[Nezil]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Nezil, it seems STG1 on E15 is doing better than typical stock on proper 91. I would log STG2 on E20~30. Should octane hold up well, that's what you can settle with for long term.

2 years ago Terry@bms tested 91+E30 on map1 where boost peaks 18~19 and taper to 15~16. M2 picks up 50whp on fully stock hardware.

My point is, on E30+AKI88 that you have, you probably will have the power you wanted in the first place from BM3. And engine will be just as happy as stock car on proper 91.

Life will be a lot easier if you don't pursue super clean ignition.

Earlier today I filled up with 5 gallons of Bay Area ACN 91 (~88 AKI it seems), and 2 gallons of E85; this nets out to E30.

I flashed Stage 2 E30 OTS and have been running that for about 5 miles (taking my kids to the pool and back!), and it seems to run fine, but I've not taken logs yet. What is the difference, and pros and cons of the E30 map vs the Stage 2 91 or 93 octane OTS maps when running E30 fuel?

An E85 mix could work as a mid term solution. I can get E85 quite easily and it's cheap, but I'll need to take logs of some pulls to make sure the HPFP is holding up OK. Are there any other risks / issues with running E30 on a long term basis on our cars?

For reference, Dzenan suggested changing plugs, and also said that running WMI is very helpful for the low octane issues I'm facing. I'm open to investigating that, and my charge pipe does have bungs for nozzles, but I really don't know much about it.

[SeanWRT]

The E30 map has high ignition target that need to be supported by 30% ethanol and 70% proper 91/93, which you don't have. You'll end up timing correction due to inadequate octane that you've been trying to avoid.

Plus, honestly I don't think stock fueling can support STG2 E30 map when IAT goes below 80F up top. I suggest you stay E20 if it gives enough octane.

WMI is the single greatest power adder for N55 platform, second only to a STG2 turbo. It gives octane, cooling and fueling at the same time. One of my M2 buddies is FBO with stock turbo + meth + E20 on JB4 without even BEF and is a little faster than my Dinan turbo on custom flash 93OCT.

If you can live with having flammable material in the car and having a water tank in the trunk and having to add meth from time to time and risking octane & HPFP insufficiency should meth fail, do it.

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

The E30 map has high ignition target that need to be supported by 30% ethanol and 70% proper 91/93, which you don't have. You'll end up timing correction due to inadequate octane that you've been trying to avoid.

Ah, that makes sense. E85 does increase octane rating, but an E30 mix of true 93 + E85 would equate to 96.2 AKI; 91 + E85 would equate to 94.7 AKI; and my crappy 88 AKI + E85 only gets to 92.5 AKI.

These calculations assume that AKI blends linearly, and it typically doesn't, but I get your point.

For reference, using the same linear maths, E20 made from my crappy 88 AKI + E85 = 90.3 AKI.

Plus, honestly I don't think stock fueling can support E30 map when IAT below 80F up top. I suggest you stay E20 if it gives enough octane.

Yes, that was my concern. I can add some more crappy 88 AKI to get to E20 and give that a try before I gather some logs, that might be safer.

My concern using the Stage 2 OTS map is if the AFR would end up too lean. I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the E30 map had more fueling to account for the lower amount of energy in Ethanol.

WMI is the single greatest power adder for N55 platform, second only to a STG2 turbo. It gives octane, cooling and fueling at the same time.

If you can live with having flammable material in the car and having a tank in the trunk and having to add meth from time to time and risking octane & HPFP insufficiency should meth fail, do it.

I'll have to do some investigation into this then as a possible longer term project. I'd like a discrete install, but there isn't a hidden tank solution that I'm aware of for the 2 series. It's also annoying to have to wire in another OBD device to control the WMI system. I don't think BM3 can control it directly because the DME has no control for that.

[Nezil]

So based on the comments of SeanWRT and cookiesowns, I'm going to first flash the Stage 2 91 Octane OTS map with my E30 blend and then go and get some logs. If it looks like my HPFP is suffering (it probably will be), then I'll fill the rest of the tank up with my Bay Area ACN 91 which will bring me to an E20 blend, then get more logs again.

Stand by for logs, or comment quickly before I head off to do this!

[Nezil]

I don't have time to post the charts yet, but here are some logs. E30, as expected, resulted in HPFP crash, down as low as 1,200 psi, which starves the engine of fuel, and feels a bit like you've hit the rev limiter at 5,000 rpm. Timing looked super clean on the logs before the HPFP crashed, but I can't seem to get those logs to load now.

