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BMW M2 Forum > BMW M2 Competition Model > BMW M2 Competition faster than Cayman S, M3 ZCP, Type R, C63S on Magny-Cours GP Track

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      01-17-2019, 09:32 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
The fact is, the times are not statistically significant. It wouldn't matter if the M3 came out ahead, at .02 seconds, it is not statistically significant period - and yes, just like a time on the ring that is 1 second different - not statistically significant - although interestingly enough a 1 second difference on a 7 minute 30 second run on the ring is 8 times greater of a difference than a .02 second difference on a 2 minute run.

It seems you think I'm having a hard time with this because the M3 was .02 seconds behind - nothing could be further from the truth. As a former M2 owner, I know what a great car it is - as I pointed out earlier in the thread, a much shorter wheelbase coupled with a smaller gas tank can do wonders on a twisty course. Trust me, I'm not defending anything here - just pointing out, the numbers might as well all be equal. Would it help you understand this if I didn't own a M3?
No one has said it is statistically significant. Literally no one.
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      01-17-2019, 06:18 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
It's obvious you're defending your M3C my friend, no worries. I understand, you don't want a cheaper, heavier(...) equipped with an OPF and downgraded S55(way less HP than M3C) and smaller tyresizes equipped M2C than M3C to win (even by this small margin) driven by the same driver.
Robin --
I'm really not sure where you are getting your info from. If you can point to something I said that was incorrect in this thead or in defense of the M3 being "faster" please do. Otherwise, you and Bradyland are just continuing to amuse the others in the thread (who are apparently MUCH smarter than me because they chose wisely not to engage in this silly debate). Do note, that my point, from the beginning is that the M2C, 718 S, the M3 with Comp Pack, and the Audi RS mk2 are all the same per this test from a statistical standpoint. For them to break down times in 100th of a second on a 2 minute lap done on different days of the year, does not make one of them faster than the other.

PS - there is no such thing as a M3C, there is a M3CS however.
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      01-17-2019, 06:26 PM   #91
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Ok, great everyone agrees they are all fast cars with basically the same laptime in this test.
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      01-17-2019, 07:16 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
Robin --
I'm really not sure where you are getting your info from. If you can point to something I said that was incorrect in this thead or in defense of the M3 being "faster" please do. Otherwise, you and Bradyland are just continuing to amuse the others in the thread (who are apparently MUCH smarter than me because they chose wisely not to engage in this silly debate). Do note, that my point, from the beginning is that the M2C, 718 S, the M3 with Comp Pack, and the Audi RS mk2 are all the same per this test from a statistical standpoint. For them to break down times in 100th of a second on a 2 minute lap done on different days of the year, does not make one of them faster than the other.

PS - there is no such thing as a M3C, there is a M3CS however.
Are you for real? Everybody knows M3C or M4C refers to M3/M4 with Competition Package. Instead of typing the whole damn thing, many people just prefer to call it M3C. Even you are lazy enough to call it "Comp Pack" instead of "Competition Package". However, I'll play along and be a smart-ass like yourself. There is no such thing as an M2C, there is M2 Competition however.
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      01-17-2019, 08:03 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
Are you for real? Everybody knows M3C or M4C refers to M3/M4 with Competition Package. Instead of typing the whole damn thing, many people just prefer to call it M3C. Even you are lazy enough to call it "Comp Pack" instead of "Competition Package". However, I'll play along and be a smart-ass like yourself. There is no such thing as an M2C, there is M2 Competition however.
If we really want to get picky, Comp Pack is not the official abbreviation of the option. It should really be referred to as just ZCP .

The internet - the only place where you can observe people who actually agree spending hours arguing over minutiae.
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      01-17-2019, 08:20 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
Are you for real? Everybody knows M3C or M4C refers to M3/M4 with Competition Package. Instead of typing the whole damn thing, many people just prefer to call it M3C. Even you are lazy enough to call it "Comp Pack" instead of "Competition Package". However, I'll play along and be a smart-ass like yourself. There is no such thing as an M2C, there is M2 Competition however.
If we really want to get picky, Comp Pack is not the official abbreviation of the option. It should really be referred to as just ZCP .

