[horsepower_and_hounds]

Neil,
SeanWRT has been extremely helpful for me in the past trying to understand what the M2, DME & BM3 map is trying to do. It always seems all over the place. My first logs were awesome running 93 & booster. Everything was great. But i was concerned with using the additive all the time and thought i should not have to on a 93 map. So I cleaned it out with a couple of tanks then did more logs. Well then i got bad gas and my logs starting showing time pull and some knock points and it fucked me all up. Not a lot but 1-2 per log. What did I do, worried about the octane and started using the additive again. Then Sean stepped in and helped me understand that is was prolly shitty or inconsistent fuel. Then it got hot and I hit the dyno. My numbers were crap due to what he pointed out to me...no matter how much octane you have if the IAT's are out of the ballpark then you got shit. I mean stg 2 93 only yielding +25/38 at the wheels...that ain't even worth messing around with a tune but I understand why now. So I wait for an upgraded IC before I move forward. With baseline numbers of 350/394 i should do better than 378/430 on stg 2 93. But the conditions have to be better for the DME to let loose of the control. And the last point is that the glory numbers might be down but it still makes a bit more power under the curve

I to do all the work myself but have very little interest in tuning. That is what i am paying BM3 to handle

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by m2ruder

Neil,
SeanWRT has been extremely helpful for me in the past trying to understand what the M2, DME & BM3 map is trying to do. It always seems all over the place. My first logs were awesome running 93 & booster. Everything was great. But i was concerned with using the additive all the time and thought i should not have to on a 93 map. So I cleaned it out with a couple of tanks then did more logs. Well then i got bad gas and my logs starting showing time pull and some knock points and it fucked me all up. Not a lot but 1-2 per log. What did I do, worried about the octane and started using the additive again. Then Sean stepped in and helped me understand that is was prolly shitty or inconsistent fuel. Then it got hot and I hit the dyno. My numbers were crap due to what he pointed out to me...no matter how much octane you have if the IAT's are out of the ballpark then you got shit. I mean stg 2 93 only yielding +25/38 at the wheels...that ain't even worth messing around with a tune but I understand why now. So I wait for an upgraded IC before I move forward. With baseline numbers of 350/394 i should do better than 378/430 on stg 2 93. But the conditions have to be better for the DME to let loose of the control. And the last point is that the glory numbers might be down but it still makes a bit more power under the curve

I to do all the work myself but have very little interest in tuning. That is what i am paying BM3 to handle

Thanks for this.... It's quite encouraging.

The shitty or inconsistent fuel thing scares me... My understanding, though I might be wrong, is that within a region, e.g. the SF Bay Area for me, all of the base fuel comes from a single refinery. The different brands then put in their additives, which can make a really small difference to octane, or detergents etc, but as long as you get Top Tier fuel, it should be consistently good, regardless of which station you buy it at.

Because of the comments of members on here, I started filling up at Shell and Chevron exclusively, but Sean still believes that my gas may be bad, even with the octane boost of 100 Octane Race Gas.

I guess what I'm saying is... how can we be sure of getting good gas, or to put it another way, how to be sure of not getting bad gas. I'm already filling up at big name stations with lots of traffic and Top Tier fuel; what else can I do?

[SeanWRT]

@m2ruder

I like your case much better than Nezil's. When you get super high IAT and super high octane to handle it, you still can have more power than you did with dyno. These high trap speed 1/4 dragster, IAT must go somewhere 130-150F crossing the line, otherwise huge power potential is left on the table. DME do not restrict power at all with their map.

But the map you're on is not designed for it. Boost was DME capped where it's capped. Using a different tune, DME probably would target 20psi up top (assuming your turbo can flow) in your case to have the load target in check and let octane deal with the rest. Which is DANGEROUS. Or, you'd meet a holding back at a different level, as a integrated BMW strategy.

But god know how PTF find boost ceiling table which in a way works like a piggyback, which I didn't see anyone else in the business has. I refrained from publicly speaking about it half a year ago but these days doesn't matter, anyone can tune a N55 well if he really try.

In other words, with BM3 map, when IAT climb to a certain point, DME restrict power by limiting boost and stop chasing load target. One way of looking at it, it's a fail safe or a guarantee of consistent performance - otherwise you get timing pull all over the place or even knock, turbo choke, high EGT, cylinder overheating etc, DME will back off eventually.