I then went to a gas station and filled up with 6 gallons more of my local 91 fuel, diluting my mix to E20. The logs below are taken with that fuel mix, though to be honest, I've not given it much time to mix fully:

• Run 1 - http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b1b632fd10b437faba93b41
• Run 2 - http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b1b635ed10b437faba93b42
• Run 3 - http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b1b6744d10b437faba93b4d
• Run 4 - http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b1b6773d10b437faba93b4e
• Run 5 - http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b1b67b2d10b437faba93b50
• Run 6 - http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b1b67dfd10b437faba93b51
• Run 7 - http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b1b6869d10b437faba93b56
• Run 8 - http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b1b68bdd10b437faba93b58
• Run 9 - http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b1b6904d10b437faba93b59

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by Nezil

I don't have time to post the charts yet, but here are some logs. E30, as expected, resulted in HPFP crash, down as low as 1,200 psi, which starves the engine of fuel, and feels a bit like you've hit the rev limiter at 5,000 rpm. Timing looked super clean on the logs before the HPFP crashed, but I can't seem to get those logs to load now.

I then went to a gas station and filled up with 6 gallons more of my local 91 fuel, diluting my mix to E20. The logs below are taken with that fuel mix, though to be honest, I've not given it much time to mix fully:

logs look great,you can see the STFT/LTFT adjust between pulls, so by pull 9 it was mixing and the DME was adapting.

I think your poormans ( or wise man ) octane booster of adding just a bit E85 is very helpful to the octane you're getting.


What I do wonder is why your fuel is so poor there..

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by cookiesowns

logs look great,you can see the STFT/LTFT adjust between pulls, so by pull 9 it was mixing and the DME was adapting.

I think your poormans ( or wise man ) octane booster of adding just a bit E85 is very helpful to the octane you're getting.

Thanks very much for the feedback.

I think I'm starting to understand the timing traces in logs, thanks to what you and SeanWRT have said in the past. A clean trace shows that you have tuning headroom left, which means it's not bad, but also somewhat un-optimised. A slightly rough trace, with one or two cylinders showing reduced timing, but with a spread of less than 3 degrees is sort of optimal, showing that you're at the limit of your octane / boost / fueling.

The differences are subtle to the un-trained eye. Obviously clean traces are obvious, but just what constitutes an acceptable vs a poor trace is more difficult to discern without experience.

What I do wonder is why your fuel is so poor there..

Yes... me too, hence the other thread I made about this. I'm still trying to gather data from more people located here to see if I'm an isolated case (i.e. my car is hyper sensitive), but that doesn't seem to be the situation at all.

XProject, akkando, Mdkcrf250r, Norcalmav23 & Mnoob2 are all based up here, and active on the forums.

Based on posts from these guys, they're running the following mods:

• akkando - None... yet ;-)
• XProject - Unknown
• Mdkcrf250r - Catless DP, usually mixes 1 gallon of 118 AKI Leaded and runs the BM3 93 Stage 2 OTS
• Norcalmav23 - FBO, uses Boostane every tank, and runs the BM3 93 Stage 2 OTS
• Mnoob2 - Running a Dinan Stage 1 Turbo, and most recently a custom tune from Cary Jordan

@akkando doesn't have a way of capturing logs yet.

Mdkcrf250r has offered to work together to gather logs on the same pump gas from the same exact pump, both on a Stage 1 91 OTS map once I'm back from vacation (June 12th ~ July 5th).

Mnoob2 has been trying Race Gas blends, presumably to improve octance, and is now running a custom map. He PM'd me some logs before the custom map, and they don't look great, but perhaps too few to draw any conclusion.

Overall, there is still no way to draw a consensus that Bay Area full is definitely worse that other regions in California, but I still think that's the most likely explanation.

[XProject]

Nezil I only have Fabspeed Sport Cat DP for now. I'm willing to help. I can also get e-net cable to start learning or easier method as needed. lmk.

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by XProject

Nezil I only have Fabspeed Sport Cat DP for now. I'm willing to help. I can also get e-net cable to start learning or easier method as needed. lmk.

Hi XProject, thanks for responding. By far the easiest way to datalog is to use the BM3 platform with the OBD Agent Device, which is simply a Raspberry Pi 3B.

If you don't have a BM3 license, then you're in the same boat as akkando. Logging doesn't require you to unlock your DME as far as I know, but BM3 doesn't have a 'logging only' version of their software. I've asked proTUNING Freaks about this, in the hope that they might support this investigation, but I've not heard back from them yet.

