[akkando]

Originally Posted by chris719

It seems like a big mistake to have designed B58 without accounting for the regulations change if it really reduces power by that much. Your theory makes some sense, but are they really going to produce M4 ZCP and CS with 500 hp equivalent tunes from the factory?

That's going to be some spun crank hubs if that's true!

[Nebelhinten]

Originally Posted by chris719

It seems like a big mistake to have designed B58 without accounting for the regulations change if it really reduces power by that much. Your theory makes some sense, but are they really going to produce M4 ZCP and CS with 500 hp equivalent tunes from the factory?

First Z4 review I read thought maybe it was a mistake or they misheard the engineers. That's why I checked the other reviews. Anyway, that's what the Z4 prototype reviewers were told by BMW. Knowing that the M2C euro was also getting a particulate filter, I just wondered why their wasn't a similar disparity between US and euro spec in terms of hp. As some suggested, one explanation might be simply increasing hp of euro version M2C to compensate for hp lost to filter. That seems possible to me since we know S55 can go higher than 410hp, but I don't know that is what they did. In terms of B58, I'm really not sure if these regulations preceded its development or why they can't compensate for the filter in euro version of Z4. What is clear, however, at least in terms of Z M40i, according to BMW euro version will be down almost 50 hp due to the gas particulate filter. Would like to hear more detailed explanation from BMW.

[Nebelhinten]

This reviewer seems to confirm idea that euro M2C is tuned higher than US spec:

"This S55 engine has a different software mapping for different markets. For example, European cars are slightly neutered by the OPF (Otto Particulate Filter) which is elaborately integrated into the already complex exhaust gas purification system. Basically, this means that a more aggressive tune is being used in those cars, while the US and Asian markets get a slightly different mapping. In the end, both produce the same power at the wheels and that’s something that customer would only care about."

[chris719]

Originally Posted by akkando

That's going to be some spun crank hubs if that's true!

Maybe, only BMW know the true cause. They still aren't very common, even among tuned guys. There are two root causes from what I understand, one being the bolt backing out and the other being the friction disc slipping. It's possible that the stock engines that fail just had poorly balanced cranks or more vibration from manufacturing tolerances and that caused the bolt to back out, so not necessarily power related. N55 uses the same parts for crank hub I'm pretty sure even though we never hear of it happening.

[DieGrüneHölle]

Info has to be out their, numerous other models in Europe now have OPF's.

https://www.bmwblog.com/2018/01/17/c...-filter-march/

[chmura]

Just remove the filter. I do not think there pre/post sensors on the filter. The ecu won’t know if the filter is there or not once removed. Remove the filter and tune the engine. Problem solved.

[MR.]

Originally Posted by chmura

Just remove the filter. I do not think there pre/post sensors on the filter. The ecu won’t know if the filter is there or not once removed. Remove the filter and tune the engine. Problem solved.

Yup but also loosing your warranty.

MR

[n55co]

Originally Posted by MR.

Yup but also loosing your warranty.

MR

there will be an differential pressure sensor, placed at the first OPF.
Partnumbers for US and EU version are different for first cat/OPF, mid cats/OPF and muffler.

Partnumbers for US Version and M3/M4 are the same (for Downpipes)

[MR.]

Originally Posted by n55co

there will be an differential pressure sensor, placed at the first OPF. Part numbers for US and EU version are different for first cat/OPF, mid cats/OPF and muffler. Part numbers for US Version and M3/M4 are the same (for Downpipes)

The trick will be if you can install the U.S. tune. I should ask my dealer ship me a U.S. spec car LOL

MR

[MR.]

Lucky enough I am today on-site at the tuning business which I work for and where I am finishing my MINI GP2 project. Cage, belts and seats and it is ready for the track and the Ring.

In house we have a software tuning specialist and we sad down to discuss the new set up for the M2C. He was really interested to hear about the OPF filter, which is nothing other than a DPF filter which is used for petrol cars.

We ran through the set up of how a tune works when installed in an ECU and we looked into ways to install an exhaust without dealing with the tune of the engine. Before I dive into it further, you U.S. guys are freaking lucky and we Europeans are pretty much f***ed.

The OPF will definitely have a set of sensors that will measure the pressure before and after the filter. It will have to in case the filter gets clogged up as a safety measure. Removing the OPF means removing the sensors or at least telling the sensors that all is well. If you don't the car runs into limp mode, because the sensors detect a failure.