The internet - the only place where you can observe people who actually agree spending hours arguing over minutiae.
ZCP is just an abbreviation as well and stands for "Zee Competition Pack". In the order guide, it's mentioned as "ZCP - Competition Package"
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      01-17-2019, 09:36 PM   #95
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Ok now that everyone agrees that the M2C smoked the competition we can move on to detailing our cars interior!

Thanks boys
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      01-18-2019, 01:06 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by spetsnazos View Post
Ok now that everyone agrees that the M2C smoked the competition we can move on to detailing our cars interior!

Thanks boys
Please change the topictitle to:

BMW M2 Competition not statistically significantly faster than Cayman S, M3 COMPETITION*, Type R, C63S on Magny-Cours GP Track.

because then I just admit 1:59,78 is slower than 1:59,80 and swallow my pride.


I stand corrected and lesson learned.


*There is no M3 ZCP available in EU, the car in the video is an M3 Competition.


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      01-18-2019, 01:16 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
Please change the topictitle to:

BMW M2 Competition not statistically significantly faster than Cayman S, M3 COMPETITION*, Type R, C63S on Magny-Cours GP Track.

because then I just admit 1:59,78 is slower than 1:59,80 and swallow my pride.


I stand corrected and lesson learned.


*There is no M3 ZCP available in EU, the car in the video is an M3 Competition.


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Can I just change it to M3CS? Or will the serious business haters take another swing?

I also don't think some people here appreciate that professional drivers are Uber consistent.
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      01-18-2019, 01:24 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by spetsnazos View Post
Can I just change it to M3CS? Or will the serious business haters take another swing?

I also don't think some people here appreciate that professional drivers are Uber consistent.
Whatever. Just admit you were wrong to begin with. Don't be childish. I'm tired of you looking for lame excuses in this thread over and over again!!!!11!
Blaming others for being wrong and amusing like they are a bunch of clowns. Take a look at yourself i'd suggest!!!


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      01-18-2019, 01:28 AM   #99
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Professional drivers you say? Where? In that video in the topictitle?

Gotta be kidding me

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      01-18-2019, 11:33 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
Professional drivers you say? Where? In that video in the topictitle?

Gotta be kidding me

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Careful Robin, someone's gonna kick you in the 'topticles'...
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      01-19-2019, 02:03 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
Robin --
I'm really not sure where you are getting your info from. If you can point to something I said that was incorrect in this thead or in defense of the M3 being "faster" please do. Otherwise, you and Bradyland are just continuing to amuse the others in the thread (who are apparently MUCH smarter than me because they chose wisely not to engage in this silly debate). Do note, that my point, from the beginning is that the M2C, 718 S, the M3 with Comp Pack, and the Audi RS mk2 are all the same per this test from a statistical standpoint. For them to break down times in 100th of a second on a 2 minute lap done on different days of the year, does not make one of them faster than the other.

PS - there is no such thing as a M3C, there is a M3CS however.
Are you for real? Everybody knows M3C or M4C refers to M3/M4 with Competition Package. Instead of typing the whole damn thing, many people just prefer to call it M3C. Even you are lazy enough to call it "Comp Pack" instead of "Competition Package". However, I'll play along and be a smart-ass like yourself. There is no such thing as an M2C, there is M2 Competition however.
Everyone except that darn google.
Try googling bmw m3c
Then try googling bmw m2c

Enjoy!
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      01-19-2019, 03:17 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
Everyone except that darn google.
Try googling bmw m3c
Then try googling bmw m2c

Enjoy!
Lol the Tesla trolls are trying to turn M3 into a term for the Model 3 . Just wait till google results in Tesla at the tip for M3
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      01-21-2019, 01:06 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
Not enough evidence to suggest the times are actually different? WTF does that even mean?