TBH, it works great for OTS. And for the record I don't like it. I fought hard with Dzenan/Halim not to have it LOL And I don't have it

[Nezil]

I've just checked my logs again, and I think I'm beginning to understand what you're saying a bit clearer... There is a pretty clear difference between my logs with the supposed 93.25 blend and the supposed 95.5 blend. The 95.5 still has some timing pull, but it is less than the 93.25, and the cylinders are more aligned. This would indicate that octane is indeed the issue, even though I continue to be surprised that such an expensive blend of gas can perform so bad with the 91 Stage 2 OTS map!

I'm going to do as SeanWRT suggested and fill up with regular pump 91 next, flash back to stock, and then capture some more logs. I'll post these here for feedback as well.

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

But god know how PTF find boost ceiling table which in a way works like a piggyback, which I didn't see anyone else in the business has. I refrained from publicly speaking about it half a year ago but these days doesn't matter, anyone can tune a N55 well if he really try.

In other words, with BM3 map, when IAT climb to a certain point, DME restrict power by limiting boost and stop chasing load target. One way of looking at it, it's a fail safe or a guarantee of consistent performance - otherwise you get timing pull all over the place or even knock, turbo choke, high EGT, cylinder overheating etc, DME will back off eventually.

TBH, it works great for OTS. And for the record I don't like it. I fought hard with Dzenan/Halim not to have it LOL And I don't have it

My understanding of the way piggyback tunes work is that they fool the DME into thinking it has less boost than it really does, and then let the DME work out how to control things with the higher boost pressure by pulling timing and / or adding fuel.

Are you saying that a more conventional map would not have a boost ceiling like the BM3 OTS ones do, and would rely on other factors to control the engine and therefore allow for greater boost if possible. And your custom map behaves in that way as well?

I guess having the DME pull boost if the IAT rises too high could be a good idea for OTS because you can't anticipate which FMIC and other bolt ons a customer is going to use.

[SeanWRT]

@Nezil It's a nature ignition differs cylinder by cylinder. Exhaust gas goes thru different bank of manifold and thus different temperature and back pressure. Again super clean timing across cylinders means headroom.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by Nezil

Since the first log is the best, another possibility that might come to mind is that the IATs might be lower and gradually increasing.

Do you plan on upgrading your intercooler?

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

@m2ruder

But the map you're on is not designed for it. Boost was DME capped where it's capped. Using a different tune, DME probably would target 20psi up top (assuming your turbo can flow) in your case to have the load target in check and let octane deal with the rest. Which is DANGEROUS. Or, you'd meet a holding back at a different level, as a integrated BMW strategy.

But god know how PTF find boost ceiling table which in a way works like a piggyback, which I didn't see anyone else in the business has. I refrained from publicly speaking about it half a year ago but these days doesn't matter, anyone can tune a N55 well if he really try.

In other words, with BM3 map, when IAT climb to a certain point, DME restrict power by limiting boost and stop chasing load target. One way of looking at it, it's a fail safe or a guarantee of consistent performance - otherwise you get timing pull all over the place or even knock, turbo choke, high EGT, cylinder overheating etc, DME will back off eventually.

TBH, it works great for OTS. And for the record I don't like it. I fought hard with Dzenan/Halim not to have it LOL And I don't have it

Sean, what are you referring to regarding boost ceiling? Can you elaborate? While I agree PTF's strategy on tuning OTS maps for PWG/EWG wouldn't be my first go to. it is consistent enough for 90% of the cars out there, unfortunately due to variance the 10% may get a hit or miss map.

The DME has quite a few calibration tables exposed in BM3, and I'm sure they are using a few hidden tables that aren't exposed to tune there OTS. Since it seems like you mentioned, they have a hard cap on load ceiling and boost after a certain point is set to a hard target instead of targeting load and compensation for IAT,Baro, etc.

Originally Posted by Nezil

You, cookiesowns, and FSociety all seem to have gained knowledge over time, and I hoped there would be a way for me to do the same. In the interests of sharing with the community, I made a thread on understanding data logs. This was of course for my benefit, but I hoped that forum members with more knowledge than me would help to flesh this out for the benefit of everyone.


That's a great idea, thank you. I have captured some rough logs in the past on the stock tune, and do know that the stock map results in quite a lot of timing pull and is also littered with 'knock detected' points in normal use.

As you know, this scared me in the past, and adding in 100 Octane Race Gas got rid of the 'knock detected' points entirely. It didn't get rid of the timing pull though.

I guess the main thing I was wanting to know, is if my car has anything fundamentally wrong with it. If the stock map results in data logs that are full of knock events and timing pull, is that because my engine has a problem, or is that just normal for California gas?

