[Poochie]

Originally Posted by babaikram

I am currently considering moving from 2018 M240i to M2C. The more I seat in M2C the more it feels so familiar and loses the aura.

Please don't get me wrong, if no financial penalty is involved, I would immediately change to M2C. So I might have to wait a bit longer

Get the M Performance LSD and a simple Dinan boost controlled, which would stack on the M240i stock MPPK tune and you pretty much have 90% of the performance the M2 Competition offers stock, without the financial hit of trading up..

Over here, folks look down on the M-lites because they're not labeled as full blown M cars but they have seriously potential and are the sleeper cars of the standard BMW line up, minus the fanfare..

The 240i only Achille's Heel is the lack of the M torque-vectoring LSD but the optional MP LSD is good enough of street duty..

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Get the M Performance LSD and a simple Dinan boost controlled, which would stack on the M240i stock MPPK tune and you pretty much have 90% of the performance the M2 Competition offers stock, without the financial hit of trading up..

Over here, folks look down on the M-lites because they're not labeled as full blown M cars but they have seriously potential and are the sleeper cars of the standard BMW line up, minus the fanfare..

The 240i only Achille's Heel is the lack of the M torque-vectoring LSD but the optional MP LSD is good enough of street duty..

+1
It's all about street cred here, even though 99% of M owners leave their car bone stock and don't know anything about their cars and just buy it for the badge.

M performance cars are more than good enough if you only occasionally track your car, or do it every weekend. If you're really serious to the point where your car isn't going to be a daily and will be modified beyond belief that's when an M would be worth it.

I started with the m235i, but at a certain point when I started doing the m3/m4 suspension retrofits as I found the suspension was limiting, that's when I realized it would be best to just get an m2.

[Humdizzle]

you can definitely have fun without going to a track... just depends on your skill set and how brave you are. also the traffic situation in your area. M cars are the bare minimum for what i need on the road. I had a f30 335 and found it very underwhelming, the zf8 speed is slow to downshift, hard to hold a slide without the locking diff, etc.

bmw m cars are perfect compromise.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

you can definitely have fun without going to a track... just depends on your skill set and how brave you are. also the traffic situation in your area. M cars are the bare minimum for what i need on the road. I had a f30 335 and found it very underwhelming, the zf8 speed is slow to downshift, hard to hold a slide without the locking diff, etc.

bmw m cars are perfect compromise.

I drove a 435i with the zf8 on the track once and it's not that hard to hold a slide, you just have to be sharp on your throttle application and be able to use it to change the angle of the nose. The zf 8 speed imo is pretty good, but if you find it troublesome get a manual transmission and all the issues are solved, plus you can clutch kick to initiate a slide. like you said it's all based on driver skill at the end of the day, for me to costed too much to keep retrofitting m parts on my m235i as I kept hitting the limits on the chassis too often, so I made the swap to a full M. Street only users shouldn't really need an M model, as the m performance cars are any pretty good. The new b58 with a tune can keep up with and even beat a stock m4, so it shouldn't be underwhelming. Stock for stock an mppk b58 can beat an m2 in a drag too due to the better power band.

[amancuso]

Just a curious question. How much would it take to make an M235/M240i perform and handle like a stock 16-18 M2?

[doug_999]

I think that IF you are planning on tracking a car, the type/choice of M car should come into play.
For instance, the M2C is a better car than the M2 if you plan on tracking it - but I would wager the M2 is a better street car with its N55 engine having less lag (although rumor has it the M2C rides better).

Same with the M3 - if you are serious about tracking it, get the M3CS.

But at the end of the day, I don't think buying a $60K +car for track purposes is a great move - having been out there and been crushed by 2-series cars that were/are tweaked for the track is humbling. So I would personally just get a track car if that's what I did every weekend.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by amancuso

Just a curious question. How much would it take to make an M235/M240i perform and handle like a stock 16-18 M2?

Too much man, way too much.

