen a ton of tunes that folk posted with the subwoofers in phase with the door speakers and I tried to make that work but it just came out flat and odd unless I separated the cutoffs for the subs and the mids enough to eliminate any frequencies both speaker sets were playing. And that leaves a mid-bass hole the size of California. Reversing the phase on the under seat subs was necessary and now it's, well, OK. I also summed the front and rear inputs to the subs. The stock tune was pulling from just the front. That shouldn't have made much difference, but it ended up being an audible change for the better.

I was ready yesterday to move on to the next step and drop in my door speakers but I discovered a disappointing issue when I was taking everything out of the box the audio bits went into when I had everything removed from my F30.

Everything from the front doors other than the speakers and crossovers is missing from the box. The wiring and the adapter mounts are gone. I've had the adapters for years, so it was not a nice Christmas Eve present finding out that the guys lost them when they took my stereo out of my 340. I have all the other wiring from the setup (and it's a LOT of wires), but nothing from the door speakers. I can remake the molex-connector wire runs that should have been there, and I ordered new adapters from Technic this morning.

I'll do the speaker install at some point after I get the new adapters.

[bri1042]

Oh, one other thing:

I originally said that I thought the speaker timing was good out of the box. It turns out that it was only good compared to not having them timed at all. Once the tune started to come together I realized that the distances were off. For the fronts and the subs, the distances were just set too short and the ratio was only a bit off. For the rears, they were actually backwards (and also too short). I think the rears were set as if my car was right-hand drive instead of left.

I re-measured the distances as best I could and it made a huge difference.

[Dirtboy]

Originally Posted by bri1042

Reversing the phase on the under seat subs was necessary and now it's, well, OK. I also summed the front and rear inputs to the subs.

That's the same thing I did. With the underseat woofers in-phase with everything else, the mid-bass sounded off. Reversed the phase and it made it sound much better. I also summed all channels to the underseat woofers and the sub in the trunk.

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by Dirtboy

That's the same thing I did. With the underseat woofers in-phase with everything else, the mid-bass sounded off. Reversed the phase and it made it sound much better. I also summed all channels to the underseat woofers and the sub in the trunk.

Now that I think about it, the under-seats are L/R summed at the moment, too. I've been playing back and forth with having them run "mono" and having them run in stereo. I doesn't seem to make a ton of difference vs. getting the rear signals mixed in (which was a distinct change).

Assuming I can ever get my Hybrid and Morel's into the doors, the tune will have to change quite a bit to cut down on the signal overlap between the subs and the mids. I think there's a good chance I'll be about done with this when winter ends. :-) Gives me something to do, at least!

[3t3p]

I am an audiofool also, the HK Is passable and that is all.
It's overly polite geared for radio 4 type content with one note bass bloat and nothing above that until mid range comes in.

The VW dynaudio systems are amazing. No holes anywhere into he response, it is dynamic driven and powerful.

Excellent controlled bass. Three section equaliser also. I don't understand why BMW is struggling so much with in car hifi.

[MR.]

Originally Posted by 3t3p

I am an audiofool also, the HK Is passable and that is all.
It's overly polite geared for radio 4 type content with one note bass bloat and nothing above that until mid range comes in.

The VW dynaudio systems are amazing. No holes anywhere into he response, it is dynamic driven and powerful.

Excellent controlled bass. Three section equaliser also. I don't understand why BMW is struggling so much with in car hifi.

Low cost! They really have to lower cost everywhere...

MR

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by 3t3p

I am an audiofool also, the HK Is passable and that is all.
It's overly polite geared for radio 4 type content with one note bass bloat and nothing above that until mid range comes in.

The VW dynaudio systems are amazing. No holes anywhere into he response, it is dynamic driven and powerful.

Excellent controlled bass. Three section equaliser also. I don't understand why BMW is struggling so much with in car hifi.

I agree with MR, it's a cost issue, and probably an economy-of-scale issue. Dynaudio equipment is deeply expensive (and magnificent). I would guess that the VW Dynaudio stuff isn't their top-shelf equipment, but I really doubt they'd put their name on it unless it somewhat met their standards. It may be that VW has an advantage because they sell so many more cars than BMW does, and possibly can get the systems cheaper per unit. Or not. VW goes the cheap route in other areas than BMW (every company picks and chooses where to save money).

Audio quality has also likely been hurt by using the sound systems as a marketing ploy ("Our car has 12 speakers! That other car only has 9! Buy our car instead since we give you MORE SPEAKERS!"). Sigh. More speakers is not the path to a good audio system. Marketing won over quality.

The other piece of it is the 4" speakers. I wish they would give up, let the audio folk have a bit more space, and move to larger mids. Just looking at my good pair of mids (Hybrid Audio L4SE Carbon's) vs. the 6" version of the same speaker makes me a bit sad. The larger drivers have a much, much more broad usable frequency response.

[bri1042]

Quick update:

I got the speaker adapters from Technic yesterday and Molex connectors for the wiring earlier this week. I'll sit down and build out the wiring today or tomorrow, and I may put the door speakers in this weekend. One annoyance: With the death of Radio Shack, there is NO WHERE local except Fry's to buy Molex connectors. They are oddly expensive on Amazon, and Fry's is about 30 miles away. Grrr.

I've let the tune stand for a while. I've been pretty happy with it, though there's a bit too much energy coming from the rear speakers. The timing has worked out very well, though. If I was going to stay with these speakers, I'd spend more time on this tune to try and bring the mid-bass out a bit more (which may not be possible...this might be about as good as it gets), and tweak a few other spots in the frequency range that aren't quite right. Overall, if I bought a car that sounded like this stock, I wouldn't criticize it too much, which is an accomplishment over what we do get as stock in these cars.

[3t3p]

Well I really want an M2 but I will have to do something about the sound. Possibly that might cost me £2000+ to achieve because BMW couldn't be bothered to.

That centre Channel sounded just odd to me I'd want it gone. The salesman turnes up the HK for me to hear, I nodded politely then we turned it down again a few moments later...

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by 3t3p

Well I really want an M2 but I will have to do something about the sound. Possibly that might cost me £2000+ to achieve because BMW couldn't be bothered to.

That centre Channel sounded just odd to me I'd want it gone. The salesman turnes up the HK for me to hear, I nodded politely then we turned it down again a few moments later...

Disconnecting the center channel helps even if you don't change out any equipment.

[MR.]

Originally Posted by bri1042

Disconnecting the center channel helps even if you don't change out any equipment.

What is the easiest to do this?

MR