So now I need an undergrad in engineering & statistics to understand an argument you haven't even made? Can I suggest maybe an undergrad course or two in English?

Here's a sentence with some big words in it for you. Try it on for size and let me know if this gets me into the discussion:

It is incumbent upon the author to present their argument in a fashion which can be most easily comprehended by the intended audience.

For anyone not interested in an intellectual circle jerk:

If you're going to make an argument, at least try to make sense. Especially when talking to us plebes.
LOL, in the time it took you to write that post, you could have googled a stats book and found the answer.

Just because you don't understand or want to believe there is a counter argument, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

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Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
I never said it was statistically significant. I said the results are the results and that they're only a single data point. That's a pretty reasonable and measured way to approach these results, if you ask me.

Besides, who here has computed the p-value for test data they don't even have access to. We don't even know how many laps they turned.
When you say things like statistical significance and p-value in that context, it's very clear that you don't understand those concepts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post

On this circuit, on this day, the M2C was very close in performance to cars like the M3C, 718 S, and TT RS. That is as much as anyone can say, ... the M2C might be close in performance to their M3C.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
Please point out the part that is incorrect:

BMW M2 Competition faster than Cayman S, M3 ZCP, Type R, C63S on Magny-Cours GP Track
Congrats, you've contradicted yourself.

A more accurate title would carry the sentiment that the M2C, Cayman S, M3 ZCP are similarly fast. Not that any one of them is faster than the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
No one has said it is statistically significant. Literally no one.
Your comments and suggestion that the title "...M2C faster than Cayman S..." is correct implies that you believe the difference in time is statistically significant.

The more appropriate interpretation for the m2c and m3 zcp from the data given suggests that there is not enough evidence to say one is faster than the other. To determine which is faster, more experiments would have to be run.

On a lighter note, both are incredibly similar vehicles - is it really a surprise that they perform... similarly?
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      01-21-2019, 10:22 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by jlhymb View Post
LOL, in the time it took you to write that post, you could have googled a stats book and found the answer.

Just because you don't understand or want to believe there is a counter argument, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

When you say things like statistical significance and p-value in that context, it's very clear that you don't understand those concepts.
You can keep wanking yourself off over your supposed intellectual superiority all day long, but it doesn't change the outcome of this test. I never said it was statistically significant, I only said that you've done a shit job of making an argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlhymb View Post
Congrats, you've contradicted yourself.

A more accurate title would carry the sentiment that the M2C, Cayman S, M3 ZCP are similarly fast. Not that any one of them is faster than the others.
These two things can be simultaneously true:

1) The M2C was faster than the M3C around Magny-Cours.
2) All we can take from that is that the M2C and M3C are close in performance.

One is a fact, and the other is an evaluation of that fact, arrived at because the margin of victory is so close. This is not the same as statistical significance, btw. I'd explain it to you, but you can just Google it. Amirite?

My opinion is that talking about statistical significance in a context where you have only one sample again, we don't know how many times they lapped the circuit is a silly discussion to even have. Should I post a histogram of the lap time distribution?



Let me put this another way. Take this histogram to whatever professor taught you statistics and ask them how you should assess the statistical significance of this data. Be sure to record their reaction, because I love watching people laugh.

And once more for clarity. I never said it was statistically significant, and I never drew any conclusion that is any different from yours. You're the one that started spouting about statistical significance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlhymb View Post
Your comments and suggestion that the title "...M2C faster than Cayman S..." is correct implies that you believe the difference in time is statistically significant.
No, it doesn't. It just means that the sky is blue, water is wet, and the M2C turned a faster lap time than the M3C around Magny-Cours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlhymb View Post
The more appropriate interpretation for the m2c and m3 zcp from the data given suggests that there is not enough evidence to say one is faster than the other. To determine which is faster, more experiments would have to be run.
Totally agree. Drawing conclusions does not obviate the facts though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlhymb View Post
On a lighter note, both are incredibly similar vehicles - is it really a surprise that they perform... similarly?
Not at all.
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      01-21-2019, 08:10 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
...
I applaud your effort. I've tried to help but your unwilling and rude. Again, just because you don't understand a concept doesn't mean that concept is wrong or doesn't exist - it means that you don't understand the concept. It is not on me to attempt to teach you or explain it to you - that's your job. The information needed to understand the concepts we are discussing are free, there is no supposed intellectual superiority - just open a book or search google.