The lsd diff by itself is like $3-$5k and if you want the real M diff another few grand on top plus the wiring and ecus required to make it work, and even then it may not function properly.

After that the control arms, to links etc are all M specific.

Then the shocks and struts are M specific, and then chassis bracing.

You'll probably be $20-$30k in if you buy all the parts brand new, I was probably around $10K in just M bracing and a few suspension components (camber plates bushings, etc). Then $5K for keeping v3 club sports, so $15K and still didn't have a diff or anything else.

[amancuso]

Originally Posted by F87source

Too much man, way too much.

The lsd diff by itself is like $3-$5k and if you want the real M diff another few grand on top plus the wiring and ecus required to make it work, and even then it may not function properly.

After that the control arms, to links etc are all M specific.

Then the shocks and struts are M specific, and then chassis bracing.

You'll probably be $20-$30k in if you buy all the parts brand new, I was probably around $10K in just M bracing and a few suspension components (camber plates bushings, etc). Then $5K for keeping v3 club sports, so $15K and still didn't have a diff or anything else.

Thats what I thought. For those that don't want to spend coin on modifying a lower trim 2er the M2 is perfect.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by amancuso

Thats what I thought. For those that don't want to spend coin on modifying a lower trim 2er the M2 is perfect.

+1
I never needed it for casual once in a while track days where I was open lapping with a bunch of slower drivers. But once I started time attack and auto x again (like previous cars I owned), the open diff was super limiting and every new suspension upgrade revealed another weakness.

[TMR013]

Originally Posted by 10"

It's silly how the sheep around the car culture stratosphere have been brainwashed to think that tracking their car is somehow required.

A) you have a life to live. Unless you are a race car driver as a profession; tracking cars is NOT a priority. Driving it everyday is.

B) wanna go to a track? Sure sign up for a track day. Your lap times won't matter. What will matter is you'll have fun.

C) don't wanna track your car? Don't worry not everyone is going to take their daily driver to the track and wear every part out just so they have to repair it more.

D) live for everyday; not just the rare "track day"

YES M cars are made for everyday use. Whether you go to the track or you don't go to the track; enjoying driving is what is important. They are made for the snow, for the rain, for carrying kids around, for taking an apex at the track, for buying toilet paper at the supermarket, etc etc.

Don't let others define what you do with your car.

This!

[F87source]

Originally Posted by TMR013

This!

+1
Lol to the guys that think regular cars aren't capable enough on the street probably can't even come close to the limit of a non m on the track, just because the throttle response isn't as sharp doesn't mean it's not as good. Also you can't compare the feel of a 335i and m3 for instance as it's more than a 100whp gap, compare a tuned version, then the only factor is the handling.

No disrespect to anyone, but like op said BMW has done a great job creating this stigma that an M is required for everyone, as they want the M badge to drive up sales. The benefit for them is that they make more money, the con is now M's get softer, and have to encorporate more tech and comfort features that regular series get diverging them further from what a pure M track car use to be. Now they're fat, way to large, and super heavy.

At the end of the day if you must have an M as it's your dream car, or you head to the track frequently enough for it to matter, or Hoon enough on "private" road then by all means get one don't let a guy on the internet stop you it's your money your call.

[bobert]

Even when driving on the street, you can - to a noticeable & worthwhile extent - enjoy the enhanced power, braking, sound, & handling (and, yes, the look) of a car like the M2. Even if not to its upper limits, it's worth having and enjoying on the street. The track is of course a great way to enjoy it further, but the M2's advantages over something like an M240i can most certainly be felt and enjoyed on the road.

A significant part of this is that you can feel the differential doing its job on the street when accelerating hard and/or taking a tight curve in a road or especially on a ramp. My former 335i M Sport was much less capable when tackling some of my favorite curves and on/off ramps when compared to my departed G35 sedan, my M2, or even my Miata, all of which had LSD. LSD (the differential, not the acid ) really does enhance spirited driving on the street.

