[F87EVO]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

There's always going to be the group willing to pay for the top tech, and then the group that's going to wait until it trickles down to other models or becomes available in the aftermarket. BMW was clear that the tweaks to the front splitter and rear lip improved downforce. I have no reason to doubt. Parts are now available to order and can be added to the C. It should add the same benefit as what the CS experiences. Someone had to pay for the development. No different than those that drive an S class or E class. The tech trickles down. Granted, the sclass is usually out for a few years before trickling down to E class. Whereas the CS isn't even out yet lol.

I'm generally in the trickle down camp, but CS is a package that I want.

Yes A C can be modded. Recent article showed what $20k can do for a C and it was really impressive. $75k for a modded C that outperforms $85k CS. Value 5yrs down the road for both will be interesting.

Any car with 20k of upgrades will be faster than the better version . Some people just see stock cars without any mods. Wouldnt ask for more power in the M2 , i think 444hp would be more than enought for a stock car with that size and weight! I also wouldnt ask for a CSL variant ; because watching back the E46 CS and E46 CSL i can find a huge difference , even in looks .But on the M2CS the carbon hood with the air vent is already an aggresive addition which i think it could be used on the M2CSL instead , but we got it in the CS . And thats a pretty cool upgrade. Also , if you compare it with some other cars like the Merc A45S which comes with a 4 pot 2.0L engine , its not that bad when it comes to weight - 1643kg for an A Class ? 1525kg for a 3.0L CS (with ceramics) . Not that bad for my opinion . The E46 CSL was 1385kg but it was before 15 years ! Technology and safety reasons add some weight on the cars! E46 CSL was 360hp thought . Also power to weight ratio is better on the M2 CS than on the E46 CSL .

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Poochie

The CS is touted as the top of the line 2-series PERFORMANCE so, yes, objective views are performance-based.

Aesthetics are not the point of the M2CS and, of course, are completely subjective. Still, the entire point of carbon fiber bits is supposed to be 'lighter,' although it has clearly become a topic of aesthetics. . . and all the carbon fiber lipstick on the CS has lended itself to zero weight reduction. Wardrobe changes lend themselves to zero performance gain when it comes to the M2CS. Speaking of which, back to performance . . .

One important thing I think you are overlooking with the 2-series lineage is that the M2C took on ///M car legend status because of primarily one thing: insertion of the S55 engine. Neither BMW or the consumer ever saw it coming.

///AVM

It depends on what you put value on.

For instance, you can install a carbon fiber roof on a Competition but the hack job that would be required, makes me cringe, which would not bode well with my OCD because humans are inherently flawed..

Whereas, a CS comes with a carbon fiber roof, from the factory, that hypothetically one can jump on top of and do the Macarena, yet not leave a scratch.

Point being, If you're the anal-retentive type and would get chills of the thought of some hourly worker, cutting up your car, to add a roof and would probably have to end up spending on therapy anyways, as a result, 25k might be worth it, to some..

Same as the Adaptive Suspension, I see the ordeal some folks that have it stock, has to go through to add aftermarket HAS dampers because the the electronic suspension was so intergraded, with the vehicle's program and worked in tandem with a slew of alphabet vehicle logic; from DSC, VSS, EPS, ABS, ect.

Adding Adaptive Dampers is virtually impossible to retrofit, outside of the factory because the set software is different to that of static dampers.

Once again, maybe some don't see the benefits to the CS add-on and can be better suited for a Competition, heck, maybe even a fully-loaded 230i might fit the bill but if the CS is something you wouldn't mind spending your pennies on, that's up to the individual and a sweet buy, IMHO.

[JustChris]

Let's be honest. Marginal gains cost, but this is quite an extreme example due to the exclusivity.

What is it, 10s faster around the Nring than the M2C? What that, approx 10/450 seconds Nring time?

2.2% time performance enhancement
50% price

Those that can afford it will, just because.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by JustChris

Let's be honest. Marginal gains cost, but this is quite an extreme example due to the exclusivity.
What is it, 10s faster around the Nring than the M2C? What that, approx 10/450 seconds Nring time?
2.2% time performance enhancement
50% price
Those that can afford it will, just because.

