[Veebee]

I do not want to read all the posts, I am lazy.

Key information -
M2 test is 10 degrees C = IDEAL
M2C test is 40 degrees C = horrible, the MPSS are easily overheated, plus the engine has less power.

M2C is quicker everywhere end of story.

[Brake_Late]

Originally Posted by Poochie

You're right about the throttle body actuators; they're made of plastic, which the teeth eventually strips, after usage .. I assumed was plastic for weight reduction? but whatever the reason, it pretty obvious BMW only made to last for a finite about of time. My guess, not too long pass the factory warranty.

I smiled when I saw that, nice one BMW..

!

[richb811]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

Not quite sure what you are talking about. Most summer tyres are quoted to have reduce traction only when under 5°C (40°F).

M2C had the grip advantage with track temperature at 41°C(106°F)? When track temperatures rise past a certain point, the PSS actually loses grip. I bet the tyre pressure was well over 40psi during the run and PSS's optimum grip is between 32psi and 35psi hot from my experience.

Actually it's 7 degrees Celsius and below. But a rubber compound doesn't all of a sudden become inflexible at 7 deg C, it gradually gets harder as it approaches that temp. That marker is just a "safe operating range" just like storing perishable items in your pantry.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by richb811

Actually it's 7 degrees Celsius and below.

The 7 degrees thing is a marketing 'fact' just to sell more wintersets.

My PSS on DRY tarmac near zero degrees Celsius, BRAKE and HOLD better/shorter stopping distances than my Pilot Alpins.

And it's because PSS already is a softer tyre by itself, that it lasts longer in very low temps.

In zero C/snowy/ wet conditions it's another story off course!

[papageorge]

Originally Posted by pruettfan

Car capability is one thing, driver capability is the biggest factor. I have seen an FRS with a great driver spank a F80 M3 with a so so driver. I regularly spank cars that have more capability than my og M2. Instead of getting wrapped up I lap times someone else can generate in your car we should be generating our own and improving them. Most M2 buyers of either generation won't use more than maybe 50 percent of the real capability it the car because they don't have the skills or opportunity (most cases both) to use more.

If any owner of such cars will use 50% if its capabilities on public roads will be either irresponsible or crazy!! We own them because we like them, that's it. And maybe once a year we may be able to take them to a track to see what they can do...

[scrammer]

[/QUOTE]
^^^ I don't think it's belittling. There is always something newer and better coming out, so why get attached to a car? If I were a M2 owner, and I absolutely wanted the M2C and I wouldn't take too much of a hit on it, I'd sell too. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with keeping it either, especially if you are upside down. I'm
I'm the same boat with my M3. The ZCP came out with slightly more power and updated suspension for improved handling dynamics. It's a better car, I can't really deny it. It's not going to shave 5 seconds on the track, but it's improved nonetheless. Why would I deny that just because I have the need to defend my M3? Why can't I just admit it and be okay with it? Besides, driver skill plays a larger role in going faster. I'll just work on that. When my M3 is up, I'll upgrade. It's kinda that simple. Don't get so attached to having the fastest car or the best version. It's a game you can't win ^^^.[/QUOTE]

The capitalist calls it "planned obsolescence" ... Remember whatever you have today will not be good enough tomorrow ... according to them.

if you're lucky enough to have a BMW ///M car - just enjoy it ... whatever it is!

[Phantom_9192]

Couple of notes.
The poster with the 21k mile orange E92... nice car! And 21k miles is a major part of why you haven't had any of those well-documented issues. I drove my E92 (selling it tomorrow with 89k) like a grandma 99% of the time and had to replace the throttle actuators and the steering angle sensor. Total bill for those was north of $3k. Still loved the car, don't get me wrong.

Re: ambient temp and tires, the tires will work far less well initially in the cooler temps but if the track has any temperature in it (e.g. sunny) and the driver gets the tires warm for a lap or two, the grip will be very close to any other conditions. Then you lean on the air temp/density advantage.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

The 7 degrees thing is a marketing 'fact' just to sell more wintersets.