I don't consider an M2 to be overkill on the street at all, but it's nice that it's capable for track days, whether you do them regularly or sparingly, or even not at all. For me, overkill would be even more powerful cars - it's incredible how many 600 and 700 (or more) hp cars are street legal these days.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by bobert

Even when driving on the street, you can - to a noticeable & worthwhile extent - enjoy the enhanced power, braking, sound, & handling (and, yes, the look) of a car like the M2. Even if not to its upper limits, it's worth having and enjoying on the street. The track is of course a great way to enjoy it further, but its advantages over something like an M240i can most certainly be felt and enjoyed on the road.

A significant part of this is that you can feel the differential doing its job on the street when accelerating hard and/or taking a tight curve in a road or especially on a ramp. My former 335i M Sport was much less capable when tackling some of my favorite curves and on/off ramps when compared to my departed G35 sedan, my M2, or even my Miata, all of which had LSD. LSD (the differential, not the acid ) really does enhance spirited driving on the street.

I don't consider an M2 to be overkill on the street at all, but it's nice that it's capable for track days, whether you do them regularly or sparingly, or even not at all. For me, overkill would be even more powerful cars - it's incredible how many 600 and 700 (or more) hp cars are street legal these days.

Yeah I feel the difference too when I push it hard on the street, but for me I would prefer an xdrive m240i for daily use as I live in a snowy climate, and the m2 suspension + pot holes = broken back day after day.

[bobert]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yeah I feel the difference too when I push it hard on the street, but for me I would prefer an xdrive m240i for daily use as I live in a snowy climate, and the m2 suspension + pot holes = broken back day after day.

I can't disagree with either of those points, which is why I keep a GTI for winter time - no snowy/salty roads or potholes for my M2. But that's a different topic, not really related to tracking.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by bobert

I can't disagree with either of those points, which is why I keep a GTI for winter time - no snowy/salty roads or potholes for my M2. But that's a different topic, not really related to tracking.

Yeah I have a few other cars for the winter here.

Yup it relates to the street use where an M may not always be the solution for year round use. Some people only buy it for prestige too, or people buy it and can't hit the limit or notice any difference. In those cases an M performance model should suffice. Also I've driven a 435i performance edition (dealer car) with the lsd and that pretty much closed the gap on the street where you'd have to push it even harder (probably to reckless driving levels) to notice the edge an M would have.

[bobert]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yeah I have a few other cars for the winter here.

Yup it relates to the street use where an M may not always be the solution for year round use. Some people only buy it for prestige too, or people buy it and can't hit the limit or notice any difference. In those cases an M performance model should suffice. Also I've driven a 435i performance edition (dealer car) with the lsd and that pretty much closed the gap on the street where you'd have to push it even harder (probably to reckless driving levels) to notice the edge an M would have.

It's relevant only if the buyer has the intention to use it in winter - many on here drive their M2 in winter, while many others do not.

I'm not judging anyone who buys it merely for perceived prestige or who are so incredibly oblivious to the point they can't tell the difference (which I find hard to believe in some cases*) - it's not my place to tell them "an M performance model should suffice" - if they have the money, they can buy what they want & it's their business. It doesn't affect me or bother me (I do, however, get a kick out of every time I see a non-M car - one that's not M Performance either - where the owner put an M badge on it).

*however, I don't doubt you regarding the 435i 'PE' w/LSD, but not sure what the point is with that statement.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by bobert

It's relevant only if the buyer has the intention to use it in winter - many on here drive their M2 in winter, while many others do not.

I'm not judging anyone who buys it merely for perceived prestige or who are so incredibly oblivious to the point they can't tell the difference (which I find hard to believe in some cases*) - it's not my place to tell them "an M performance model should suffice" - if they have the money, they can buy what they want & it's their business. It doesn't affect me or bother me (I do, however, get a kick out of every time I see a non-M car - one that's not M Performance either - where the owner put an M badge on it).