Of course, the M2 CS and M2C are a total package, more than the sum of their parts. Figures are figures and emotions are emotions. Figures can evoke emotions and vice versa: for example what does it take for each of us in work efforts to collect the money for a car. For some, money is no issue, for others, it is an issue.

On the M2 CS release day (Nov 6), a Belgian YouTuber posted an M2 CS walkaround video (see here); he mentioned (02:35-02:40) that the M2 CS laps the Nürburgring "8 seconds faster than the M2 Competition".

M2 Competition lap time:

• reference is usually made to the 07:52.36 lap time by Sport Auto (Horst von Saurma) in October 2018 (M-DCT M2 Competition - no manual) (see list here + full lap video here);
• Sport Auto pinned the following comment under its video: "Hi guys, just one more information: The official lap time of BMW M testdriver Jörg Weidinger in the M2 Competition was 7.50 min".

Hence my M2 CS guestimate of ± 7:43.

[243Racing]

I just want some of the parts to be available

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Of course, the M2 CS and M2C are a total package, more than the sum of their parts. Figures are figures and emotions are emotions. Figures can evoke emotions and vice versa: for example what does it take for each of us in work efforts to collect the money for a car. For some, money is no issue, for others, it is an issue.

On the M2 CS release day (Nov 6), a Belgian YouTuber posted an M2 CS walkaround video (see here); he mentioned (02:35-02:40) that the M2 CS laps the Nürburgring "8 seconds faster than the M2 Competition".

M2 Competition lap time:

• reference is usually made to the 07:52.36 lap time by Sport Auto (Horst von Saurma) in October 2018 (M-DCT M2 Competition - no manual) (see list here + full lap video here);
• Sport Auto pinned the following comment under its video: "Hi guys, just one more information: The official lap time of BMW M testdriver Jörg Weidinger in the M2 Competition was 7.50 min".

Hence my M2 CS guestimate of ± 7:43.

I'm at 7:41.5. History $$$ would suggest my optimism is flawed

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by BeastieBombRacing

I just want some of the parts to be available

Front lip, rear spoiler, rear diffuser, and wheels already are available. Or at least the part numbers are available.

[JCZ5]

My original plan of getting the M2CS was to use it as a daily driver. But man, it has now dawned on me that would have been a terrible decision. If I were to own one, it would be a garage queen for sure! Honestly, the exclusivity is the biggest factor going for it. I don't really track my cars and I do like the carbon bits, which can be added to a regular M2C.

Just can't justify driving a M2CS as a daily, when the M2C does the same in this specific use case. I've been bingeing(sp?) with watching e30 evos and videos from EAG. None of these e30s have excess miles and boy did they appreciate like crazy.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by JCZ5

My original plan of getting the M2CS was to use it as a daily driver. But man, it has now dawned on me that would have been a terrible decision. If I were to own one, it would be a garage queen for sure! Honestly, the exclusivity is the biggest factor going for it. I don't really track my cars and I do like the carbon bits, which can be added to a regular M2C.

Just can't justify driving a M2CS as a daily, when the M2C does the same in this specific use case. I've been bingeing(sp?) with watching e30 evos and videos from EAG. None of these e30s have excess miles and boy did they appreciate like crazy.

JC

You nailed it.

The vast majority of M2CS will never sniff a track. Ironic, considering the more ‘track-focused’ cars get, the more they tend to sit in the garage.

Regarding your grammar question . . . you were ‘binge watching.’

///AVM

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

I'm at 7:41.5. History $$$ would suggest my optimism is flawed

Aha, so sublimenal you want your forthcoming M2 CS to outrun the first generation Porsche Cayman GT4 (981) (manual, of course - no PDK): 07:42 clocked by Sport Auto (Christian Gebhardt) in 2015.