My PSS on DRY tarmac near zero degrees Celsius, BRAKE and HOLD better/shorter stopping distances than my Pilot Alpins.

And it's because PSS already is a softer tyre by itself, that it lasts longer in very low temps.

In zero C/snowy/ wet conditions it's another story off course!

I am not entirely sure. The Michelin PSS are frequently cracked and need to be replaced on Corvettes stored outside around here. Maybe GM uses a different compound. Yokohama warns of the same phenomenon with the AD08-R. I think it depends what the glass transition temperature of the compound is.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by chris719

I am not entirely sure. The Michelin PSS are frequently cracked and need to be replaced on Corvettes stored outside around here. Maybe GM uses a different compound. Yokohama warns of the same phenomenon with the AD08-R. I think it depends what the glass transition temperature of the compound is.

I understand. I'm saying even the (already warm off course ) PSS in dry near zero conditions do better than my Alpins. The '7 degrees rule' does not apply in my case, PSS vs Alpin.

Cheers
Robin

[Karmic Man]

A tyre technology technical document from Porsche back in 2016:

The sweet sport for hot pressure target (track use) on the PSS is between 30-38psi, on the Cup 2 it is between 33psi-39psi. Grip chart is included.

Michelin do not recommend using their Ultra High Performance summer tyres when tyre temperature drops below 5°C (40°F). Cracks may develop when tyre temperature drops below -7°C (20°F).

http://pcachs.org/pca-wordpress/wp-c...erMichelin.pdf

Also a bulletin by General Motors regarding high performance tyres equipped on some of their cars

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...82862-5448.pdf

[Robin_NL]

PSS is not an Ultra High Performance tyre so I'm good @ 3 degrees Celsius

I think this has a lot to do with law suits etcetera?

In my country for 4-5 months it can be 7 degrees Celsius or below in the morning/evening. Should I drive with my Alpin winterset then? I do when there is snow/ice etc expected off course.

Cheers
Robin

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

PSS is not an Ultra High Performance tyre so I'm good @ 3 degrees Celsius

I think this has a lot to do with law suits etcetera?

In my country for 4-5 months it can be 7 degrees Celsius or below in the morning/evening. Should I drive with my Alpin winterset then? I do when there is snow/ice etc expected off course.

Cheers
Robin

Yeah I remembered when I was living in Wassenaar between Dec-Mar it either snowed or the road is icy

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

Yeah I remembered when I was living in Wassenaar between Dec-Mar it either snowed or the road is icy

You lived in Wassenaar NL, when was that?
Because now with climate change whatever we don't have that much of freezing/snow etc overhere then what we used to have.

Cheers
Robin

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

You lived in Wassenaar NL, when was that?
Because now with climate change whatever we don't have that much of freezing/snow etc overhere then what we used to have.

Cheers
Robin

Back in the 80s when I was a little kid...so warmer now I guess

[termigni]

Originally Posted by papageorge

If any owner of such cars will use 50% if its capabilities on public roads will be either irresponsible or crazy!! We own them because we like them, that's it. And maybe once a year we may be able to take them to a track to see what they can do...

True story. People in here talking about slight degree of temperature difference as if we about to send these M2 into space and explore Mars.

Seriously how many of you really fight for that last tenth on the track competitively?
Most of these M cars end up looking pretty with their fancy CF parts at Starbucks parking lots.
When I do driving events it all comes down to the driver; Not the ideal temperature, tire pressure, suspension, spoilers.. it's the driver.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by termigni

True story. People in here talking about slight degree of temperature difference as if we about to send these M2 into space and explore Mars.

Seriously how many of you really fight for that last tenth on the track competitively?
Most of these M cars end up looking pretty with their fancy CF parts at Starbucks parking lots.
When I do driving events it all comes down to the driver; Not the ideal temperature, tire pressure, suspension, spoilers.. it's the driver.