*however, I don't doubt you regarding the 435i 'PE' w/LSD, but not sure what the point is with that statement.

Yeah I agree, but it does affect us that look for the most extreme variants because the more people that buy M cars for the prestige the more they have to cater to the demand of an average everyday guy. This takes away from the true M experience as you can see cars are getting bigger (more cargo room) and heavier due to more luxury features. But like you said it's their money their choice, I just want to put it out there that a few thousand for a diff and a few hundred for a tune and you'll end up with a comparable experience. So essentially I wanted to let people know they can save some money.

But at the end of the day obviously you don't have to take a word I say and do what makes you happy. Just remember I'm a random dude on the internet, if you don't like or agree with what I say, apologises that I don't emet your expectations, just ignore me and do what makes you happy.

[bobert]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yeah I agree, but it does affect us that look for the most extreme variants because the more people that buy M cars for the prestige the more they have to cater to the demand of an average everyday guy. This takes away from the true M experience as you can see cars are getting bigger (more cargo room) and heavier due to more luxury features. But like you said it's their money their choice, I just want to put it out there that a few thousand for a diff and a few hundred for a tune and you'll end up with a comparable experience. So essentially I wanted to let people know they can save some money.

But at the end of the day obviously you don't have to take a word I say and do what makes you happy. Just remember I'm a random dude on the internet, if you don't like or agree with what I say, apologises that I don't emet your expectations, just ignore me and do what makes you happy.

It looks like BMW wants to steer those of us looking for more extreme M variants into CS and future CSL versions. Instead of one M model at the top of the line, we're starting to get all these new M variants - now we have "base" M, M Competition, M CS, M CSL, etc. If anything, your ire at all these alleged posers is going to cost you more money. Not sure how you determine whether or not someone buys an M car for prestige though; assuming most M buyers are purchasing for prestige and then trying to steer such folks into lesser models seems futile.

For better or worse, I don't think the average M car has been hardcore for a long time, certainly not in the past 20 years or so (except for a few special editions) - before the S55 arrived, the M2 weighed no more than an E46 M3 (which was quite heavy for its time at 3400+ lbs), so if M cars are bloated with luxury features, it's been that way for a while.

At any rate, in general I agree with you in that I would prefer smaller & lighter M cars with more of a sporting focus than luxury - maybe we can work together to steer these buyers (once you tell me how to identify them ) into M SUVs.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by bobert

It looks like BMW wants to steer those of us looking for more extreme M variants into CS and future CSL versions. Instead of one M model at the top of the line, we're starting to get all these new M variants - now we have "base" M, M Competition, M CS, M CSL, etc. If anything, your ire at all these alleged posers is going to cost you more money. Not sure how you determine whether or not someone buys an M car for prestige though; assuming most M buyers are purchasing for prestige and then trying to steer such folks into lesser models seems futile.

For better or worse, I don't think the average M car has been hardcore for a long time, certainly not in the past 20 years or so (except for a few special editions) - before the S55 arrived, the M2 weighed no more than an E46 M3 (which was quite heavy for its time at 3400+ lbs), so if M cars are bloated with luxury features, it's been that way for a while.

At any rate, in general I agree with you in that I would prefer smaller & lighter M cars with more of a sporting focus than luxury - maybe we can work together to steer these buyers (once you tell me how to identify them ) into M SUVs.

I'm not trying to steer anyone, but whatever you say..... I'm just trying to say an M vehicle isn't always necessary for every situation kind of what the OP was asking for.

How do you decern someone buying for prestige, I don't know maybe have a chat with them. For instance I was at the dealership the other day talking to an owner of an m5 asking about his car and if he used it in awd or rwd mode. The owner replied "I didn't know it did that stuff". I asked him what made him chose the F90 m5 over the F10 and the owner replied "because more expensive is better right?, Plus why would I want an outdated previous gen car". There's so many indications where people buy the most expensive car for the sake of showing off, but hey what do I know. I don't know about you but that's a pretty clear prestige indication. But who knows some people think they're pro racers who need M cars on the street for spirited driving but when they hit the track can't make one lap where they follow the racing line if their life depends on it. maybe it's the M placebo effect making drivers feel like they need it.