BMW M lap times (source: here)

• 7:27.88 = F82 M4 GTS
• 7:35 (previously 7:38) = F80 M3 CS + F82 M4 CS
• 7:38.92 = F90 M5
• 7:4?.?? = F87 M2 CS
• 7:48 = E92 M3 GTS
• 7:50 = E46 M3 CSL + F87 M2 Competition (BMW)
• 7:52 = F82 M4
• 7:52.36 = F87 M2 Competition (Sport Auto)
• 7:54 = F10 M5 Competition
• 7:58 = F87 M2
• 8:05 = E92 M3
• 8:07 = E52 Z8
• 8:09 = E63 M6
• 8:12 = E86 Z4 M Coupé
• 8:13 = E60 M5
• 8:15 = E82 1M
• 8:22 = E46 M3
• 8:22 = E36/8 M3
• 8:35 = E36 M3
• 8:50 = E30 M3

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Aha, so sublimenal you want your forthcoming M2 CS to outrun the first generation Porsche Cayman GT4 (981) (manual, of course - no PDK): 07:42 clocked by Sport Auto (Christian Gebhardt) in 2015.

BMW M lap times (source: here)

• 7:27.88 = F82 M4 GTS
• 7:35 (previously 7:38) = F80 M3 CS + F82 M4 CS
• 7:38.92 = F90 M5
• 7:4?.?? = F87 M2 CS
• 7:48 = E92 M3 GTS
• 7:50 = E46 M3 CSL + F87 M2 Competition (BMW)
• 7:52 = F82 M4
• 7:52.36 = F87 M2 Competition (Sport Auto)
• 7:54 = F10 M5 Competition
• 7:58 = F87 M2
• 8:05 = E92 M3
• 8:07 = E52 Z8
• 8:09 = E63 M6
• 8:12 = E86 Z4 M Coupé
• 8:13 = E60 M5
• 8:15 = E82 1M
• 8:22 = E46 M3
• 8:22 = E36/8 M3
• 8:35 = E36 M3
• 8:50 = E30 M3

Absolutely! It will make me feel good each day that I'm sitting in bumper to bumper traffic knowing just how badass my car could be if I were a professional driver using it as intended. OR Will I be using it as intended...hmmmm. Can't makefun of soccer mom's anymore when you're driving a car for soccer (football) dads.

[243Racing]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Front lip, rear spoiler, rear diffuser, and wheels already are available. Or at least the part numbers are available.

Link? Wheels are 763Ms right?

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by BeastieBombRacing

Link? Wheels are 763Ms right?

https://www.bmwpartspros.com/p-bmw-oem-m2-cs-carbon-fiber-front-lip-51118078455

https://www.bmwpartspros.com/p-bmw-oem-m2-cs-carbon-fiber-rear-spoiler-51628085400

Yes the wheels are the 763M

[SeanWRT]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Aha, so sublimenal you want your forthcoming M2 CS to outrun the first generation Porsche Cayman GT4 (981) (manual, of course - no PDK): 07:42 clocked by Sport Auto (Christian Gebhardt) in 2015.

BMW M lap times (source: here)

• 7:27.88 = F82 M4 GTS
• 7:35 (previously 7:38) = F80 M3 CS + F82 M4 CS
• 7:38.92 = F90 M5
• 7:4?.?? = F87 M2 CS
• 7:48 = E92 M3 GTS
• 7:50 = E46 M3 CSL + F87 M2 Competition (BMW)
• 7:52 = F82 M4
• 7:52.36 = F87 M2 Competition (Sport Auto)
• 7:54 = F10 M5 Competition
• 7:58 = F87 M2
• 8:05 = E92 M3
• 8:07 = E52 Z8
• 8:09 = E63 M6
• 8:12 = E86 Z4 M Coupé
• 8:13 = E60 M5
• 8:15 = E82 1M
• 8:22 = E46 M3
• 8:22 = E36/8 M3
• 8:35 = E36 M3
• 8:50 = E30 M3

From the list, the M4 CS is 8s faster than the M2 CS. So is the M2 CS than M2C. Those numbers are not lining up well.

It'd only make sense for M2CS to be closer to M4CS, given the same tyre (albeit narrower), similar suspension setup and power rating.

For a long track like the ring, power, suspension and tyre upgrade combined easily get you 10+s, no mention they come from factory as a complete package plus chassis tuning. That being said, M2C can get there at a fairly low cost, but stock for stock that's just how it is.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Aha, so sublimenal you want your forthcoming M2 CS to outrun the first generation Porsche Cayman GT4 (981) (manual, of course - no PDK): 07:42 clocked by Sport Auto (Christian Gebhardt) in 2015.