The other option, though I've not investigated it, is to use a WiFi OBD Dongle and Torque Pro. It's certainly not as user friendly as the BM3 logging / dashboard, but I understand it is powerful.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by Nezil

Hi XProject, thanks for responding. By far the easiest way to datalog is to use the BM3 platform with the OBD Agent Device, which is simply a Raspberry Pi 3B.

If you don't have a BM3 license, then you're in the same boat as akkando. Logging doesn't require you to unlock your DME as far as I know, but BM3 doesn't have a 'logging only' version of their software. I've asked proTUNING Freaks about this, in the hope that they might support this investigation, but I've not heard back from them yet.

The other option, though I've not investigated it, is to use a WiFi OBD Dongle and Torque Pro. It's certainly not as user friendly as the BM3 logging / dashboard, but I understand it is powerful.

I do have torque pro, it's kind of finicky with my obd reader but it did work.... but I'm not sure if it can help check fuel quality?

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by akkando

I do have torque pro, it's kind of finicky with my obd reader but it did work.... but I'm not sure if it can help check fuel quality?

I think you can have it log similar parameters to BM3. The main ones I think would be:

• Timing for each cylinder
• Engine Speed
• Throttle Angle
• Accelerator Position
• Inlet Air Temperature
• Boost Target
• Boost Pressure
• Knock Detected

I'm sure there are a few other interesting things that you might want to log, but since you're running the stock map, and we're trying to check for octane deficiency, these should be enough.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by Nezil

I think you can have it log similar parameters to BM3. The main ones I think would be:

• Timing for each cylinder
• Engine Speed
• Throttle Angle
• Accelerator Position
• Inlet Air Temperature
• Boost Target
• Boost Pressure
• Knock Detected

I'm sure there are a few other interesting things that you might want to log, but since you're running the stock map, and we're trying to check for octane deficiency, these should be enough.

Yea, there is a bunch of stuff, I will look into it.

Also on Bimmerlink I think I found the value for fuel quality but just comes up as 0.00 for me which is its best quality..... which obviously isn't true.

faktor adaptierte kraftstoffqualitat (0=ROZ98 / 1.0=ROZ91)
factor adapted fuel quality

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by akkando

Yea, there is a bunch of stuff, I will look into it.

Also on Bimmerlink I think I found the value for fuel quality but just comes up as 0.00 for me which is its best quality..... which obviously isn't true.

faktor adaptierte kraftstoffqualitat (0=ROZ98 / 1.0=ROZ91)
factor adapted fuel quality

That's the correct value. I don't believe the 0 is best fuel quality is accurate.

As far as I know, 0 is adapted for worse, and 1.0 is best. It's a multiplier of sorts.

[akkando]

Says 0 is 98 and 1 is 91. 98 being the superior fuel.

however, perhaps the app author mixed up the description. I guess I could email him and ask.

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by akkando

Says 0 is 98 and 1 is 91. 98 being the superior fuel.

however, perhaps the app author mixed up the description. I guess I could email him and ask.

[IMG]https://autorevue.at/files/uploads/2...en-960x539.jpg[/IMG]

This is interesting... 91 RON is low. The established wisdom is that 95 RON ~ 91 AKI (RON + MON / 2). 91 RON would therefore be somewhere lower than that, around 87 AKI?

If you're getting a reading of 0.0, maybe that's because your car thinks you're running 91 RON / 87 AKI? That would fit with what we're trying to find out, but I suspect there is some other issue here because I'd have thought you'd get something other than just 0.0!

[akkando]

Originally Posted by Nezil

This is interesting... 91 RON is low. The established wisdom is that 95 RON ~ 91 AKI (RON + MON / 2). 91 RON would therefore be somewhere lower than that, around 87 AKI?

If you're getting a reading of 0.0, maybe that's because your car thinks you're running 91 RON / 87 AKI? That would fit with what we're trying to find out, but I suspect there is some other issue here because I'd have thought you'd get something other than just 0.0!

According to the description lower value is better. I'm trying to clarify over email with the app author.

faktor adaptierte kraftstoffqualitat (0=ROZ98 / 1.0=ROZ91) 

[horsepower_and_hounds]

So the author has 2 $27 apps, Bimmerlink & Bimmercode? Cha Ching.....