I like how BMW is making more extreme models, but theyre so limited sometimes they're hard to get ahold of. For example my dealership already as 15 people depositing for the m2 csl, and what happens after they buy it? They try to sell it back for $10k more than msrp (my dealer doesn't mark anything up), so again it ruins it for enthusiasts because people want to make a quick buck on everything and the cars are so limited it's hard to get. That's why I like Ford's approach for the GT where you had to submit an application and state why you wanted the car, and I believe sign a no reslae contract for a few years. That way it's hard for people to try to get resale on cars and ruin it for enthusiasts.

You can steer people any way you want, I'm here to tell people on the fence about getting an M car what way would best suit them based on driving habits, conditions, if it's their only car and if it will be daily driven which direction they should go. If that happens to be an M then they should by all means go for it and get one. That signals to BMW that these cars are in demand and they'll continue to make more. But if every poser buys an M and complains about it riding hard, or having too few luxuries because they didn't expect that from the get go and had to buy it, then future M cars will get softer and softer.

At the end of the day it's your choice I could care less what you do with your money. But if you wanted a second opinion I'll give you mine. If you don't agree that's fine, that's all I can say.

[bobert]

Originally Posted by F87source

I'm not trying to steer anyone, but whatever you say.....

You're not trying to steer anyone? The first paragraph of post #61 begs to differ:

Originally Posted by F87source

Yeah I agree, but it does affect us that look for the most extreme variants because the more people that buy M cars for the prestige the more they have to cater to the demand of an average everyday guy. This takes away from the true M experience as you can see cars are getting bigger (more cargo room) and heavier due to more luxury features. But like you said it's their money their choice, I just want to put it out there that a few thousand for a diff and a few hundred for a tune and you'll end up with a comparable experience. So essentially I wanted to let people know they can save some money.

Originally Posted by F87source

I'm just trying to say an M vehicle isn't always necessary for every situation kind of what the OP was asking for.

No M car is "necessary" - ppl buy them cz they want to, but apparently you only want certain ppl to buy them for certain reasons - ones that fit your agenda, cz you actually think it harms you when the ppl you deem undesirable buy them. OP didn't ask about "every situation" - started the thread with one simple question:

Originally Posted by babaikram

Does it make any sense or worth it to buy M cars when one knows he would never track the car?

Which was answered by the first word of the first reply ("yes"). But I take it you disagree with that answer...

Originally Posted by F87source

How do you decern someone buying for prestige, I don't know maybe have a chat with them. For instance I was at the dealership the other day...

Anecdotal evidence. One person.

Originally Posted by F87source

But who knows some people think they're pro racers who need M cars on the street for spirited driving but when they hit the track can't make one lap where they follow the racing line if their life depends on it. maybe it's the M placebo effect making drivers feel like they need it.

It's not about "need" - ppl buy what they want - the M2 is much more attractive, sounds better, handles better, and has a sporting differential - all of which do enhance even street driving compared to something like an M240i. Not everyone has to be Mario Andretti in order to enjoy that. You assume some ppl think they're pro street racers and that they "need" an M car - maybe they enjoy the way it feels, which is different - and better - than an M240i. You make a lot of assumptions. And apparently you like to argue, even with other ppl who drive the same car, and who aren't even the supposed posers that you scorn and blame for ruining M cars (as if the M2 was a softy). I didn't buy my M2 for prestige anyway, no one NEEDS one, and if they had offered a very hardcore model such as a CSL, I would have skipped it as it would have been overkill for the majority of my use. I certainly don't consider an 'OG' M2 to be overkill on the street, however.

Originally Posted by F87source

That's why I like Ford's approach for the GT where you had to submit an application and state why you wanted the car, and I believe sign a no reslae contract for a few years. That way it's hard for people to try to get resale on cars and ruin it for enthusiasts.