I actually did this already, though not in as direct a way as you've said. I made a map update request in BM3 about a week ago, but got no response.

proTUNING Freaks did say that they were thinking of making some OTS maps for ACN 91 Octane fuel. I'd be happy to help test that, and even do some dyno runs if that's needed, but they've not responded at this point.


Thanks very much for this description, but it does raise another question:

If the DME is capable of doing all of these corrections to prevent knock, why doesn't a map simply target the highest timing & boost, and just have the DME perform the corrections. Would I be correct in understanding it like this:

The DME is capable of limiting boost and timing to protect the engine from knock, but relying solely on the DME to do this is not going to be optimal, and doesn't give you much of a fail safe.

The most optimal situation, would be to target boost and timing to just over the point where timing will be pulled by the DME. The DME is then only correctly slightly, rather than a lot.

As you've said, it would be possible to target boost and timing to the point where timing never gets pulled, but this would be a conservative map that doesn't make optimal power.

That's helpful to know, I appreciate that.

Ok, so to add on top of what SeanWRT has mentioned. The MEVD DME on these BMW's have 2 knock sensors. On near cyl3, and one near cyl5. I highly suggest logging the voltages on these knock sensors if you are trying to chase down "ghost knock".

The DME also has very smart knock logic to where it will slowly correct timing first to prevent pre-det/knock. It is also sophisticated enough to check for knock on every spark cycle ( logging tools aren't fast enough for this yet ) and will determine frequency and severity of the knock.

There are many calibration tables to determine how much it pulls timing, as well as load ( lets call load the amount of torque/airflow the engine is producing for now ).

There is absolutely no point in tuning a DME leaving timing on the table, the DME can predict detonation fairly accurately and will pull timing before it even gets bad. Try lugging the engine in 4th/5th going uphill on the stock map, you'll get tons of timing corrections.

Now if you were seeing corrections quite severly on all cylinders that point to a fuel or hardware issue.

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by akkando

Do you plan on upgrading your intercooler?

Absolutely; it was always planned. I am currently awaiting a CSF Intercooler which has been shipped. Initially Fedex predicted its arrival on Saturday, now they're saying Wednesday next week, presumably because of the holiday weekend.

Latest update still predicts Wednesday, but it got from NE to western WY today. Looking at the map, there is still a change, albeit a low one, that it could arrive Saturday.

[Nezil]

So following up on SeanWRT's suggestion, I let the tank go pretty low, then filled up with straight CA 91 Pump Gas today. For the record it was Chevron. At the same time, I flashed the stock map to the car, and got 5 good pulls logged. Obviously the first couple are during DME adaptation, but I'm posting them here anyway for reference.

The gas station I went to also sells E85, so I filled a VP Racing can with 5.66 gallons of that while I was there. This is currently stored in a dark corner of my garage, but it's available to test with if it looks like a good idea. I love how cheap E85 is, especially compared to Race Gas!

Finally, it looks like my CSF FMIC isn't going to arrive tomorrow, and I'll have to wait until Wednesday next week to install that.

• Run 1: http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b083faad10b43530d4a913e
• Run 2: http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b0875ecd10b432f2edcc71e
• Run 3: http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b087632d10b432f2edcc71f
• Run 4: http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b087652d10b432f2edcc720
• Run 5: http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b0876f2d10b432f2edcc721

And the charts:

[Nezil]

There is clearly a very different tuning strategy at play with the stock map. The throttle angle is not at 100% for the first half of the run, which is quite different from the BM3 OTS maps.

Timing, as SeanWRT expected, isn't cleanly aligned on all the runs, and based on his and cookiesowns's feedback about timing, I'm less concerned about it than I was in the past, and I think I can safely assume there is nothing fundamentally wrong with my car.

Where do I go from here though...

• Am I safe to use the 91 AKI BM3 Stage 2 OTS map with the pump gas I have available locally?
• Should I try the E30 map with some of the E85 I picked up today?
• Should I reach out to proTUNING Freaks to request the ACN 91 OTS maps that they talked about producing in the past?
• Should I start the process of getting a custom map for my fuel and bolt ons, and which tuner should I work with?

[Oxymoron]

I had a log today where the timing looked crazy like yours. I had logged it using my phone. I then did a run right after using the laptop to log and timing was perfectly fine.

Could just be something simple like that maybe

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by Nezil

There is clearly a very different tuning strategy at play with the stock map. The throttle angle is not at 100% for the first half of the run, which is quite different from the BM3 OTS maps.