This means that offering of exhaust systems for the M2C in Europe is going to be limited to slip-on kits or full exhaust systems with a OPF included, and not full exhaust systems (with hardly any muffler) and sport down pipes. If you want to remove it all from front to back, you have to do an engine tune to the car. There is no way around it, and we all know what that means; exit factory warranty.

The only solution I could see is having a dealer flash your car as if it is non-European car. This way you would be able to bypass the removal of the OPF filter. There is no other way around it, or we have forgotten or overlooked something. The European M2C is simply not to tune without loosing warranty. I called some contacts in the tuning market and we are all agreeing on the same thing that the OPF is minimizing tuning options.

MR

[n55co]

Originally Posted by MR.

Lucky enough I am today on-site at the tuning business which I work for and where I am finishing my MINI GP2 project. Cage, belts and seats and it is ready for the track and the Ring.

In house we have a software tuning specialist and we sad down to discuss the new set up for the M2C. He was really interested to hear about the OPF filter, which is nothing other than a DPF filter which is used for petrol cars.

We ran through the set up of how a tune works when installed in an ECU and we looked into ways to install an exhaust without dealing with the tune of the engine. Before I dive into it further, you U.S. guys are freaking lucky and we Europeans are pretty much f***ed.

The OPF will definitely have a set of sensors that will measure the pressure before and after the filter. It will have to in case the filter gets clogged up as a safety measure. Removing the OPF means removing the sensors or at least telling the sensors that all is well. If you don't the car runs into limp mode, because the sensors detect a failure.

This means that offering of exhaust systems for the M2C in Europe is going to be limited to slip-on kits or full exhaust systems with a OPF included, and not full exhaust systems (with hardly any muffler) and sport down pipes. If you want to remove it all from front to back, you have to do an engine tune to the car. There is no way around it, and we all know what that means; exit factory warranty.

The only solution I could see is having a dealer flash your car as if it is non-European car. This way you would be able to bypass the removal of the OPF filter. There is no other way around it, or we have forgotten or overlooked something. The European M2C is simply not to tune without loosing warranty. I called some contacts in the tuning market and we are all agreeing on the same thing that the OPF is minimizing tuning options.

MR

Just some random thoughts, without seeing the engine/exhaust in person yet.

The ECU will excpect a certain value from the differential pressure sensor, which have to be in a specific range, so it is not too empty or too full.
It should be possible to produce aftermarked OPF Filters, which have less cells, actually the same as for Donwpipe (e.g. HJS) (trick the sensor could be an option as well).

Secondary OPF will not have any sensors, same for muffler (at least not listed in partcatalog)

[arquitecto]

It seems like the OPF is another nail in the ICE coffin. Will all future ICE have an OPF or is this only a retrofit to existing engines to make them meet emissions?

I have no doubt tuners will adapt and use their ingenuity to work around it but as you say, goodbye warranty just for switching out an exhaust will put off many. The hardcore enthusiasts who are already going for 500hp tunes will see this as a small hurdle but proceed regardless. It’s the “light tuners” that try to keep warranty intact while customizing that will really suffer.

[MR.]

Originally Posted by n55co

Just some random thoughts, without seeing the engine/exhaust in person yet.

The ECU will excpect a certain value from the differential pressure sensor, which have to be in a specific range, so it is not too empty or too full.
It should be possible to produce aftermarked OPF Filters, which have less cells, actually the same as for Donwpipe (e.g. HJS) (trick the sensor could be an option as well).

Secondary OPF will not have any sensors, same for muffler (at least not listed in partcatalog)

OPF filters with less cells don't exist. An OPF is plastic, a catalytic converter is metal on the inside!

MR

[chmura]

I want to see some U.S. based reviews.

To my understanding the U.S. M2c do not come with the gasoline particle filter. These should be some tuning difference between U.S. and Euro spec cars.

Also, people that are waiting to purchase an M2c. I advise you guys to get a M2c ASAP as the 2020 MY U.S. spec cars will most likely come with a GPF.

People these days have the wrong assumptions. People think the longer you wait cars get better and better, this is not true.

[n55co]

Originally Posted by MR.

OPF filters with less cells don't exist. An OPF is plastic, a catalytic converter is metal on the inside!

MR

never said anything about metal... you can still check the option if it is possible to make cells bigger and reduce backpressure or trick the sensor and remove the OPF.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by MR.

Lucky enough I am today on-site at the tuning business which I work for and where I am finishing my MINI GP2 project. Cage, belts and seats and it is ready for the track and the Ring.