I just knew you were going to cite and approve of that elitist BS that Ford did where ppl had to APPLY for the right to buy a certain car in order to make sure the "right" ppl buy them. Believe me, I am just as disgusted when Lindsay Lohan crashes a powerful sports car she obviously has no business driving, but I support freedom of choice and free will, which unfortunately allows some stupid ppl to make stupid decisions. It's called freedom.

Originally Posted by F87source

You can steer people any way you want, I'm here to tell people on the fence about getting an M car what way would best suit them based on driving habits, conditions, if it's their only car and if it will be daily driven which direction they should go. If that happens to be an M then they should by all means go for it and get one. That signals to BMW that these cars are in demand and they'll continue to make more. But if every poser buys an M and complains about it riding hard, or having too few luxuries because they didn't expect that from the get go and had to buy it, then future M cars will get softer and softer.

At the end of the day it's your choice I could care less what you do with your money. But if you wanted a second opinion I'll give you mine. If you don't agree that's fine, that's all I can say.

Unlike you, I'm not trying to steer anyone. In fact, this was a reasonably entertaining little thread until the elitist fun police showed up. I'm sure everyone appreciates your advice on what "would best suit them"; that way, only desirable would-be buyers can get the car they want.

It's clear you DO care what others do with their money - the evidence is overwhelming. I thank you for elaborating on your opinions.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by bobert

You're not trying to steer anyone? The first paragraph of post #61 begs to differ:






No M car is "necessary" - ppl buy them cz they want to, but apparently you only want certain ppl to buy them for certain reasons - ones that fit your agenda, cz you actually think it harms you when the ppl you deem undesirable buy them. OP didn't ask about "every situation" - started the thread with one simple question:


Which was answered by the first word of the first reply ("yes"). But I take it you disagree with that answer...



Anecdotal evidence. One person.



It's not about "need" - ppl buy what they want - the M2 is much more attractive, sounds better, handles better, and has a sporting differential - all of which do enhance even street driving compared to something like an M240i. Not everyone has to be Mario Andretti in order to enjoy that. You assume some ppl think they're pro street racers and that they "need" an M car - maybe they enjoy the way it feels, which is different - and better - than an M240i. You make a lot of assumptions. And apparently you like to argue, even with other ppl who drive the same car, and who aren't even the supposed posers that you scorn and blame for ruining M cars (as if the M2 was a softy). I didn't buy my M2 for prestige anyway, no one NEEDS one, and if they had offered a very hardcore model such as a CSL, I would have skipped it as it would have been overkill for the majority of my use. I certainly don't consider an 'OG' M2 to be overkill on the street, however.



I just knew you were going to cite and approve of that elitist BS that Ford did where ppl had to APPLY for the right to buy a certain car in order to make sure the "right" ppl buy them. Believe me, I am just as disgusted when Lindsay Lohan crashes a powerful sports car she obviously has no business driving, but I support freedom of choice and free will, which unfortunately allows some stupid ppl to make stupid decisions. It's called freedom.



Unlike you, I'm not trying to steer anyone. In fact, this was a reasonably entertaining little thread until the elitist fun police showed up. I'm sure everyone appreciates your advice on what "would best suit them"; that way, only desirable would-be buyers can get the car they want.

It's clear you DO care what others do with their money - the evidence is overwhelming. I thank you for elaborating on your opinions.

I'm done arguing with you as it'll only derail the thread.