Timing, as SeanWRT expected, isn't cleanly aligned on all the runs, and based on his and cookiesowns's feedback about timing, I'm less concerned about it than I was in the past, and I think I can safely assume there is nothing fundamentally wrong with my car.

Where do I go from here though...

• Am I safe to use the 91 AKI BM3 Stage 2 OTS map with the pump gas I have available locally?
• Should I try the E30 map with some of the E85 I picked up today?
• Should I reach out to proTUNING Freaks to request the ACN 91 OTS maps that they talked about producing in the past?
• Should I start the process of getting a custom map for my fuel and bolt ons, and which tuner should I work with?

Do you have a shell station with VPower+ Nitro? My 91 BM3 stage 2 maps run VERY clean on shell 91 vpower+ Nitro. ( 10% ethanol ) I ALWAYS use the same station.

All my BMW's seem to prefer shell over chevron, very possible it's placebo, but my logs say otherwise on my other cars.

I would avoid the E30 map for now. You want a good gasoline base for ethanol maps. Do not run the E30 map before FMIC.

again send me a PM

[SeanWRT]

Nezil m2ruder

Guys, I flashed STG2 93OCT OTS just for datalogging purpose. If you want to compare, below is the link.

Ambient temp is 80F. Gas is 98RON. And I have a STG1 turbo to make things easier for DME.

I did 5 back to back 3rd gear pulls, all of them are identical, except for IAT maxed at 95F and EGT maxed at a stable 1450F.

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b0aa958d10b432f2edccba8

I also drove back home on OTS. Been with BM3 since its very first M2 OTS, I'm deeply impressed. In my opinion, there is no one else in the business offering a OTS that comes close, in terms of outright power, smoothness and drivability.

All I can say to new users is - you have no idea how much a blessing it is to have a tune of this level for just 595USD that is available 24/7 and requires nothing more than a laptop at home.

Spectacular job Halim@HCP

[Nezil]

I also drove back home on OTS. Been with BM3 since its very first M2 OTS, I'm deeply impressed. In my opinion, there is no one else in the business offering a OTS that comes close, in terms of outright power, smoothness and drivability.

All I can say to new users is - you have no idea how much a blessing it is to have a tune of this level for just 595USD that is available 24/7 and requires nothing more than a laptop at home.

Spectacular job Halim@HCP

I'm sure you're correct, assuming we're not octane limited. I ran out of fuel before I could try the 93 Octane Stage 2 OTS map with my 95.5 AKI race fuel blend, and switched to a full tank of pump 91 gas to pull logs on the stock map.

I'm still not sure where to go from here if the fuel here is so bad that I have to either use octane booster or race gas even to get the 91 Octane maps to work consistently.

Octane booster is actually the cheapest and most convenient solution, and there are users in California who have been using it in every tank for many thousands of miles.... it's tempting, but I'd still rather not do that because of the unknown long term issues.

E30 is a potential option, and I believe m2ruder is trying that currently (though he's not in CA). I'm interested to see his results.

As proTUNING Freaks suggested, maybe it's a good idea to have a set of OTS maps for poor ACN (Arizona / California / Nevada) fuel...

Lastly, a custom map is of course an option, and I'd be interested in exploring this option. Should I contact Halim@HCP for this directly?

[SeanWRT]

@Nezil Custom tuning to your octane is a great option. Though I don't think Halim has time for custom tuning these days. I'd recommend Gary Jordan. He is also Dzenan's recommendation.

Keep in mind put on all hardware mods before reaching out to tuner.

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Nezil m2ruder

Guys, I flashed STG2 93OCT OTS just for datalogging purpose. If you want to compare, below is the link.

Ambient temp is 80F. Gas is 98RON. And I have a STG1 turbo to make things easier for DME.

I did 5 back to back 3rd gear pulls, all of them are identical, except for IAT maxed at 95F and EGT maxed at a stable 1450F.

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b0aa958d10b432f2edccba8

This log is really really helpful SeanWRT! I know you'd said that good timing logs aren't a goal, but how they should vary, and by how much, and where in the pull was all information that was missing from that statement.

Looking at, and comparing, three different logs, I think it's possible to see something of a pattern.

In my first logs with either the 93 or 91 Octane OTS maps with my 93.25 AKI 3:1 Pump to Race Gas blend, I was getting timing pull on all cylinders, occasional knock detected events, and the logs just look a bit of a mess; here's a good example:

When I increased the octane by adding more race gas, to what I calculate to be 95.5 AKI, the logs improved consistently; another example:

And finally, SeanWRT's log, which although is the Stage 2 rather than Stage 1 map, shows very similar timing adjustments to my 95.5 AKI log.