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by akkando

According to the description lower value is better. I'm trying to clarify over email with the app author.

faktor adaptierte kraftstoffqualitat (0=ROZ98 / 1.0=ROZ91)*

I believe the description is incorrect. I’ll pull up the PID on esys and see.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by cookiesowns

I believe the description is incorrect. I’ll pull up the PID on esys and see.

Had a chance to pull that PID to see if 0 is 98ROZ like it says?

[SeanWRT]

The octane rating in app's opinion doesn't really matter once you can track timing. All you need to know is that the gasoline in the tank and the map DME follows work well.

I think Nezil is doing great on E20.

Next step, should you not mind burning another 2k5 (plus labor), my suggestion would be Pure Stage 2, or TTE460 if you want faster spool more than 500+whp. And these turbos will release you from needing for E20 mix and allow for running OTS 93/E30 map on pump gas. Sound desirable.

Because free flow turbine SIGNIFICANTLY improves ignition. It makes a much happier and yet much more powerful engine, without even needing further tuning. I can tell you PWG N55 instantly caps out 16 degree of ignition on stock map once PS2 installed, compared with stock turbo struggling at 8~9 on pump gas. (Forget about a moment please how PWG stock map ridiculously target timing LOL).
No mention there is always someone with BM3 platform to support you wherever your hardware takes you.

From a cost efficiency perspective, what a STG2 turbo nets you on pump gas from FBO+Tune, could be even greater than what FBO+Tune does from stock. And a happier engine, and much more usable power that peak TQ/HP number can't tell.

Think about it.

[designatedposter]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

The octane rating in app's opinion doesn't really matter once you can track timing. All you need to know is that the gasoline in the tank and the map DME follows work well.

I think Nezil is doing great on E20.

Next step, should you not mind burning another 2k5 (plus labor), my suggestion would be Pure Stage 2, or TTE460 if you want faster spool more than 500+whp. And these turbos will release you from needing for E20 mix and allow for running OTS 93/E30 map on pump gas. Sound desirable.

Because free flow turbine SIGNIFICANTLY improves ignition. It makes a much happier and yet much more powerful engine, without even needing further tuning. I can tell you PWG N55 instantly caps out 16 degree of ignition on stock map once PS2 installed, compared with stock turbo struggling at 8~9 on pump gas. (Forget about a moment please how PWG stock map ridiculously target timing LOL).
No mention there is always someone with BM3 platform to support you wherever your hardware takes you.

From a cost efficiency perspective, what a STG2 turbo nets you on pump gas from FBO+Tune, could be even greater than what FBO+Tune does from stock. And a happier engine, and much more usable power that peak TQ/HP number can't tell.

Think about it.

How do the turbos mentioned help with timing? How does it affect the knock experienced with subpar octane fuel?

I've been having timing issues with the stage 2 tune as well in central CT. I've most recently added some e85 to make e20 to try to confirm an octane issue rather than hardware or ots tune.

I've been daily running the stage 2 91 octane tune with 93 octane fuel and experiencing timing pull. Shell has demonstrated to be the least pull, but still too much in my opinion.

Now onto the e20 log with 93 octane fuel running the ots stage 2 91 octane tune. What do you think?
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b25db99d10b4304d3cee419

M235i n55 ewg 30k miles
New plugs

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by designatedposter

How do the turbos mentioned help with timing? How does it affect the knock experienced with subpar octane fuel?

I've been having timing issues with the stage 2 tune as well in central CT. I've most recently added some e85 to make e20 to try to confirm an octane issue rather than hardware or ots tune.

I've been daily running the stage 2 91 octane tune with 93 octane fuel and experiencing timing pull. Shell has demonstrated to be the least pull, but still too much in my opinion.

Now onto the e20 log with 93 octane fuel running the ots stage 2 91 octane tune. What do you think?
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b25db99d10b4304d3cee419

M235i n55 ewg 30k miles
New plugs

Turbos help with timing due to better flow and lower IAT. If tuned properly it will definitely knock less.

Those timing pulls don't seem too bad.

For comparison here's a log that targets 91 octane levels of boost, with 91-93 levels of timing.

This is just my 2nd revision on the M2 after I finally had time to dial it in..

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b268b6ad10b4304d3cee4ca

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b268dd6d10b4304d3cee4ce


Timing correction on 3rd gear because I shifted hard and aggressive from 2nd chirping the tires and causing traction control to kick in

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b268c71d10b4304d3cee4cd

Originally Posted by akkando

Had a chance to pull that PID to see if 0 is 98ROZ like it says?

Sorry man, been too busy.. barely had time to drive the M2 recently.