Like I said before if you ask for an opinion you're going to get one whether you like it or not, there's always going to be two sides to the coin. I'm not going to every single person every saying "Yes only an M will be acceptable, you're lesser if you don't get an M". You literally sound like every typical M owner that comes in and trash talks a non M guy. For me I think of every side of the coin, I don't want to be like "yep the M is your best bet it's top of the line for a reason", because that's the best way to go in get a car and complain about it being: too stiff, not having enough features, not having the luxury of another model etc. The end result of just going head first into a car you're not familiar with is you'll get disappointed make a complaint and all of a sudden if enough people do it BMW see's this as what M owners want and then the next generation goes downhill. What I want to do it go in analyze what a particular driver wants to do with a car, then slowly go down the line to see if the end goal points at an M. You say "t's not about "need" - ppl buy what they want", if that was the case then you wouldn't be on an online forum asking for an opinion would you? If you really wanted it, had no second guesses then you would go out and buy it. If you questioned a decision that means you have a likely hood of not liking the outcome and the end result may not be desirable. For my evidence I'm not going to go out and make and start rumours about people, that's why I referred to the person as the "owner" i'm not going to come out with names, gender etc. That's not the point, it's not about starting a sterotype it is about stating anyone can be in that position. If you look through this forum there are alot of threads about bmw owners like this with pictures of them, but I'm not here to ruin anyone's life by posting photos of them acting out.

In regards to the FORD case it was in response to you saying more extreme people should get the M2CS, that's the problem most of us can't get it because people who want to make a quick buck already bought it. So imo I rather have an application for the car, or no limited production one or the other. Because there's no point of having an extreme car for extreme people when, like you said, a celeb crashes one into a tree because it's their daily. But freedom to purchase right? Which loops back to how can we get more extreme versions when they get softer by the year (m2 is a refresh ofc, but vs. the 1m it's getting heavier and we dont have an option to get a stripped out version here in NA). I think it's more elitist when only the super rich can outbid the middle class and afford special cars, and then sell it right back for even more than it was worth. This way atleast you can prove why you want it and derserve it. It's like getting accepted to a graduate school where you had to prove why you deserved to get in, it gives that spot to those who have the drive to want it/deserve it the most, and not the pay to enter model.

You say I assume alot, well I don't read minds, so as a rational thinking individual I make assumptions based on fact based evidence. For example the M2 is significantly stiffer than an m235i which makes road going use more harsh, so you would assume that it daily usage would become irritating and not required for daily use. But of course you're a know it all and know what's best for other people right? It's funny how you say I make alot of assumptions but you keep saying "some people like this or that" which is also an assumption.

The OP posted:
POST 1: "Does it make any sense or worth it to buy M cars when one knows he would never track the car?"

When you say worth it you must bring into account the price increase, the feature differences, and what he will use it for if not on the track.

1) Yes the M2 sounds better, but you can make an m235i sounds literally identical with an exhaust and tune. The thing that makes the m2 sound so much better is the stock exhaust is better flowing and less muffling even vs. the MPE for the m235i. The diff like I said can be solved with an M performance diff, and the total cost would be cheaper than an M2. For handling thats where you have to factor in type of usage, with more ability to steer and fight body roll comes in stiffness, do you really want that for a daily? I find the stock m235i to be pretty compliant and with a set of sway bars makes it so much better without making the ride harsh. So you have to think what the use is and how much more is worth it in these aspects.

2)The m235i also has more (it might not be alot more, but there is more): such as do you want an automatic variant, a manual, awd or rwd, you get the choice of interior color, etc. Now based on type of usage, and "worth it" ratings you may require an X-drive model for all year usage in snow, rain, sunshine what have you. Some people aren't as fortunate to have multiple cars and daily drivers as some others, so they have to spend their money on one car that can do it all. Sure the m2 can handle the snow but reason 3 will explain why the m240i does it better.

3) worth:Non-m's or M performance models tend (based on what I see here in canada) to have alot more leway on negotiations. For my m2 brand new factory ordered back in 2016 when there was still a waiting list and dealers in the states charged markup, I recieved $2500 off of my order and some gifts from the dealership (M plate, key chains, cleaning stuff etc). An m235i in 2014 when I got mine also factory ordered (that makes a difference because it's not a car sitting on the lot the dealer wants to get rid of), I recieved for a pretty heavily speced out model ~$4,500 - $5,500CAD (I need to look at invoices) off and there could be room for more negotiation. Also I do not know any of the dealer employees so I didn't get special treatment. So that's 2X what I got with the m2. BTW insurance (I dont know how that works in the USA) tends to be more with an M.