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

@Nezil Custom tuning to your octane is a great option. Though I don't think Halim has time for custom tuning these days. I'd recommend Gary Jordan. He is also Dzenan's recommendation.

Keep in mind put on all hardware mods before reaching out to tuner.

Thanks for the recommendation... My CSF FMIC should be here on Wednesday, and the only other thing I had planned (for the mid term) was maybe a Pure Inlet pipe, or the upcoming new FTP Inlet pipe.

[SeanWRT]

Originally Posted by Nezil

This log is really really helpful SeanWRT! I know you'd said that good timing logs aren't a goal, but how they should vary, and by how much, and where in the pull was all information that was missing from that statement.

Looking at, and comparing, three different logs, I think it's possible to see something of a pattern.

In my first logs with either the 93 or 91 Octane OTS maps with my 93.25 AKI 3:1 Pump to Race Gas blend, I was getting timing pull on all cylinders, occasional knock detected events, and the logs just look a bit of a mess; here's a good example:

[IMG]https://image.ibb.co/gK7gO8/image.png[/IMG]

When I increased the octane by adding more race gas, to what I calculate to be 95.5 AKI, the logs improved consistently; another example:

[IMG]https://image.ibb.co/fS0hD8/image.png[/IMG]

And finally, SeanWRT's log, which although is the Stage 2 rather than Stage 1 map, shows very similar timing adjustments to my 95.5 AKI log.

[img]https://image.ibb.co/cQnWhd/Screen_S...1_25_00_PM.png[/img]

Nezil, to be accurate, in term of timing, my log is much better than your AKI95. Why 'by much'? When you read many enough log you'd know DME is getting much more sensitive at top end. A clean 6k+ is way more difficult to obtain than a clean low and middle range.

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Nezil, to be accurate, in term of timing, my log is much better than your AKI95. Why 'by much'? When you read many enough log you'd know DME is getting much more sensitive at top end. A clean 6k+ is way more difficult to obtain than a clean low and middle range.

Thanks for the feedback. Do you still think my problems are octane related though? 95.5 AKI on a map designed for 91 AKI?

BTW, I've sent a PM off to Cary to start the discussion.

[Nezil]

I've got some updates...

Halim got back to me on my original map issue request through BM3, and we started a discussion there. Looking at my logs, he feels that the 95.5 AKI blend that I made was giving acceptable logs, but the 93.25 AKI blend was not really. His estimation was that the ACN 91 pump gas I have access to here, is more equivalent to 88 AKI!!!

If that's true, the maths does sort of work out. My initial 3:1 race gas blend works out to 93.25 if the pump gas is 91 as claimed, and works out to 91 if the pump gas is 88. My 95.5 race gas blend would actually be 94 if the original pump gas was performing like 88.

Halim asked me to take some logs of the Stage 2 91 Octane OTS map with my ACN 91 pump gas, and I've done that... They're very different!

It is perhaps unfair to compare these logs to the 95.5 AKI logs I took last week, because today was very hot (31.5C / 89F), and my CSF FMIC still isn't here. IATs started in the high 90s and went up to 150 after my 6 pulls. CSF FMIC is due here Wednesday by the way, and will be installed that evening if I have anything to do with it!

In any case, I'm posting the logs and charts here for reference as this plays out:

• Run 1: http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b0c5362d10b4348d19139cd
• Run 2: http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b0c5399d10b4348d19139cf
• Run 3: http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b0c53d0d10b4348d19139d0
• Run 4: http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b0c5426d10b4348d19139d3
• Run 5: http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b0c54bbd10b4348d19139d9
• Run 6: http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b0c5501d10b4348d19139dd

And the charts:

[Nezil]

As a bit of an update, I did get this message from Halim at ProTuning Freaks yesterday:

Hey Neil, the octane is really the worst I have ever seen in an M2. Ever.

This was in response to taking a look at my Stage 2 OTS 91 Octane map logs (the same ones posted above...

Since then, I've now installed my CSF FMIC. The IATs are WAY WAY down, I can't believe how much more effective it is over stock. With stock, the IAT never went below ~85F, with the CSF, it went down to 60F last night when I was testing. I do realise that the ambient has to be low to get a 60F temp, but I've never see IATs that low since logging with stock, regardless of ambient temps.

I captured new logs of the stock map and the Stage 1 91 Octane OTS map with the FMIC installed last night; will post them up when I get a chance.