BMW M lap times (source: here)

• 7:27.88 = F82 M4 GTS
• 7:35 (previously 7:38) = F80 M3 CS + F82 M4 CS
• 7:38.92 = F90 M5
• 7:4?.?? = F87 M2 CS
• 7:48 = E92 M3 GTS
• 7:50 = E46 M3 CSL + F87 M2 Competition (BMW)
• 7:52 = F82 M4
• 7:52.36 = F87 M2 Competition (Sport Auto)
• 7:54 = F10 M5 Competition
• 7:58 = F87 M2
• 8:05 = E92 M3
• 8:07 = E52 Z8
• 8:09 = E63 M6
• 8:12 = E86 Z4 M Coupé
• 8:13 = E60 M5
• 8:15 = E82 1M
• 8:22 = E46 M3
• 8:22 = E36/8 M3
• 8:35 = E36 M3
• 8:50 = E30 M3

According to numbers cited for the 718 GT4, it turned the Nurburgring in 7:28, while lap time for the 981 GT4 is commonly cited as 7:40.

Artemis, I will not dispute the 7:42 time you cite for the 981 GT4. In fact, I find it interesting that the reported 7:40 lap time for the 981 GT4 most often comes in conjunction with the 718 GTS, also cited to turn the Nurburgring in 7:40 (718 S in 7:42).

Completely irrelevant, really, to 99.9 percent of owners what professional drivers do on the Nurburgring. Nonetheless, enthusiasts love to gravitate to track times. My point being, I think Porsche is very conscientious of what lap times their various models are posting, just as they are to 0-60 times.

I suspect BMW is no different, so the M2CS MUST turn the Nurburgring faster than the M2C even if, for some reason, it does not. Perhaps being 'faster' is not even enough, and significantly faster required . . . whatever 'significantly' equates to in terms of faster? Maybe that is why we do not yet have an official answer to the M2CS Nurburgring lap time???

///AVM

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/pors...-drive-review/

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-drive-review/

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

According to numbers cited for the 718 GT4, it turned the Nurburgring in 7:28, while lap time for the 981 GT4 is commonly cited as 7:40.
Artemis, I will not dispute the 7:42 time you cite for the 981 GT4. In fact, I find it interesting that the reported 7:40 lap time for the 981 GT4 most often comes in conjunction with the 718 GTS, also cited to turn the Nurburgring in 7:40 (718 S in 7:42).

Very likely 07:40 is the Porsche Cayman GT4 (981) Ring laptime quoted by Porsche (factory drivers).

As I indicated in my post, the 07:42 Ring laptime was clocked by Sport Auto (Christian Gebhardt) in 2015. And video footage of that lap exists (07:42.39):

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Very likely 07:40 is the Porsche Cayman GT4 (981) Ring laptime quoted by Porsche.

As I indicated in my post, the 07:42 Ring laptime of the Porsche Cayman GT4 (981) was clocked by Sport Auto (Christian Gebhardt) in 2015. And video footage of that lap exists (07:42.39):

Artemis

Thank you for sharing.

Watching that video made me remember there is another fly in the ointment, which is MT vs DCT/PDK.

///AVM

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Artemis
Thank you for sharing.
Watching that video made me remember there is another fly in the ointment, which is MT vs DCT/PDK.
///AVM

Be happy that the US-spec M2 CS will sound less muffled than the EUR-spec M2 CS.

According to BMW M the M2 CS features "an even more emotional sound with a distinctive racing character" compared to the M2C.

From the M2 CS press materials (see here and here):