I agree with your sentiment.

However, I have been to NJ, NY, PA lots of times at different times of the year. It doesn’t get as hot as here but it definitely does get pretty hot and humid. If you have never noticed that your car performs like a turd in that weather even on the street then I do have to wonder.

[richb811]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

The 7 degrees thing is a marketing 'fact' just to sell more wintersets.

My PSS on DRY tarmac near zero degrees Celsius, BRAKE and HOLD better/shorter stopping distances than my Pilot Alpins.

And it's because PSS already is a softer tyre by itself, that it lasts longer in very low temps.

In zero C/snowy/ wet conditions it's another story off course!

I disagree, it's an actual fact. Not marketing fluff.

Pilot Alpins have a significantly more flexible tread compound due to the siping design and high silica compound, which could also be contributing to the overall braking performance. Again, this is an apples to oranges comparison.

While I don't doubt your experience, this is just your experience and not the general consensus, and certainly doesn't apply to all brands/makes of tires.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by richb811

I disagree, it's an actual fact. Not marketing fluff.

Pilot Alpins have a significantly more flexible tread compound due to the siping design and high silica compound, which could also be contributing to the overall braking performance. Again, this is an apples to oranges comparison.

While I don't doubt your experience, this is just your experience and not the general consensus, and certainly doesn't apply to all brands/makes of tires.

I understand, but my own experience is off course way more important for ME than 'general consensus'.
And I know for sure there are a few more who think the same. But if they don't open their mouth we'll never know. Call it 'second opinion'....


So it's definitely not an 'actual fact' That's when 'general consensus' is 100% or 100/100 shows the same.

It's a bit like the global warming/climate change thingy: 95 out of 100 scientists say X and 5 say Y. And then they call it 'general consensus'.

No offence but do you have any experience with different tyres/compounds/temperatures?

And off course it's marketing. a few decades ago we didn't hear of 7 degrees Celsius....


Cheers
Robin

[Robin_NL]

And there are several (and I mean several) (German) tests which show Summer sports tyres being better(steering/G force/braking distances) than its winter tyre counterpart on cold DRY TARMAC. Because I was talking about cold dry tarmac.

But we're probably stating the same with different ways of explanation.

Dry tarmac....

This is were we drive/drift etc (I since 2004)
https://atppbg.de/en/

Cheers
Robin

[richb811]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

No offence but do you have any experience with different tyres/compounds/temperatures?

I'm a wheel/tire analyst for an OEM that does over 300 million in tire sales a year in the USA alone.

Not to mention I was a vendor sponsoring this forum for over 5 years before I moved to OEM, sold quite a few wheels and tires before I got into the development game.

I'm being rude, I forgot to answer your question.

Yes, I have some experience.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

And there are several (and I mean several) (German) tests which show Summer sports tyres being better(steering/G force/braking distances) than its winter tyre counterpart on cold DRY TARMAC. Because I was talking about cold dry tarmac.

But we're probably stating the same with different ways of explanation.

Dry tarmac....

This is were we drive/drift etc (I since 2004)
https://atppbg.de/en/

Cheers
Robin

There are tests that show the summer tire has shorter dry braking distances, like this one also:

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/access...rands-reviewed

But they mention they tested in conditions that were above 7C. Whether or not the summer tire is better I think strongly depends on the outside temperature. They will have a higher glass transition temperature and may lose grip rapidly once below a certain point.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

The 7 degrees thing is a marketing 'fact' just to sell more wintersets.

My PSS on DRY tarmac near zero degrees Celsius, BRAKE and HOLD better/shorter stopping distances than my Pilot Alpins.

And it's because PSS already is a softer tyre by itself, that it lasts longer in very low temps.

In zero C/snowy/ wet conditions it's another story off course!

Wow that is outstanding.

Thanks for the info.