In house we have a software tuning specialist and we sad down to discuss the new set up for the M2C. He was really interested to hear about the OPF filter, which is nothing other than a DPF filter which is used for petrol cars.

We ran through the set up of how a tune works when installed in an ECU and we looked into ways to install an exhaust without dealing with the tune of the engine. Before I dive into it further, you U.S. guys are freaking lucky and we Europeans are pretty much f***ed.

The OPF will definitely have a set of sensors that will measure the pressure before and after the filter. It will have to in case the filter gets clogged up as a safety measure. Removing the OPF means removing the sensors or at least telling the sensors that all is well. If you don't the car runs into limp mode, because the sensors detect a failure.

This means that offering of exhaust systems for the M2C in Europe is going to be limited to slip-on kits or full exhaust systems with a OPF included, and not full exhaust systems (with hardly any muffler) and sport down pipes. If you want to remove it all from front to back, you have to do an engine tune to the car. There is no way around it, and we all know what that means; exit factory warranty.

The only solution I could see is having a dealer flash your car as if it is non-European car. This way you would be able to bypass the removal of the OPF filter. There is no other way around it, or we have forgotten or overlooked something. The European M2C is simply not to tune without loosing warranty. I called some contacts in the tuning market and we are all agreeing on the same thing that the OPF is minimizing tuning options.

MR

Good info. Is there not any other petrol cars in EU market with OPF, that you can see how they dealt with it. I don’t think the M2C is first car to be fitted with OPF.

[MR.]

Originally Posted by hellrotm

Good info. Is there not any other petrol cars in EU market with OPF, that you can see how they dealt with it. I don’t think the M2C is first car to be fitted with OPF.

It is the first one I am dealing with... And the subject is quite new for tuners, but they are aware with DPF's in diesel cars.

I did a few calls with contacts at the big BMW tuning companies in Germany today and they are all aware of the issue and will investigate what they can do when their car arrives.

I am going to work with them and see what we can do to improve the drive train, remove the OPF and see how we can get around the issues. The first questions already came in at their ends and they have multiple customers asking for high performance tuning kits already.

All in all, it is annoying, but hey... another challenge making it work for everyone in the community. I am already doing the calls and work, even though I am not a happy bunny about this situation at all.

MR

[MR.]

Originally Posted by n55co

never said anything about metal... you can still check the option if it is possible to make cells bigger and reduce backpressure or trick the sensor and remove the OPF.

Interesting thought, but it would require software tuning to deal with changes in the levels the sensors measure.

MR

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by MR.

It is the first one I am dealing with... And the subject is quite new for tuners, but they are aware with DPF's in diesel cars.

I did a few calls with contacts at the big BMW tuning companies in Germany today and they are all aware of the issue and will investigate what they can do when their car arrives.

I am going to work with them and see what we can do to improve the drive train, remove the OPF and see how we can get around the issues. The first questions already came in at their ends and they have multiple customers asking for high performance tuning kits already.

All in all, it is annoying, but hey... another challenge making it work for everyone in the community. I am already doing the calls and work, even though I am not a happy bunny about this situation at all.

MR

+1

I am sure fellow Euro members will appreciate your work, as well as MY2019 M4 owners.

EU really did a number on their auto companies that produce sports cars.

I just got done reading about particulate filters on Rennlist. The new GT3 RS in EU has particulate filters, owners were trying to get early allocations to avoid OPF.

Edit: Did some more reading, .2 RS Euro buyers are freaking out on Rennlist. This particulate filter must be awful. Numerous stated minimum 20hp loss. Also the OPF might spell out the death for NA GT 911's.

[hellrotm]

I think your on to something big here MR. It looks like US is no longer playing second fiddle to Europe engine power ratings. The new EU regulations have flipped the HP game in favor of the US/Asia markets.


To follow up on #1 in the OP. Two more publications stating particulate filter in new Z4 robs nearly 50hp.

PistonHeads: "Outside Europe this has been given a power boost to 382hp, but EU spec cars will come with a petrol particulate filter - yes, that's a thing now - limiting output to the 335hp of the M240i."

Autoblog: "But unlike the European version that gets stuck with a particulate filter for their tighter emissions rules, Stateside-bound Z4s will enjoy a juicy 50-horsepower gain that brings total output to 382 hp"

C&D: "This was the car we got to drive in France, although in its lesser European state of tune—apparently the presence of a gasoline particulate filter limits output to 335 horsepower, while in the States it should make 382 horses, according to BMW engineers."