• "Bringing the car’s design to a stunning conclusion is the redesigned dual-branch exhaust system with its quartet of stainless-steel tailpipes, M logo and M2 CS badge. [...]
  Dual-branch exhaust system with two electrically controlled flaps.
  Offering even greater aesthetic and aural appeal than in the BMW M2 Competition, the exhaust system has a dual-branch design and concludes in a familiar quartet of tailpipes, each bearing the M logo. Two electrically controlled flaps ensure the BMW M2 CS emits a sound worthy of a BMW M model. The M Engine Dynamics Control function with direct selection buttons in the centre console allows drivers to vary the engine note further through their driving mode selection."
• "The exhaust system – which represents an upgrade on the BMW M2 Competition’s both visually and aurally – has a dual-branch design and sports the quad tailpipes familiar to BMW M fans. Two electrically controlled flaps ensure that the BMW M2 CS develops an engine note fitting the BMW M profile. And the driver can make further adjustments to the soundtrack through their choice of M Engine Dynamics Control driving mode and using direct selection buttons on the centre console."
• "Dual-branch exhaust system enhances aesthetic and aural appeal, features two electrically controlled flaps and four stainless steel tailpipes bearing the M logo."
• "Racing character: The M Sports Exhaust System.
  The M sports exhaust system of the M2 Competition and M2 CS provides an M typical sporty sound that can be altered by selecting the driving mode. In the M2 CS, the system has been further refined in terms of appearance and sound and delivers an even more emotional sound with a distinctive racing character. All four of its tailpipes carry the M logo."

M2 CS exhaust sound (static display - L.A. Auto Show) - US version (no Otto Particulate Filter).

(source: BMWBlog - see here)

About car sound in general, see also this video (note: Rory Reid mentions Sep 1, 2017 as key date, but AFAIK it's Sep 1, 2018):

[amrazM]

its probably identical in speed or slower than the standard car which is why they are not plastering a lap time all over commercials.

[Bimmed Out]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Same S55 engine, same torque and a whopping 39 more hp as compared to the M2C . . . hmmm?

Read the following over and over again. . . Same chassis and same weight as M2C . . . hmmm?

Adaptive suspension is a nice feature, but an advantage over M2C suspension on track . . . hmmm? Dedicated M3 and M4 trackers all over this forum are quick to enter the aftermarket suspension line.

Tires are an important factor on the track. . . if we are talking track advantage, I guess the option of Cup 2 tires with M2CS is an advantage. Wonder how many M2CS purchasers will go with the Cup 2 tire option?

Biggest question is how many M2CS purchasers will ever even go to the track? I am making an educated guess in stating probably no more than the population Porsche GT model consumers.

Track reviews are not required. . . for that matter, press releases are not required. BMW has done nothing with the M2CS to revolutionize the 2-series chassis, let alone the M2C.

///AVM

It's difficult to balance all of your criticisms of the M2 CS with the fact that you selected and purchased the most expensive version of the 2.5L 4-cylinder 718 Cayman. How did you justify paying up for such a car? Does the huge increase of 15hp get your jollies going? Or was it the extra 44 pounds? Or maybe it was the ultra-limited production ... oh wait, that's the M2 CS.

[medphysdave]

The LW performance M2 says everything that needs to be said about a modified M2C vs the CS. Add $20k to the base price of the C and you can have a car 4s faster than the CS on a short track and hangs with cars in a different league. The extra 100+ Nm gets it up out of the corners a lot quicker. No real weight savings.

Trust me, I've thought about it so I can get an SO M2, but I just don't want to hassle with buying aftermarket parts, paying/trusting someone to install them, tuning. Finally if I decide to sell, taking a bath on all the mods, or parting it out. I don't have the space to store the original parts, and no time to wrench = $$$.

The $20k LW cost didn't include the bespoke parts on that car. I'd wager the true difference between the two is about $10k. $11.5k if you decide to tune the CS to the LW power levels.

The delta is worth it to me for warranty, 1 of 450 in the US, and not spending months building and tuning.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by kepler

It's difficult to balance all of your criticisms of the M2 CS with the fact that you selected and purchased the most expensive version of the 2.5L 4-cylinder 718 Cayman. How did you justify paying up for such a car? Does the huge increase of 15hp get your jollies going? Or was it the extra 44 pounds? Or maybe it was the ultra-limited production ... oh wait, that's the M2 CS.

Ahhhm, that's kind of the point . . . I have no need, nor ever attempted to 'justify' my GTS purchase decision with you or anyone else.

For the record, however, I 'paid down' to get all the features I wanted in my GTS, as compared to optioning out as many of the same features as possible in an S model. It is not even possible to fully option-out an S to a GTS, but you would pay more for the S trying to get to the GTS.

Also, please point out where I ever 'criticized' the M2CS? Do not waste your time, I have never criticized the M2CS. I simply do not share any love for the M2CS over what the M2C has to offer for some $30K+ less.

///AVM