I could pick apart the lack of knowledge, circular reasoning, and general imprecision in your posts, but highlighting the ignorance in your ramblings is besides the point. An appropriate conclusion to the timing information provided in the OP is that there is not enough evidence to suggest that the M2C is any faster than M3 zcp.
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      01-21-2019, 08:23 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
My opinion is that talking about statistical significance in a context where you have only one sample — again, we don't know how many times they lapped the circuit — is a silly discussion to even have. Should I post a histogram of the lap time distribution?



Let me put this another way. Take this histogram to whatever professor taught you statistics and ask them how you should assess the statistical significance of this data. Be sure to record their reaction, because I love watching people laugh.
Ok fine i'll bite - I could show them your graph, but they would be laughing at you for assuming that's what the sampling distribution of the data looks like.
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      01-21-2019, 09:32 PM   #107
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I'm putting you all on timeout. Play nice!!
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      01-22-2019, 08:39 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by jlhymb View Post
I applaud your effort. I've tried to help but your unwilling and rude. Again, just because you don't understand a concept doesn't mean that concept is wrong or doesn't exist - it means that you don't understand the concept. It is not on me to attempt to teach you or explain it to you - that's your job. The information needed to understand the concepts we are discussing are free, there is no supposed intellectual superiority - just open a book or search google.

I could pick apart the lack of knowledge, circular reasoning, and general imprecision in your posts, but highlighting the ignorance in your ramblings is besides the point. An appropriate conclusion to the timing information provided in the OP is that there is not enough evidence to suggest that the M2C is any faster than M3 zcp.
Translation: I can't come up with a decent rebuttal, so I'm going to continue to assert vague hints of knowledge that I cannot demonstrate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlhymb View Post
Ok fine i'll bite - I could show them your graph, but they would be laughing at you for assuming that's what the sampling distribution of the data looks like.
Please post any information you have about additional data points. I expect we'll see that at about the same time you post an understandable/correct explanation of statistical significance.
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      01-22-2019, 09:21 AM   #109
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Serious post:

FWIW, The Grand Tour's laptime standings from last season or that one before(?)

McLaren Senna did it in S3 E1 in 1:12.9.(deep bow)




Or can we just dismiss this type of laptime leaderboards and which one is correct if any?

Why do carmags/journos etc do lap their cars on different tracks, just for nothing? Is Hockenheim Short/GP more important than Magny-Cours and why?

The Mother of all Tracks(Nordschleife) is pretty important(doh), but every car is also driven in different circumstances/temperatures and ambient temperatures and not on the same day...

When does a laptime count? When one or two rivals are not within, let's say 1 second of the car currently driven? That would be strange....
And who decides if/when a laptime counts/is valid vs the rest?
-Some Bimmerpost forummembers?
-The carjournos/ the guys who drove the car and made it possible?
-???


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      01-22-2019, 09:34 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
Translation: I can't come up with a decent rebuttal, so I'm going to continue to assert vague hints of knowledge that I cannot demonstrate.



Please post any information you have about additional data points. I expect we'll see that at about the same time you post an understandable/correct explanation of statistical significance.
You're lost in your own sauce buddy ... no one can help you

Here's the executive summary of our conversation:
Me: google hypothesis testing
You:

Last edited by jlhymb; 01-22-2019 at 11:02 AM.. Reason: birdbox
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