[MR.]

hellrotm, anything you find, add it here...

And yes, the NA GT3 (RS) is dead for the 992 series, the new GT4 RS is also turbocharged, but more interestingly we are going back to NA across the board. Turbo engines are dead for the next generation of engines. It will all be NA + hybrid assistance in the next 5 to 10 years.

The main reason is because the cars don't meet regulations and we need the damn filters to make them meet the extremely strict regulations in 2025 I believe.

I am still brainstorming ideas on the subject of dealing with the OPF. I have some initial ideas which I first want to investigate more and test with some tuners before dropping it out there.

For now be aware that almost every new car arriving on the European market has that damn filter installed to comply to regulations. Add that to the way the German authorities are demanding a range of new certifications on all kinds of aftermarket parts and checking thoroughly as well.

Another news fact is that all German manufacturers have massive problems with the new WLTP rules. All engines have to be retested on their emissions. This is why you currently cannot order a Porsche as a European until the end of January! Next to remodeling the factory in Zuffenhausen for the new Taycan, they are dealing with the new emissions shit.

Audi has stopped production of a large majority of models and are retesting all engines right now starting with the most sold ones. They have to test current and new cars, and they have to test every variation possible. That means leather seats with engine 1, and cloth seats with engine 1, hatchbank with engine 2, manual gearbox in a convertible version with engine 3, etc.

VW has stopped production of the Golf GTI I believe, Audi has removed a whole bunch of cars from their configurators so that you cannot order them anymore in Europe, and I saw a list of cars that you cannot officially get anymore in the Netherlands. Just not available anymore until they are made compliant.

Next to that there is the exhaust story as well, which we touched on in a different topic. I heard today there are police brigades in German cities actively on the look out for loud exhausts they hear through or in the streets. They pull over people and confiscate cars if they do not comply to local TUV rules.

Something is happening in Europe due to dieselgate and it will have a massive impact on the tuning world and engagement of new cars that are arriving. Via my access in the automotive world I heard many new cars start up and walked around them, and I can ensure you the M2C sounds like heaven in comparison to those new machines.

MR

[chris719]

Originally Posted by MR.

hellrotm, anything you find, add it here...

And yes, the NA GT3 (RS) is dead for the 992 series, the new GT4 RS is also turbocharged, but more interestingly we are going back to NA across the board. Turbo engines are dead for the next generation of engines. It will all be NA + hybrid assistance in the next 5 to 10 years.

The main reason is because the cars don't meet regulations and we need the damn filters to make them meet the extremely strict regulations in 2025 I believe.

I am still brainstorming ideas on the subject of dealing with the OPF. I have some initial ideas which I first want to investigate more and test with some tuners before dropping it out there.

For now be aware that almost every new car arriving on the European market has that damn filter installed to comply to regulations. Add that to the way the German authorities are demanding a range of new certifications on all kinds of aftermarket parts and checking thoroughly as well.

Another news fact is that all German manufacturers have massive problems with the new WLTP rules. All engines have to be retested on their emissions. This is why you currently cannot order a Porsche as a European until the end of January! Next to remodeling the factory in Zuffenhausen for the new Taycan, they are dealing with the new emissions shit.

Audi has stopped production of a large majority of models and are retesting all engines right now starting with the most sold ones. They have to test current and new cars, and they have to test every variation possible. That means leather seats with engine 1, and cloth seats with engine 1, hatchbank with engine 2, manual gearbox in a convertible version with engine 3, etc.

VW has stopped production of the Golf GTI I believe, Audi has removed a whole bunch of cars from their configurators so that you cannot order them anymore in Europe, and I saw a list of cars that you cannot officially get anymore in the Netherlands. Just not available anymore until they are made compliant.

Next to that there is the exhaust story as well, which we touched on in a different topic. I heard today there are police brigades in German cities actively on the look out for loud exhausts they hear through or in the streets. They pull over people and confiscate cars if they do not comply to local TUV rules.

Something is happening in Europe due to dieselgate and it will have a massive impact on the tuning world and engagement of new cars that are arriving. Via my access in the automotive world I heard many new cars start up and walked around them, and I can ensure you the M2C sounds like heaven in comparison to those new machines.

MR

I blame VW and the diesel lobby for this. It is insane, they push diesel so hard in Europe for decades when it is the primary contributor to smog via NOx particulates, and now they are applying crazy standards to petrol engines which are much cleaner still than all the little diesel shitboxes running around...