For usage you have to remember the m2 uses 19" wheels and you have to keep within 3% of factory wheel height to make sure DSC doesn't get fussy. That makes winter tire searching incredible difficult for the car, and alot of 18" wheels don't fit making a second set of tires expensive. Plus finding a wide set of winter tires for the rear is also expensive. So another factor to consider.

4)Maintainece: This is a big one, but for those of you that want to keep the car for long periods of time this is a difficult one because now on top of a bmw tax, you get an M tax. Oil filters are not the same as on the m235i (it's a shared p/n with the s55). Clutches are different, differentials had issues and cost alot to replace, DCT's cost a fortune to service with the clutches inside of them costing alot. Sometimes a DCT service can cost as much as the DCT itself. Spark plugs are different too, suspension components if they wear are different, tires cost alot more, etc.

If you can whole heartedly say yes to box 1-4 in this scenario (OP's case) then sure by all means get the M. But after that I would ask what type of driving they like doing (drag, track, drift, cruise, all purpose - if they have a family and need cargo room. etc) to help guide them to which M model suits them best. The m2 clearly isn't a one size fits all.

But what I dislike (and leads to previous discussions) is when dealers try to force M's on customers making it sound more exotic etc just because the profit margin is probably higher due to the increased cost. They also tend to force customers to M's on the lot or demo models to clear out old inventory, they really don't care too much of what the customer thinks. Of course on a short 30 min test drive the M will feel so much better, sound better, drive better etc. But how will it be day in day out, traffic, maintence box 1-4?

Overall I apologise if you don't like what I have to say but like you said best Im entitled to my own opinion, and I like to break everything down piece by piece. I would say I have reasonable experience in this field because I started in a base 228i back in late 2013 when they started making them, found out the N20 was really weak and had low potential without a motor build, switch to the m235i and realized costs for my use was going to be too high, then ended up with the m2. Who knows I may end up back with my frs because that imo was the best track car I ever owned (after I modified the crap out of it of course). Which is why again "I care about what people do with their money", I don't want them to get screwed over like I did due to a lack of foresight and knowledge, or misled into the glamour of an M. What fits best for someone else may not fit best for another. When you call me an "elitist fun police" I believe that's better than have a thread of a few serious opinions and the rest being "fun entertaining posts", how can they make a decision when there lacks serious posts from both sides. Also I came from the bottom of the barrel racing $500 MX5's slowly progressing to the bottom of the barrel bmw, so I KNOW the value of money which is another reason why i'm so reluctant to recommend an M. If I was an elitist I would careless about the M, it would be my daily and I would be in the porsche game by now. I also know for sure if I was blindly led into an x5m or m5 I would be one of those guys who complained non stop about it and the result, if enough people in my shoes complained could be an X5m that is too stiff, sparse of features etc. Which deprives it's function of being an SUV that is luxurious loaded with features for the family or individual, and super capable for driving in spirited or light track use, to a completely track focused, which is the opposite of what happens with track focused cars.

In regards to "appreciating my advice" it's literally a second opinion, you really dont even have to listen nor care, it's there if you want it and gone if you ignore it.

Alright that's it i'm done from this thread, I said what needed to be said, and sorry OP for the argument kind of getting off topic.

Edit- if I was doing this to my own agenda I'd literally be on every forum telling all but the track guys to buy M's but that's not the case. Most of the time I don't really enter these types of threads, or just post one thing and leave. I've recommended M models to show car guys
drag guys, people that want one daily with track use, collectors, and even to a person that wanted an M for the appeal as it was his dream car. It all depends on the scenario if it is worth it or not. But this case it really resonated with me because OP mentioned worth and value, so I wanted to give my $0.02.

[greasypeanut]

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